Opinion: Travis Etienne is the best RB prospect since Barkley

[dynastyninja]

Judging from his RB coach it was more a lack of toughness than it was him being injury prone.

The things these guys are expected to play through is pretty crazy by laymen's standards.

I go back and forth between what I think about the Lions right now, but their view on Swift always confounded me.

Duce Staley seemingly got off on Jamaal Williams fighting defenders for a 4-yard run and probably preferred that to Swift avoiding contact on a 20-yard run. Sure, Jamaal was playing tougher, but Swift was more productive, which should matter more.

I believe it had more to do with Swift not playing through injuries that many other NFL RBs do.

“Injuries happen, but one of the things Swift and I had a conversation about is you’ve got to be able to play through some of these injuries as a running back,” Staley said, via the Detroit Free Press. “We all know there’s a difference between being injured and hurt. As soon as you step in this building as a running back, Day One training camp, you’re not going to feel the same. There will be some things you have to fight through.”

Swift has yet to play more than 13 games in an NFL season.

I think injuries and toughness were absolutely a thing, but only giving him 99 carries through 14 games in a season where he average 5.5 ypc is inexcusable to me.

There was a clip in Hard Knocks where they're watching film and Staley gets on Swift for running out of bounds instead of fighting through his defender. What always got me was it was after a good run (15+ yards I think). It was that clip + his previous season's usage that got me wanting to trade Swift.

Staley surely still wishes he were out there playing RB and likely romanticizes some elements of how running back is played (toughness & fight). My opinion is he placed too much emphasis on it and not enough on what mattered most (on-field production).

Injuries and toughness were definitely a problem. I'm just of the opinion that they over-valued the intangibles.

I have no special insight into the situation, though, so not that I have any idea what I'm talking about. Just my armchair assessment. I also have no idea how much Staley decided which RB was playing on any given play (could've been the OC), so this whole thing could be null and void.

[ericanadian]

Judging from his RB coach it was more a lack of toughness than it was him being injury prone.

The things these guys are expected to play through is pretty crazy by laymen's standards.

I go back and forth between what I think about the Lions right now, but their view on Swift always confounded me.

Duce Staley seemingly got off on Jamaal Williams fighting defenders for a 4-yard run and probably preferred that to Swift avoiding contact on a 20-yard run. Sure, Jamaal was playing tougher, but Swift was more productive, which should matter more.

I believe it had more to do with Swift not playing through injuries that many other NFL RBs do.

“Injuries happen, but one of the things Swift and I had a conversation about is you’ve got to be able to play through some of these injuries as a running back,” Staley said, via the Detroit Free Press. “We all know there’s a difference between being injured and hurt. As soon as you step in this building as a running back, Day One training camp, you’re not going to feel the same. There will be some things you have to fight through.”

Swift has yet to play more than 13 games in an NFL season.

And yet, he never missed a game in college and I’ve never found anything to suggest he was soft in college. Lions also have a history of major injuries to their running backs. Williams was the first back since 2013 to break 200 carries. They’ve had a string of young backs with high expectations who were derailed by injuries. Kerryon, Abdullah, Leshoure, Best, Smith, Jones. They haven’t had a successful Day 1-2 running back pick since Barry Sanders. Reuben Droughns was technically theirs, but he didn’t find success until he went to Denver. Even FAs seemingly go there to die. Reggie Bush had one good season and then his career was basically over at 28. Adrian Peterson finally reached his end in Detroit at 35. LeGarrette Blount was done after his year in Detroit at 29. I get that these are ages where guys are nearing the end of the road (or in AD’s case are way past it), but Detroit is a running back wasteland and has been since Barry Sanders retired. It definitely made me have a bit more respect for Jamaal Williams and hopefully he holds up.

We’ll see how Montgomery and Gibbs play out as they’re the highest draft capital and FA value we’ve seen head to Detroit in a long time. However, I’m not confident in either of these guys ability to stay healthy there. Hopefully Swift got out early enough to have a career somewhere else.

[Bronco Billy]

I go back and forth between what I think about the Lions right now, but their view on Swift always confounded me.

