Jaylen Samuels
- Forza_Azzurri
- Pro Bowler
- Posts: 1280
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:52 am
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell
-
- GOAT
- Posts: 14288
- Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:06 pm
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Mixon is a system back too. Did you see Gio's numbers when he doesn't play?Forza_Azzurri wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell
- Forza_Azzurri
- Pro Bowler
- Posts: 1280
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:52 am
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Mixon is the anti-system back, because when Gio is in the game they throw to him & run out of pass formations. For most of Mixon's early-career, the Bengals have telegraphed very obviously a run-first play call.Cameron Giles wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pmMixon is a system back too. Did you see Gio's numbers when he doesn't play?Forza_Azzurri wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell
-
- All Pro
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:56 am
Re: Jaylen Samuels
I've been objective the entire time. We arent even talking Conner. It's a Jaylen Samuels thread.Cameron Giles wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 pmBasically.
Barry Sanders was probably a system back too.
I literally just explained it. But, you have James Conner on your team so I don't expect you to be objective.jenkins.math wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:05 pm Lev Bell is elite no matter what data is presented. Why? Because you say so. Got it man. Let's move on.
This will be my last reply to you on this topic, and I honestly doubt you will answer the question directly because that isnt your style.
Does the success of these other backs give you any pause at all that Lev Bell may not be as elite as you originally thought? Or is everything that happened this season completely irrelevant to your elite grade on Lev Bell?
-
- GOAT
- Posts: 14288
- Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:06 pm
Re: Jaylen Samuels
I've already explained it to you.jenkins.math wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:48 pm Does the success of these other backs give you any pause at all that Lev Bell may not be as elite as you originally thought? Or is everything that happened this season completely irrelevant to your elite grade on Lev Bell?
Your mindset is that only one thing can be true. However, it's entirely reasonable that multiple things are true.
1. Pittsburgh has consistently graded out as at least an above-average offensive line in run blocking over the last five seasons: 13th (2018), 7th (2017), 3rd (2016), 8th (2015) and 6th (2014) in adjusted line yards.
Offensive line play is the biggest factor in the run game. If you have a really good offensive line, you can put essentially any replacement level player or better back there and get great results. Tackle on playcalling, schemes, and the respect you have to give the WR options, and it's a fantastic situation for RB's to land in. It explains why an older DeAngelo Williams, James Conner and Jaylen Samuels can step in and produce. It's also why Pittsburgh made the correct call in not giving Bell the deal he wants. It would be irresponsible to if you have faith in your offensive line long-term.
2. Le'Veon Bell is an elite RB, who is in an elite situation.
He's arguably the best WR from the position in football. He can lineup in the slot, on the outside. He gets a good release off the line and shows excellent footwork to create separation from defenders. It's why the Steelers can run him on such a wide variety of routes. In the run game, he brings elite patience, vision, cutback ability at high volume. The bonus is that his run style rarely exposes him to taking big hits and allows the large workload. On top of it, he's been one of the league's best RB's in blitz pickup and pass protection. Bell is arguably the most complete RB in the NFL because of these things. These skills are clear separators from what is an elite situation. However, this doesn't mean that Bell can maximize his ability behind a poor offensive line, or in a trash offense. It's the same reason why Todd Gurley did not look great under Jeff Fisher, but looks like an all-time special RB in Sean McVay's offense with a vastly improved line.
The play of Conner and Samuels should not give you pause that Bell isn't an elite RB. It should merely confirm that all RB's are expendable and that Pittsburgh has consistently produced one of the league's top schemes and offensive lines to maximize that expendability.
-
- All Pro
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:56 am
Re: Jaylen Samuels
I'm assuming you're saying what's happened is irrelevant to your view of Bell. All I wanted to hear. Thanks.Cameron Giles wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:03 pmI've already explained it to you.jenkins.math wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:48 pm Does the success of these other backs give you any pause at all that Lev Bell may not be as elite as you originally thought? Or is everything that happened this season completely irrelevant to your elite grade on Lev Bell?
