Is it time to pump the brakes on the Kelvin Benjamin hate?

[acclizal]

In watching that game and the 22 tape IMO Funchess looked like the faster more fluid WR. He also seemed to separate early and often but the problem is that it seemed he wasn't even in the progression. Time will tell but from a movement stand point I don't think KB looked good almost like he was in sand. Now I know all the points I brought up were subjective in nature but that is what makes this game fun.

[ArrylT]

I'm about as massive of a KB "fanboy" as it gets, but you made some solid counter-arguments. The only part I disagree with is the paragraph I bolded with regards to the gameplan shifting away from KB if the Panthers continue to lose games like the one on Thursday. I get the general idea you're implying, it makes sense. But I don't think it is relevant or likely in KB and the Panthers' case. They lost that game because their kicker choked upon getting iced, after their QB got rattled and thrown off his game by enough head hunting plays. Yeah, we can say "Well, if Carolina keeps losing games where KB gets double digit targets, obviously we'd expect Ron Rivera to adjust his gameplan accordingly and stop Cam from force-feeding KB". And of course football is after all a team game. But the bottom line is that Thursday night, even with poor Cam's brain being turned into scrambled eggs by the dying seconds of the 4th quarter, if Gano would have put that one through, Carolina pulls off the away victory against the reigning SB champs and what is heralded as the best D in the league. But Gano choked.

So sure, maybe Rivera will tell Cam to spread it around a bit more going forward. But KB getting force-fed Thursday night had ultimately no ill effects on the Panthers' chances of ultimately winning the football game.

Absolutely. I was not saying it was going to happen - just that the there is the possibility, IF the Panthers were to possibly go down that road. I certainly dont think that is the case after just one game, just that it is one of many possible factors to consider for the rest of the season.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with Benjamin being labelled a WR2 (as he was by a few earlier in the thread and in the past). I know that may come of as a negative - oh he is only a WR2 - but there is a distinct difference between a WR2 in 2016 and say 2006-2009. Back then WR13 season (aka the top WR2) put up stuff like 73, 1028, 5 TDs and you were lucky if 15 WRs hit the 1000 yard mark, or 70 Receptions. However nowadays there are 24-26 WRs who put up those numbers, so the measuring stick has changed. WRs like Maclin, Hurns, & Decker are putting up seasons as mid WR2s that would once have cast them as mid to late WR1s.

In other words, the expectations/floor/ceiling of a WR2 is a lot different now than it was 10 years ago. So to cast Benjamin as a WR2 is not really a negative per say, but rather an acknowledgement that there are a ton of WRs capable of putting up WR1 seasons, and that there are simply too many of them to make the odds favor Benjamin having a WR1 season. However enough games like this one, and that will certainly change and he will go from a mid to high WR2 projection to a low end WR1.

[Bot101]

I think as a whole the fantasy community undervalues the chemistry and relationship between a QB and his WR. Lets review some examples going on right now or that we've heard the drum beat during the off season:

Jarvis Landry or DeVante Parker?
I think the split was 70/30 in favor of Parker becoming Tannehills new favorite target. Ignoring the issues with Parker right now regarding his health, what have we seen? Tannehill continuing to feed Landry and Parker looking like hes reading a different playbook.

Alshon Jeffery or Kevin White?
This one strikes me personally because I tried to trade Jeffery to a couple people but I was always met with the same response: "White will take over". Based on what? Hes more athletic? Do you think Jay Cutler gives a flying crap about that? Nope, hes going to feed Jeffery because he trusts Jeffery.

Now we have KB or Funchess?
We saw very clearly that KB and Cam have a relationship on thurs. Cam fed KB and Funchess was invisible. Could that change? Perhaps, but as long as KB continues to improve hes the #1.

I think in all 3 of those cases we see a common theme: Whatever new toy the fantasy community latches on to is going to be the #1. The only scenario that I see Parker, White or Funchess taking over #1 duties is an injury or trade to the current #1.

[TheSpidersFromMars]

Well firstly, Kelvin Benjamin is not Calvin Johnson - and doesnt profile like Calvin Johnson.

Secondly, while I am not a "hater" there are other red flags that may keep Benjamin from being a Perennial WR1 - such as the fact that he does not have a lot of college production. Obviously he is not a bust like so many in the past - but it is still something that warrants consideration because his game is not as developed as many other WRs (maybe it doesnt need to be in that system). Then you add the fact that he has competition for a limited target volume, and a WR who may develop better than him, and finally conditioning concerns (ie limited snaps, increased chance at injury or missed playing time) and even without considering inefficiency there are warts to deal with.

I dont think anyone is trying to say that KB is Calvin Johnson. That post was just trying to say "hey you cant always lean on efficiency numbers when judging a player". I also dont think anyone is trying to lock him in as a WR1 on a championship team either. KB fans are just saying he's been valued as a low end WR2/high end WR3 by a lot of the community, and he should probably be treated as a high end WR2. I personally would have something like this (off the dome).