Duce Staley seemingly got off on Jamaal Williams fighting defenders for a 4-yard run and probably preferred that to Swift avoiding contact on a 20-yard run. Sure, Jamaal was playing tougher, but Swift was more productive, which should matter more.

I believe it had more to do with Swift not playing through injuries that many other NFL RBs do.

“Injuries happen, but one of the things Swift and I had a conversation about is you’ve got to be able to play through some of these injuries as a running back,” Staley said, via the Detroit Free Press. “We all know there’s a difference between being injured and hurt. As soon as you step in this building as a running back, Day One training camp, you’re not going to feel the same. There will be some things you have to fight through.”

Swift has yet to play more than 13 games in an NFL season.

This is all about tolerance for pain. Some guys just have a high tolerance for pain and others have a low tolerance. It’s not something that can be taught and learned.

Staley understands that in football every yard counts. It’s the difference between drives dying early and continuing down the field. It’s the difference between a FG hitting the crossbar and going through the uprights. It’s football theory that goes to controlling time of possession and field position allowing a team to dictate the flow of a game and wear out opposing Ds.

Aside from linemen, no players take a beating on a more regular basis than RBs. RBs have to understand that to stay on the field that they have to play hurt and deal with the hurts that don’t meaningfully diminish their capability. Some guys just don’t have the mental toughness to play through the little hurts. It’s a “mind over matter” thing. Swift just seems to be one of those guys that gets pushed out of a game by hurts that other players can play through. It doesn’t make him a bad guy, it’s just part of his makeup like speed and reaction time and vision.

It’s something that teammates and coaches take note of - it’s a dependability issue. Guys who are softer just aren’t going to get the opportunities that other tougher guys do. It’s the nature of what is a violent game. If your linemen are getting the crap beaten out of them and are still driving, but you’re on the sideline because a bruise hurts, it’s something everyone sees and takes note of.

[murphysxm]

there's no threat to his touches

Except for the fact that he may not sniff a carry in the red zone with Tank in town....

[Pullo Vision]

Do you still believe he has a three down skillset?

I do. I also like the fact that he's coming into the best chance he's ever had as a starter in this league. He has a good few years of experience, he's past his recovery season, there's no threat to his touches, the offense is finally clicking, and he's entering that prime age for a RB. It's hard to spot any down sides.

This is the year for Etienne. I don't know what the ceiling is, but I easily see top 12 potential.

Definitely see being optimistic about the injury recovery and the offense's trajectory. I know J Hasty isn't a big name, but he set career highs in carries and competed with Etienne in receiving work, despite barely doing anything when JRob was on the team. All of that with the current coaching staff, and not mentioning Bigsby.

I can certainly cite numerous statistics to highlight the downsides. Given his rookie year was washed by injury, it's easy to dismiss his underwhelming year 2 stats as being due to the recovery, but there are college stats that reinforce those concerns.

My concern is the three down work, both usage and skillset (meaning potential). I don't care if we're talking half PPR, full PPR or non PPR- all that's irrelevant if the current staff sees and uses him as a 2 down back. You can dismiss the results last year as his first year coming back from injury, but the usage was definitely a concern.

So, the question is, does his only year on an NFL field reflect a limitation of his skills (can't catch) or is there reason for optimism that he can be a catcher, either this year or with another staff?

[Bronco Billy]

there's no threat to his touches

Except for the fact that he may not sniff a carry in the red zone with Tank in town....

I think we need to quantify what kind of touches we’re talking about. If we’re talking about him repeating last year and getting 255 touches as an up-and-down FF RB2 then I’d agree. That would allow Bigsby to absorb somewhere in the neighborhood of 155+ touches, take some of the heavy lifting off Etienne’s plate, and allow Etienne to get higher quality touches between the 20s that better match his skill set then I’d agree. If we’re expecting Etienne to take a leap in touches that puts him into FF RB1 territory then I think that’s highly debatable.

[ericanadian]

Do you still believe he has a three down skillset?