Your mindset is that only one thing can be true. However, it's entirely reasonable that multiple things are true.
1. Pittsburgh has consistently graded out as at least an above-average offensive line in run blocking over the last five seasons: 13th (2018), 7th (2017), 3rd (2016), 8th (2015) and 6th (2014) in adjusted line yards.
Offensive line play is the biggest factor in the run game. If you have a really good offensive line, you can put essentially any replacement level player or better back there and get great results. Tackle on playcalling, schemes, and the respect you have to give the WR options, and it's a fantastic situation for RB's to land in. It explains why an older DeAngelo Williams, James Conner and Jaylen Samuels can step in and produce. It's also why Pittsburgh made the correct call in not giving Bell the deal he wants. It would be irresponsible to if you have faith in your offensive line long-term.
2. Le'Veon Bell is an elite RB, who is in an elite situation.
He's arguably the best WR from the position in football. He can lineup in the slot, on the outside. He gets a good release off the line and shows excellent footwork to create separation from defenders. It's why the Steelers can run him on such a wide variety of routes. In the run game, he brings elite patience, vision, cutback ability at high volume. The bonus is that his run style rarely exposes him to taking big hits and allows the large workload. On top of it, he's been one of the league's best RB's in blitz pickup and pass protection. Bell is arguably the most complete RB in the NFL because of these things. These skills are clear separators from what is an elite situation. However, this doesn't mean that Bell can maximize his ability behind a poor offensive line, or in a trash offense. It's the same reason why Todd Gurley did not look great under Jeff Fisher, but looks like an all-time special RB in Sean McVay's offense with a vastly improved line.
The play of Conner and Samuels should not give you pause that Bell isn't an elite RB. It should merely confirm that all RB's are expendable and that Pittsburgh has consistently produced one of the league's top schemes and offensive lines to maximize that expendability.
-
- GOAT
- Posts: 14288
- Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:06 pm
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Nope, Mixon is a system back. That's how it works.Forza_Azzurri wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:44 pmMixon is the anti-system back, because when Gio is in the game they throw to him & run out of pass formations. For most of Mixon's early-career, the Bengals have telegraphed very obviously a run-first play call.Cameron Giles wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pmMixon is a system back too. Did you see Gio's numbers when he doesn't play?Forza_Azzurri wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Great systems are driven by great players. Bell is great, and yes, I say that by watching him play, so it’s subjective. Conner and Samuels are pretty damn good too. That’s my subjective take from watching them play.
Edit- oh and Samuels is more “Bell-like” than Conner. Again just by my eyes
Edit- oh and Samuels is more “Bell-like” than Conner. Again just by my eyes
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Stop feeding this trolljenkins.math wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:16 pm
I'm assuming you're saying what's happened is irrelevant to your view of Bell. All I wanted to hear. Thanks.
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Despite all of this, When Conner is healthy, I'm betting he will be the primary ball carrier for Pittsburgh. Why? Because he is talented enough, well rounded, and fits their system. He is a good blocker, runs hard, he isn't "elite" at catching passes out of the backfield, but... he is dang good at it, and the staff loves him. He finishes strong and over the course of his 9-10 game stretch, he outproduced the elite L.Bell in any 9 game stretch Bell ever had in the NFL. So, lets not minimize or sweep that under the rug. We are anointing J.Samuels as being on the same tier as Conner after Samuels was active in the starting role in just two games. Lets look closer at the sample size and the opposition in those games before we get all revved up about Samuels being in the conversation with L.Bell and or J.Conner. Samuels first game playing - I felt he was less than impressive. I felt he was too hesitant, too patient, and less than decisive with his decisions. He left yards on the field and frankly, I came away less than impressed. He was ok and he filled in adequately. His 2nd game, he put up rb1 numbers. Is it because he himself was SO much better and made improvements? - or is it perhaps a combination of him improving a bit, being less nervous, and also a reflection of the opposing run defense, game flow, game script, and play calling? I don't see it as complicated in the least. I think far too many fantasy enthusiasts get too heavily influenced by recent events and weigh them heavier than events from just a few weeks back. Seems strange to me but, it is human nature.