1. Julio
2. Hopkins
3. OBJ
4. AB
5. Cooper
6. Evans
7. Watkins
8. AJ Green
9. Dez
10. ARob
11. Cooks
12. Benjamin
13. Allen
14. Alshon

[jimjim90]

I think as a whole the fantasy community undervalues the chemistry and relationship between a QB and his WR. Lets review some examples going on right now or that we've heard the drum beat during the off season:

Jarvis Landry or DeVante Parker?
I think the split was 70/30 in favor of Parker becoming Tannehills new favorite target. Ignoring the issues with Parker right now regarding his health, what have we seen? Tannehill continuing to feed Landry and Parker looking like hes reading a different playbook.

Alshon Jeffery or Kevin White?
This one strikes me personally because I tried to trade Jeffery to a couple people but I was always met with the same response: "White will take over". Based on what? Hes more athletic? Do you think Jay Cutler gives a flying crap about that? Nope, hes going to feed Jeffery because he trusts Jeffery.

Now we have KB or Funchess?
We saw very clearly that KB and Cam have a relationship on thurs. Cam fed KB and Funchess was invisible. Could that change? Perhaps, but as long as KB continues to improve hes the #1.

I think in all 3 of those cases we see a common theme: Whatever new toy the fantasy community latches on to is going to be the #1. The only scenario that I see Parker, White or Funchess taking over #1 duties is an injury or trade to the current #1.

I totally agree with this. QBs have their favorite targets, and that's a huge factor in drafting/trading for WRs for me. I'm a Moncrief owner and I like him, but the offseason drumbeat about how he might become the WR1 in Indy seems ludicrous to me, because Luck loves to throw to Hilton. Now I think Moncrief can still be a very productive player, but the only way he outscores TY is if he gets well into double digit TDs, IMO. Sadly, I'm also a White and Parker owner, and the above analyses about those two are spot on to me. Tannehill loves him some Landry and Cutler loves him some Jeffery.

Incidentally, Funchess caught just under 50% of his targets last year, and Olsen was just over 60%. The reality is that guys drop balls, and QBs throw bad passes. But you don't usually hear people taking into account the "bad passes" part of the equation, just the drops. I watched a lot of KB in his rookie year, and Cam (who was clearly not healthy that year) and company threw plenty of bad passes - enough, in fact, that I was beginning to think Cam was not as good as everyone thought and I avoided him in all drafts last year (you can imagine how THAT worked out for me).

[Tsunami]

In watching that game and the 22 tape IMO Funchess looked like the faster more fluid WR. He also seemed to separate early and often but the problem is that it seemed he wasn't even in the progression. Time will tell but from a movement stand point I don't think KB looked good almost like he was in sand. Now I know all the points I brought up were subjective in nature but that is what makes this game fun.

If your subjective opinion is that Devin Funchess looked fast then you need to rely on someone else's opinion, as he is likely the slowest WR in the league by a good margin.

[_yeti]

Not to change the subject from the nuts and bolts of KB vs Funchess, but after being quick to praise KB on this thread I do want to chime in and agree with those who said in regards to OP, not sure there was ever any KB hate. It was more like out of sight out of mind. Similar to Evans (drops + hammy) last year but worse, no one has been talking KB down, more like there just hasn't been much talk about him at all. Now he's back and with production comes the discussion. Don't recall anyone ever saying he couldn't do what he did Thursday night, more he has just not been talked much about lately.

[floz00]

I certainly was not saying that KB is Calvin.
I was simply validating my even simpler point...
A WR can be labeled as "inefficient" and still be a damn good FANTASY WR.

I would argue that efficiency, or lack thereof means NOTHING,the amount of targets is a bigger factor. I also would agree that sometimes, inefficiency can lead to lesser targets, but in KB's case I just don't see it happening. I think we all saw Thursday night that with all of his drops and inefficiencies, Cam still feeds him.We will see...

Another quick point-Many agree that Allen Robinson is a Top 5 Dynasty Receiver(or at least a WR1). His efficiency last year was .533
What made him so good?
He was targeted 151 times...
Now with a healthy Julius Thomas and Allen Hurns doing his thing, we still regard Robinson as a stud.

I'm not saying KB is a stud, but give me a break about all these supposed "concerns".
He will get his targets, and that what really matters.

Take a look at the top 6 receivers last year. Notice anything they all have in common?
Targets, over 150 of them

1. Antonio Brown 193
2. Julio Jones 203
3. Brandon Marshall 173
4. Allen Robinson 151
5. Odell Beckham Jr. 158
6. DeAndre Hopkins 192

How about Jarvis Landry? Why did he have such a productive season last year? Yep, you guessed it-167 targets.
Now people are saying that he won't get as many this year. maybe not, but what if he gets 27 less? He's still at 140 and that seems like a pretty good number to me.
Do you think Tanny has lost is trust in him? I don't.