I do. I also like the fact that he's coming into the best chance he's ever had as a starter in this league. He has a good few years of experience, he's past his recovery season, there's no threat to his touches, the offense is finally clicking, and he's entering that prime age for a RB. It's hard to spot any down sides.

This is the year for Etienne. I don't know what the ceiling is, but I easily see top 12 potential.

Definitely see being optimistic about the injury recovery and the offense's trajectory. I know J Hasty isn't a big name, but he set career highs in carries and competed with Etienne in receiving work, despite barely doing anything when JRob was on the team. All of that with the current coaching staff, and not mentioning Bigsby.

I can certainly cite numerous statistics to highlight the downsides. Given his rookie year was washed by injury, it's easy to dismiss his underwhelming year 2 stats as being due to the recovery, but there are college stats that reinforce those concerns.

My concern is the three down work, both usage and skillset (meaning potential). I don't care if we're talking half PPR, full PPR or non PPR- all that's irrelevant if the current staff sees and uses him as a 2 down back. You can dismiss the results last year as his first year coming back from injury, but the usage was definitely a concern.

So, the question is, does his only year on an NFL field reflect a limitation of his skills (can't catch) or is there reason for optimism that he can be a catcher, either this year or with another staff?

Etienne isn’t a good pass blocker. Maybe he can’t catch or run routes either, but I would suspect the pass blocking is the primary reason that he’s not getting more opportunities as a receiver.

[Sriracha]

And yet, he never missed a game in college and I’ve never found anything to suggest he was soft in college...

The SEC is the closest thing to the NFL in college.. but it's still a far cry from the bigger/faster/stronger athletes you are taking hits from in the NFL.

There are more game and more intensity in practices.. it's very possible Swift could handle a shared workload in college but can't in the NFL.

[tstafford]

Etienne isn’t a good pass blocker. Maybe he can’t catch or run routes either, but I would suspect the pass blocking is the primary reason that he’s not getting more opportunities as a receiver.

I believe it's less about pass blocking and more about receiving ability both hands and route running. When healthy he is on the field a lot - in some games like 85% of the the offensive plays. It's not like they take him off for a third down back who is a good pass blocker.

Regardless I'm perplexed that folks think ETN is going to see a big gain in FF production. I see no reason to believe that. The receiving options have improved, Engram remained w/ the team and unless ETN gets more targets there's basically no way for him to be more productive. He's also likely to be out played by Bigsby in short yardage / goal line work.

He's fine. But he's a FF RB2 and he isn't going to be more than that in '23.

[Sriracha]

Etienne isn’t a good pass blocker. Maybe he can’t catch or run routes either, but I would suspect the pass blocking is the primary reason that he’s not getting more opportunities as a receiver.

I believe it's less about pass blocking and more about receiving ability both hands and route running. When healthy he is on the field a lot - in some games like 85% of the the offensive plays. It's not like they take him off for a third down back who is a good pass blocker.

Regardless I'm perplexed that folks think ETN is going to see a big gain in FF production. I see no reason to believe that. The receiving options have improved, Engram remained w/ the team and unless ETN gets more targets there's basically no way for him to be more productive. He's also likely to be out played by Bigsby in short yardage / goal line work.

He's fine. But he's a FF RB2 and he isn't going to be more than that in '23.

ETN had a 59% snap share last season.

[skinfanjon]

I go back and forth between what I think about the Lions right now, but their view on Swift always confounded me.

Duce Staley seemingly got off on Jamaal Williams fighting defenders for a 4-yard run and probably preferred that to Swift avoiding contact on a 20-yard run. Sure, Jamaal was playing tougher, but Swift was more productive, which should matter more.

I believe it had more to do with Swift not playing through injuries that many other NFL RBs do.

“Injuries happen, but one of the things Swift and I had a conversation about is you’ve got to be able to play through some of these injuries as a running back,” Staley said, via the Detroit Free Press. “We all know there’s a difference between being injured and hurt. As soon as you step in this building as a running back, Day One training camp, you’re not going to feel the same. There will be some things you have to fight through.”

Swift has yet to play more than 13 games in an NFL season.