L.Bell was not a highly drafted first round prospect. Bell was not viewed in his draft class like D.Williams was viewed in his at the time of his draft. L.Bell didn't get drafted in fantasy drafts at the 1.01 or even 1.02 or even 1.03 spot in many leagues I'm assuming. Heck, I looked back and in my one long standing league, Bell was drafted AFTER M.Ball, and T.Austin. Anyway, He is most definitely talented but, more importantly, his skill fit the system he was drafted into. You all remember Willie Parker? How about Rashard Mendenhall? Very similar to now.... J.Conner's skill fits the RB friendly system he is currently in and in that light - it makes a hell of a lot of sense for Pittsburgh to NOT overpay him as they know / knew that they could get the production they need with Conner and or J.Samuels.
From all of this we can take a few things. L.Bell is talented but talent doesn't always equate to fantasy gold when it comes to the rb position. It's more like a puzzle piece that needs to fit. So, Bell's fantasy production is likely to take a dip from where it was.
James Conner may not be an elite talent, but, since the coaching staff loves him, when he is healthy, he will be a rb1 producing rb with J.Samuels providing very nice affordable and versatile depth.
L.Bell was not a highly drafted first round prospect. Bell was not viewed in his draft class like D.Williams was viewed in his at the time of his draft. L.Bell didn't get drafted in fantasy drafts at the 1.01 or even 1.02 or even 1.03 spot in many leagues I'm assuming. Heck, I looked back and in my one long standing league, Bell was drafted AFTER M.Ball, and T.Austin. Anyway, He is most definitely talented but, more importantly, his skill fit the system he was drafted into. You all remember Willie Parker? How about Rashard Mendenhall? Very similar to now.... J.Conner's skill fits the RB friendly system he is currently in and in that light - it makes a hell of a lot of sense for Pittsburgh to NOT overpay him as they know / knew that they could get the production they need with Conner and or J.Samuels.
From all of this we can take a few things. L.Bell is talented but talent doesn't always equate to fantasy gold when it comes to the rb position. It's more like a puzzle piece that needs to fit. So, Bell's fantasy production is likely to take a dip from where it was.
James Conner may not be an elite talent, but, since the coaching staff loves him, when he is healthy, he will be a rb1 producing rb with J.Samuels providing very nice affordable and versatile depth.
Truth is found through Evidence.
Science is the poetry of reality.
* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.
Science is the poetry of reality.
* Reality (as defined by Webster's dictionary) - A word for things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional ideal of them.
-
- Rookie
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:32 pm
Re: Jaylen Samuels
It's looking like Conner will miss another week...where do you think that puts Samuel's in Yahoo leagues where he has TE eligibility this week?
10 Team (15 Keepers) - 1QB 2RB 3WR 1Flex 1TE - Standard Scoring Full Point PPR
QB - A. Rodgers, D. Prescott, L.Jackson, J. Winston, J. Allen
RB - E. Elliott, J. Mixon, N. Chubb, L. McCoy, J. Samuels, L. Murray, J. Adams, K. Ball age
WR - A. Cooper, A. Jeffery, C. Davis, T. Boyd, G. Tate, J. Reynolds, C. Kirk, Mar. Jones
TE - E. Engram, O.J Howard, I. Thomas, M. Lacosse, C. Uzomah
QB - A. Rodgers, D. Prescott, L.Jackson, J. Winston, J. Allen
RB - E. Elliott, J. Mixon, N. Chubb, L. McCoy, J. Samuels, L. Murray, J. Adams, K. Ball age
WR - A. Cooper, A. Jeffery, C. Davis, T. Boyd, G. Tate, J. Reynolds, C. Kirk, Mar. Jones
TE - E. Engram, O.J Howard, I. Thomas, M. Lacosse, C. Uzomah
-
- All Pro
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:56 am
Re: Jaylen Samuels
As a TE, he has to be top 3 with Kelce and Ertz right?xxironskullxx wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:28 am It's looking like Conner will miss another week...where do you think that puts Samuel's in Yahoo leagues where he has TE eligibility this week?
