Russell Wilson Discussion Thread - Split with Seahawks?

[kmbryant09]

^^ FantasyFreak ^^

You're probably right, that was a bit childish and I apologize.

I didn't appreciate the manner in which Sriracha, and then another poster, seemed to imply that I had no idea what I was talking about. We can disagree on player value, but when someone is way off-based (just my opinion, I guess) AND simultaneously questioning my knowledge of the situation, it's a double-whammy.

I'm actually a diehard Denver Broncos fan and have watched pretty much every game since 2011. Yes, the entire offense has been held back by sub-par QB play and play-calling. Yes, Noah Fant has untapped potential and raw physical abilities. No, he has never put it together to be any sort of difference-maker at the Tight End position. He has 1 year left on his contract at a very reasonable amount (still starter money), and then a 5th year team option at $7M, which would be borderline top10 money at the position depending on what happens with Njoku / Gesicki / Schultz this year. Basically, he's a cheap starter in 2021, and a somewhat expensive starter in 2022 - nothing that screams value or underpaid based on his production.

Cooper, meanwhile, is at a more expensive and more valued position. He's on a 3-year / $20M per year contract with basically no guarantees. I think that's pretty in-line with his market rate considering it's exactly the same as what Mike Williams just got - they are the same age, with similar injury concerns, but Cooper has a more established resume. And Dallas traded that contract away for a 5th round pick and a 6th round swap.

As for the Hayden Hurst trade, he actually didn't net a true 2nd. Baltimore also sent a 4th and received a 5th back, so Atlanta gave up a 2nd for Hurst and a move up from 5th round to 4th round. And Hurst had an extra year left on his contract that Fant doesn't have. And that trade was wildly criticized for the cost Atlanta gave up (when it was first reported that Hurst was available, the speculation was that he could only net a day 3 pick in return), and in hindsight was a pretty significant overpay. Sure, I guess a similar situation could happen with Fant, but I doubt it.

I guess we'll (likely) never know, but I stand by my assessment that Fant's trade value would be in the 4th round range if he was ever moved this off-season for a straight pick.

[Ice]

I originally was the one who said Seattle got first round value because he was drafted in the first round, is under a rookie contract, and is obviously in the full development stage of his career. I think he is an outstanding prospect who has played in a very vanilla offense with frankly, bad QB play.

Fant's receptions have increased every year and while his yards per reception decreased last year, we should all recognize his QB had a limited arm to push the ball. That said, his Catch percentage was off the charts at a 75.6% catch rate.

He had the same number of receptions as Kyle Pitts last season on 20 fewer targets to put into perspective. He may not be Elite at this point just now entering his 4th year but he is far from a bust.

Denver is fortunate they have another young upside TE in OkwuegBunam to soften the blow of losing Fant.

Fant will help Seattle adding another big extremely fast player to go with DK and Lockett regardless of the QB, which they desperately need.

The NFL highly values the TE position these days and my take is most of us look at TE through a fantasy lens as opposed to how the NFL views these players. We just saw 3 get the franchise tag. Njoku was also a 1st round pick and Geisicki went pretty high in the 2nd.

Fant is being way undervalued by you IMO. He is worth way more than a 4th and if not extended, he will be a lock 5th year option player after this season if he remains healthy.

The NFL loves players like Fant. TE is a very difficult position to play and Fant is getting better not worse given the circumstances.

[Jigga94]

I was amazed we flipped Hurst for a 2nd at the time. Fant has done more than Hurst but I still struggle to see him being valued more than a 3rd rounder in this deal

[Ice]

I was amazed we flipped Hurst for a 2nd at the time. Fant has done more than Hurst but I still struggle to see him being valued more than a 3rd rounder in this deal

As I just stated; The NFL viewing lens is far different than the fantasy viewing lens.

[kmbryant09]

The NFL loves players like Fant. TE is a very difficult position to play and Fant is getting better not worse given the circumstances.

They love players like him so much that they toss them in as a throw-in to a trade - he was the 5th or 6th most valuable asset in that trade package.

There's only two types of players that get dealt for 1st round picks in the NFL:

-Elite players on large contracts
-Very good players on a very reasonable contract

Considering the length of his remaining contract, Fant is not on a very reasonable contract. And based on his production, he is not a very good player in the NFL.

Promising? Yup! But promising players in the last year of their rookie deals don't get dealt for 1st or 2nd round picks.

I'm so surprised at how some of you are valuing Noah Fant - I want to make sure we are talking about NFL value here, right? Not dynasty rookie draft value?

[Jigga94]

I was amazed we flipped Hurst for a 2nd at the time. Fant has done more than Hurst but I still struggle to see him being valued more than a 3rd rounder in this deal

As I just stated; The NFL viewing lens is far different than the fantasy viewing lens.

I'm looking at this through an NFL lens

[Ice]

The NFL loves players like Fant. TE is a very difficult position to play and Fant is getting better not worse given the circumstances.

They love players like him so much that they toss them in as a throw-in to a trade - he was the 5th or 6th most valuable asset in that trade package.