This is all about tolerance for pain. Some guys just have a high tolerance for pain and others have a low tolerance. It’s not something that can be taught and learned.

Staley understands that in football every yard counts. It’s the difference between drives dying early and continuing down the field. It’s the difference between a FG hitting the crossbar and going through the uprights. It’s football theory that goes to controlling time of possession and field position allowing a team to dictate the flow of a game and wear out opposing Ds.

Aside from linemen, no players take a beating on a more regular basis than RBs. RBs have to understand that to stay on the field that they have to play hurt and deal with the hurts that don’t meaningfully diminish their capability. Some guys just don’t have the mental toughness to play through the little hurts. It’s a “mind over matter” thing. Swift just seems to be one of those guys that gets pushed out of a game by hurts that other players can play through. It doesn’t make him a bad guy, it’s just part of his makeup like speed and reaction time and vision.

It’s something that teammates and coaches take note of - it’s a dependability issue. Guys who are softer just aren’t going to get the opportunities that other tougher guys do. It’s the nature of what is a violent game. If your linemen are getting the crap beaten out of them and are still driving, but you’re on the sideline because a bruise hurts, it’s something everyone sees and takes note of.

Did you write this 30 years ago? Analytics have made it clear it’s more about situational football. There’s a time when it’s important to fight for an extra yard, but it’s definitely not every play. Not even most plays. If you just ripped off a 15 yard run for a 1st down, that’s the worst possible time to lower your shoulder for a yard. All that matters there is you got the new set of downs. Preserve the body so you can do it again.

Swift was perfect in that scenario.

[Bronco Billy]

I go back and forth between what I think about the Lions right now, but their view on Swift always confounded me.



I believe it had more to do with Swift not playing through injuries that many other NFL RBs do.



Swift has yet to play more than 13 games in an NFL season.

This is all about tolerance for pain. Some guys just have a high tolerance for pain and others have a low tolerance. It’s not something that can be taught and learned.

Staley understands that in football every yard counts. It’s the difference between drives dying early and continuing down the field. It’s the difference between a FG hitting the crossbar and going through the uprights. It’s football theory that goes to controlling time of possession and field position allowing a team to dictate the flow of a game and wear out opposing Ds.

Aside from linemen, no players take a beating on a more regular basis than RBs. RBs have to understand that to stay on the field that they have to play hurt and deal with the hurts that don’t meaningfully diminish their capability. Some guys just don’t have the mental toughness to play through the little hurts. It’s a “mind over matter” thing. Swift just seems to be one of those guys that gets pushed out of a game by hurts that other players can play through. It doesn’t make him a bad guy, it’s just part of his makeup like speed and reaction time and vision.

It’s something that teammates and coaches take note of - it’s a dependability issue. Guys who are softer just aren’t going to get the opportunities that other tougher guys do. It’s the nature of what is a violent game. If your linemen are getting the crap beaten out of them and are still driving, but you’re on the sideline because a bruise hurts, it’s something everyone sees and takes note of.

Did you write this 30 years ago? Analytics have made it clear it’s more about situational football. There’s a time when it’s important to fight for an extra yard, but it’s definitely not every play. Not even most plays. If you just ripped off a 15 yard run for a 1st down, that’s the worst possible time to lower your shoulder for a yard. All that matters there is you got the new set of downs. Preserve the body so you can do it again.

Swift was perfect in that scenario.

Are yards in the NFL less important now than they were 30 years ago? Given your scenario, if my RB just busted off 15 yards snd he’s now in the 3rd level of the D going up against what’s left in front of him and he chooses to just sashay OB instead of trying to extend his run further, then yeah I’ve got a few cross words for him after I give him a scratch behind the ears for getting the 15 in the first place.

Every yard matters, right up until you cross the goal line, you need to stop the clock at the end of a half, or you’re trying to run out the clock at the end of the game.

[skinfanjon]

This is all about tolerance for pain. Some guys just have a high tolerance for pain and others have a low tolerance. It’s not something that can be taught and learned.