-
- Rookie
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:32 pm
Re: Jaylen Samuels
I'm thinking the same thing. I have Engram (w/Odell out he's been good in full point PPR) in my one league and I'm benching him for Samuel's. Hopefully I don't regret it if Samuels falls flat in a tough matchup vs. NO loljenkins.math wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:32 amAs a TE, he has to be top 3 with Kelce and Ertz right?xxironskullxx wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:28 am It's looking like Conner will miss another week...where do you think that puts Samuel's in Yahoo leagues where he has TE eligibility this week?
10 Team (15 Keepers) - 1QB 2RB 3WR 1Flex 1TE - Standard Scoring Full Point PPR
QB - A. Rodgers, D. Prescott, L.Jackson, J. Winston, J. Allen
RB - E. Elliott, J. Mixon, N. Chubb, L. McCoy, J. Samuels, L. Murray, J. Adams, K. Ball age
WR - A. Cooper, A. Jeffery, C. Davis, T. Boyd, G. Tate, J. Reynolds, C. Kirk, Mar. Jones
TE - E. Engram, O.J Howard, I. Thomas, M. Lacosse, C. Uzomah
QB - A. Rodgers, D. Prescott, L.Jackson, J. Winston, J. Allen
RB - E. Elliott, J. Mixon, N. Chubb, L. McCoy, J. Samuels, L. Murray, J. Adams, K. Ball age
WR - A. Cooper, A. Jeffery, C. Davis, T. Boyd, G. Tate, J. Reynolds, C. Kirk, Mar. Jones
TE - E. Engram, O.J Howard, I. Thomas, M. Lacosse, C. Uzomah
- BigJoeWall72
- Role Player
- Posts: 380
- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:11 pm
- Location: Meeeeechigan
Re: Jaylen Samuels
Bumping this and bringing it forward to Samuels' 2019 outlook and beyond...
I'm looking at having to make roster cuts in a week's time, and I just don't know what to make of Samuels... He produced pretty good numbers down the stretch in 2018 when he was the lead guy for a minute, but how do we think he will be used now that Conner is back at full health?
Full blown RBBC?
3rd down back?
Hardly at all?
What kind of trade value is everyone seeing out there? What's your buy/hold/sell tipping point?
I'm looking at having to make roster cuts in a week's time, and I just don't know what to make of Samuels... He produced pretty good numbers down the stretch in 2018 when he was the lead guy for a minute, but how do we think he will be used now that Conner is back at full health?
Full blown RBBC?
3rd down back?
Hardly at all?
What kind of trade value is everyone seeing out there? What's your buy/hold/sell tipping point?
- Prison_Mike
- Hall of Fame
- Posts: 4188
- Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:57 am
Re: Jaylen Samuels
I view Samuels as an elite handcuff, but I think those who envision him as a consistent weekly flex play with a lot of stand-alone value will be disappointed. As a fan of both the Steelers & Jaylen Samuel, I would love to see him get significantly more involved in the offense; But I just don't see it with Conner healthyBigJoeWall72 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:52 am Bumping this and bringing it forward to Samuels' 2019 outlook and beyond...
I'm looking at having to make roster cuts in a week's time, and I just don't know what to make of Samuels... He produced pretty good numbers down the stretch in 2018 when he was the lead guy for a minute, but how do we think he will be used now that Conner is back at full health?
Full blown RBBC?
3rd down back?
Hardly at all?
What kind of trade value is everyone seeing out there? What's your buy/hold/sell tipping point?
I could be wrong though, I've been wrong once or twice before in my life
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Lumps and 30 guests