Just my $.02

[jaykay22]

Not to change the subject from the nuts and bolts of KB vs Funchess, but after being quick to praise KB on this thread I do want to chime in and agree with those who said in regards to OP, not sure there was ever any KB hate. It was more like out of sight out of mind. Similar to Evans (drops + hammy) last year but worse, no one has been talking KB down, more like there just hasn't been much talk about him at all. Now he's back and with production comes the discussion. Don't recall anyone ever saying he couldn't do what he did Thursday night, more he has just not been talked much about lately.

I do agree that the fantasy community operates with a "What have you done for me lately?" mentality, and KB was definitely out of sight out of mind last year. IIf you head to the "Player Debates" section and check out the "KB or Treadwell" thread (should be towards the top of the forum, I bumped it up lol), however, there were a few comments against KB that dogged him.

[jimjim90]

Not to change the subject from the nuts and bolts of KB vs Funchess, but after being quick to praise KB on this thread I do want to chime in and agree with those who said in regards to OP, not sure there was ever any KB hate. It was more like out of sight out of mind. Similar to Evans (drops + hammy) last year but worse, no one has been talking KB down, more like there just hasn't been much talk about him at all. Now he's back and with production comes the discussion. Don't recall anyone ever saying he couldn't do what he did Thursday night, more he has just not been talked much about lately.

I listen to an inordinate amount of podcasts, and there is PLENTY of anti-KB talk. It's been picking up steam all offseason. With DLF Podcast leading the charge, lol!

[Fezzik]

As with any analysis, the result is only as good as the input. You say his targets won't go down... why not? You say his efficiency on targets will improve... why? What specific skill set do you think he will improve that will all of a sudden increase his catch rate by 10%? His ability to run routes/separate?

Mainly because I have eyeballs and can see how much Cam loves throwing KB the ball. But, objectively speaking, he had 12 targets last night. He was targeted on 23% of snaps last night. Julio Jones led the league last year and averaged 22%. And this was on his first game back from an ACL tear, was knocking off rust, and was supposed to have limited snaps. Am I saying we can use this data to lock these numbers in? No, but fantasy sports is a game of judging probabilities. I think between Cam and KB's rapport, KB's usage his rookie year, and his usage last night it is a safe gamble to say its probable that his targets do not decrease by 20%. Also, the 10% number was plainly stated as a fair guess. Is it wrong to think its more probable his efficiency goes up with the more experience he gets?

Checking back in on this one because I had the conversation with a leaguemate and thought about this thread.

Through 7 games, KB's WR20 at present in my league (0.5PPR). This is based on average points per game b/c he's at 7 and some teams haven't had byes yet so they've had 8 games, etc. Anyway, he's averaging 7.1 targets per game, so he's on pace for 114 targets, which would be a 22% decline from his rookie season.

His efficiency is up modestly; from a 50% catch rate in his rookie season to 54%. This is probably b/c he isn't being force fed bad targets in the same volume - haven't gone back to look at 2014 season, don't intend to.

When I originally asked the question of "what's he going to improve at to increase his catch percentage" I wasn't being facetious. I was asking b/c there are aspects of a game that a receiver can improve at and there are things that historically have not improved with coaching.

While Cam did miss a game, Kelvin actually had 9 targets in that game.

[ArrylT]

Interesting note, and one that I think helps show that sometimes statistics can portray an incomplete or false picture

as of week XVI based on standard ppr

K. Benjamin - 57 Receptions, 848 Yards, 6 TDs, 11.85 ppg, 111 Targets

WR X - 71 Receptions, 831 Yards, 4 TDs, 11.87 ppg, 140 Targets

[flyersfan1981]

Interesting note, and one that I think helps show that sometimes statistics can portray an incomplete or false picture

as of week XVI based on standard ppr

K. Benjamin - 57 Receptions, 848 Yards, 6 TDs, 11.85 ppg, 111 Targets

WR X - 71 Receptions, 831 Yards, 4 TDs, 11.87 ppg, 140 Targets

Are we really now comparing KB to Hopkins and using Hopkins' worst year as the argument?

[ArrylT]

Interesting note, and one that I think helps show that sometimes statistics can portray an incomplete or false picture

as of week XVI based on standard ppr

K. Benjamin - 57 Receptions, 848 Yards, 6 TDs, 11.85 ppg, 111 Targets

WR X - 71 Receptions, 831 Yards, 4 TDs, 11.87 ppg, 140 Targets

Are we really now comparing KB to Hopkins and using Hopkins' worst year as the argument?

Thanks for proving that many people dont bother reading the actual post, or pay attention to what was previously said.

[ArrylT]

However if I WAS comparing the 2 - which I am NOT - it should be noted that this is not Hopkins least productive season - that would be his rookie season. It is however Benjamims least productive season - although he only has 2 seasons of production to use.

Rather the point being made is exactly what I said it was - sometimes statistics can be used to to paint very interesting (aka misleading) pictures.