Staley understands that in football every yard counts. It’s the difference between drives dying early and continuing down the field. It’s the difference between a FG hitting the crossbar and going through the uprights. It’s football theory that goes to controlling time of possession and field position allowing a team to dictate the flow of a game and wear out opposing Ds.

Aside from linemen, no players take a beating on a more regular basis than RBs. RBs have to understand that to stay on the field that they have to play hurt and deal with the hurts that don’t meaningfully diminish their capability. Some guys just don’t have the mental toughness to play through the little hurts. It’s a “mind over matter” thing. Swift just seems to be one of those guys that gets pushed out of a game by hurts that other players can play through. It doesn’t make him a bad guy, it’s just part of his makeup like speed and reaction time and vision.

It’s something that teammates and coaches take note of - it’s a dependability issue. Guys who are softer just aren’t going to get the opportunities that other tougher guys do. It’s the nature of what is a violent game. If your linemen are getting the crap beaten out of them and are still driving, but you’re on the sideline because a bruise hurts, it’s something everyone sees and takes note of.

Did you write this 30 years ago? Analytics have made it clear it’s more about situational football. There’s a time when it’s important to fight for an extra yard, but it’s definitely not every play. Not even most plays. If you just ripped off a 15 yard run for a 1st down, that’s the worst possible time to lower your shoulder for a yard. All that matters there is you got the new set of downs. Preserve the body so you can do it again.

Swift was perfect in that scenario.

Are yards in the NFL less important now than they were 30 years ago? Given your scenario, if my RB just busted off 15 yards snd he’s now in the 3rd level of the D going up against what’s left in front of him and he chooses to just sashay OB instead of trying to extend his run further, then yeah I’ve got a few cross words for him after I give him a scratch behind the ears for getting the 15 in the first place.

Every yard matters, right up until you cross the goal line, you need to stop the clock at the end of a half, or you’re trying to run out the clock at the end of the game.

What do you mean, my scenario? You didn’t address it. You responded by citing a completely different scenario than the play in question. What you just described is an open field, make a guy miss situation, which is obviously worth attempting. The Swift play was literally lowering the shoulder for maybe a yard right at the sideline. Or a fumble, could just as easily be a fumble instead of a yard. Or injury.

I guess your same take would apply to QBs also, yes? Surely they are not exempt from spearing themselves into the helmet of a linebacker, doing everything they can to turn what’s about to be 2nd and 5 into 2nd and 4 instead Every yard is sacred. No sliding. RG3 style.

If that something about that doesn’t seem right, then just realize some element of that applies to other ball carriers and receivers at various times, too.

[mild]

Makes you think:

Pre-NFL Draft fantasy football ADP:
Kenneth Walker (RB6)
Travis Etienne (RB12)

*Seahawks and Jaguars both draft an RB on day two*

Current ADP:
Walker (RB16)
Etienne (RB13)

Are Etienne owners really less scared of Bigsby than Walker owners are of Charb?

There was a time when Tank was considered one of the pre-eminent talents of the 2023 draft (back in 2021 basically) and there are some around here even now that are still extremely excited for him.

Seems to me Etienne is still operating in a bear-market ADP wise, but man... if it starts going more Tanks' way in the early going... it could get wild in here.

[Sriracha]

Makes you think:

Pre-NFL Draft fantasy football ADP:
Kenneth Walker (RB6)
Travis Etienne (RB12)

*Seahawks and Jaguars both draft an RB on day two*

Current ADP:
Walker (RB16)
Etienne (RB13)

Are Etienne owners really less scared of Bigsby than Walker owners are of Charb?

There was a time when Tank was considered one of the pre-eminent talents of the 2023 draft (back in 2021 basically) and there are some around here even now that are still extremely excited for him.

Seems to me Etienne is still operating in a bear-market ADP wise, but man... if it starts going more Tanks' way in the early going... it could get wild in here.

Tank may end up surprising people.. but how some felt about him over a year ago has little bearing on him now.. Unless you feel like extending those same feelings towards guys like Isaiah Spiller, Zach Evans and Sean Tucker.

There is a chasm of difference between 2nd and 3rd round draft capital at the RB position.