There's only two types of players that get dealt for 1st round picks in the NFL:

-Elite players on large contracts
-Very good players on a very reasonable contract

Considering the length of his remaining contract, Fant is not on a very reasonable contract. And based on his production, he is not a very good player in the NFL.

Promising? Yup! But promising players in the last year of their rookie deals don't get dealt for 1st or 2nd round picks.

I'm so surprised at how some of you are valuing Noah Fant - I want to make sure we are talking about NFL value here, right? Not dynasty rookie draft value?

No need to explain it further; One just has to go to the NFL drafts to see 7 TE's have been drafted in the 1st round in the last 5 years and the majority will fit Fant's athletic profile.

Not sure why you are surprised with so much evidence for you to look at that goes to TE value.

Fant wasn't just some throw in. They were going after a 9 time pro bowl SB bowl winning QB.

[dynastyninja]

Fant = valuable

Back to Russ please

[kmbryant09]

No need to explain it further; One just has to go to the NFL drafts to see 7 TE's have been drafted in the 1st round in the last 5 years and the majority will fit Fant's athletic profile.

But this has nothing to do with where Tight Ends are drafted, that has never been the point. He's 3/4ths of his way through his cost-controlled rookie contract with just 1 year left under reasonable control.

Who in their right mind is paying a 1st, or even a 2nd, for a slightly-above average (and I think that's being generous at this time) TE in the last year of his contract?!?!?!?

To get ahead of the next question, here is a quick list of TE's who I think are better than Fant is today:

Kelce / Kittle / Waller / Andrews / Gronk / Hockenson / Pitts / Goedert / Henry / Gesicki / Knox. I don't think anyone could argue Fant is better today than any of those players. Then there's a list of Fant / Jonnu / Schultz / Njoku / Hooper / Higbee / Irv / Engram and probably another handful of guys I'm not thinking about. So best case scenario, he's the 12th best Tight End in the league. Realistically, he's squarely in the middle of the pack.

I'm completely shocked that we're even debating this. As a Broncos fan, is this really how highly the outsiders value Noah Fant?!?

[Ice]

No need to explain it further; One just has to go to the NFL drafts to see 7 TE's have been drafted in the 1st round in the last 5 years and the majority will fit Fant's athletic profile.

But this has nothing to do with where Tight Ends are drafted, that has never been the point. He's 3/4ths of his way through his cost-controlled rookie contract with just 1 year left under reasonable control.

Who in their right mind is paying a 1st, or even a 2nd, for a slightly-above average (and I think that's being generous at this time) TE in the last year of his contract?!?!?!?

To get ahead of the next question, here is a quick list of TE's who I think are better than Fant is today:

Kelce / Kittle / Waller / Andrews / Gronk / Hockenson / Pitts / Goedert / Henry / Gesicki / Knox. I don't think anyone could argue Fant is better today than any of those players. Then there's a list of Fant / Jonnu / Schultz / Njoku / Hooper / Higbee / Irv / Engram and probably another handful of guys I'm not thinking about. So best case scenario, he's the 12th best Tight End in the league. Realistically, he's squarely in the middle of the pack.

I'm completely shocked that we're even debating this. As a Broncos fan, is this really how highly the outsiders value Noah Fant?!?

No worries; I am shocked you value TE's like Fantasy football players value the position.

Carry On!

[kmbryant09]

No worries; I am shocked you value TE's like Fantasy football players value the position.

Carry On!

I actually think that TE is one of the most undervalued positions in the league, if for no other reason than how suppressed the elite contracts are. I think TE's are just as valuable as WR's, yet WR's get paid about 1.5x what TE's do.

Anyways, back to Wilson!

[Space Cowboy]

Now Randy Gregory and DJ Jones on the defensive side. Team is fully legit aside from potential issues on the right side of their line.

[Bronco Billy]

Now Randy Gregory and DJ Jones on the defensive side. Team is fully legit aside from potential issues on the right side of their line.

lol. Gregory just went to his own slice of heaven, and the pot stores are equally rejoicing at the prospect of massively increased sales.

[YouMightDieTryin]

Now Randy Gregory and DJ Jones on the defensive side. Team is fully legit aside from potential issues on the right side of their line.

Is it possible DEN lures Chandler Jones in? or dare I even think Von returns? The AFC West is insane.

[FantasyFreak]

What blows me away, is Seattle chose Pete over Russ. When all is said and done, they basically gave up the same for a box safety as they got for a franchise/SB winning QB. Adams ended up costing a player, the 14th pick in 2021, plus that years 3rd rounder, and the 10th pick in 2022 for Adams and a 4th. Those 1sts would have quite a bit more value than where the Broncos firsts project to be. Sure, maybe the 2nd's make up a bit for it, but it's close enough in total value, that it's a joke. The Adams trade was nothing short of a disaster, and I can't believe ownership is that oblivious as to let a QB like Russ go over a GM and HC who are passed their expiry date. Petey should be chewing gum with his false teeth in a home, not coaching an NFL team that just traded a top end franchise QB.