Training Camp HYPE 2023 (only football)

[remedy29]

I'm so over the Jonathan Taylor soap opera.

I agree RBs deserve to get paid more. The good ones handle 300+ touches and get hit byt guys 50+ pounds heavier. They suffer the worst wear and tear on their joints. They are a premier positions and big selling point for the league. I understand the merit of paying offensive lineman, but nobody is tuning in to watch Tristian Wirfs block. People want to see Derrick Henry and Christian McCaffery do incredible things. They are bringing in money while taking the worst punishment, and getting paid the least.

That said he needs to just play. Holding out like this won't help his cause. All he can do is go ball out this season.

I don't agree that he just needs to play. This is the year he needs to fight for a contract extension. He is on his 4th year rookie contract, "only" making about 4M, and he is now eligible for a contract. In regards to his contract negotiation, he either needs to receive a contract now, or make it difficult for the Colts to franchise tag him next year. Next year he will be franchised tag, and then the window to negotiate a contract will close. He will then be faced with a 10M contract or nothing. Sitting out next year will be more costly than sitting out this year.

His really only objective this year should be fulfilling his 4th year and becoming a FA next year. I sm not sure what that means in regards to games played, does he have to play 6 games? Regardless what he does this year, he will make 10M minimum next year with little opportunity of negiating a contract.

Sucks for football fans, but this is the hard reality of the business side of the sport and a disgruntled position group.

In a perfect world I agree with you 100%. I just don't see the Colts budging here and they unfortunately have more leverage in this situation.

RBs have little leverage, but none have used it yet. RBs on last year of rookie contract or 1st or 2nd year franchise tags, should sit at the end of the season, not the beginning. This will only impact teams trying to make the playoffs. But imagine the Giants pushing for the playoffs in December, and Barkley said he is going on vacation, see you next year.

RBs number 1 goal should be to reach true free agency. The franchise tags are killing all of the opportunity to earn true market value.

[FantasyFreak]

I don't agree that he just needs to play. This is the year he needs to fight for a contract extension. He is on his 4th year rookie contract, "only" making about 4M, and he is now eligible for a contract. In regards to his contract negotiation, he either needs to receive a contract now, or make it difficult for the Colts to franchise tag him next year. Next year he will be franchised tag, and then the window to negotiate a contract will close. He will then be faced with a 10M contract or nothing. Sitting out next year will be more costly than sitting out this year.

His really only objective this year should be fulfilling his 4th year and becoming a FA next year. I sm not sure what that means in regards to games played, does he have to play 6 games? Regardless what he does this year, he will make 10M minimum next year with little opportunity of negiating a contract.

Sucks for football fans, but this is the hard reality of the business side of the sport and a disgruntled position group.

In a perfect world I agree with you 100%. I just don't see the Colts budging here and they unfortunately have more leverage in this situation.

RBs have little leverage, but none have used it yet. RBs on last year of rookie contract or 1st or 2nd year franchise tags, should sit at the end of the season, not the beginning. This will only impact teams trying to make the playoffs. But imagine the Giants pushing for the playoffs in December, and Barkley said he is going on vacation, see you next year.

RBs number 1 goal should be to reach true free agency. The franchise tags are killing all of the opportunity to earn true market value.

Do you believe teams will be willing to shell out at on of guaranteed money on a players 2nd contracts, if they miss time near playoffs, and there is information suggesting they could have played, but didn't? Faked or exaggerated injuries being known may help their cause, to get to FA unscathed, but I have a tough time believing teams would pay up for a player like that. Once they get their guarantees, how can you feel confident they will give you their all once they've locked in their money, if they have a history of faking or hamming up injuries? I just can't see GM's shelling out big deals to RB's on 2nd deals as it is, at this point in the NFL, let alone ones to players who do those types of things.

If a player is examined by a team doctor (who work for the team, not the player), and they say he's fit to play, and the player doesn't, or pulls himself out etc. I find it hard to believe teams are going to be lining up to give that player multiple years of guaranteed money at the age of 26 or 27, with that knowledge. It could also set themselves up for a grievance filed by the team.

In fact, people talk about collusion from owners, and if SB, Dobbins, Jacobs, JT all pull something like that at the end of the year, there would likely be some grounds for a grievance, or "collusion" investigation, considering they openly had meetings together to discuss their strategies. If one of those was faking injuries at the end of the season, they would likely make things more difficult for them and RB's in future, rather than help. I don't think GM's and owners would take kindly to that type of thing, the CBA was signed, RB's are one of the least valuable positions in the league, it's unfortunate for RB's, but they likely won't increase their demand or value by making themselves unavailable for teams when they need them the most, vs playing and helping their teams make a playoff run.

[remedy29]

@FantasyFreak, Lamar Jackson got a huge contract and he could have played in the playoffs last year. So yes, I do think GMs will pay talented players if they were a true free agent.

Now, Im not suggesting Lamar didnt have an injury that would limit his productivity, but many accounts suggested he could have played. But being a QB that relied so much on healthy legs, he wouldn't have been as productive (assuming Lamar cant be productive as a pocket passer).

I hear what you are saying, but RBs do have leverage, its their play. The situation with RBs is to such a point where they need to threaten to take their play away. But they need to do it when it hurts the team the most, end of season and/or playoffs.

A RB that signs a contract, and specially ones that sign multi year contract, I do believe would play and there shouldn't be concerns that they wouldn't. They can put some language in the contract to ensure that they play.
But RBs are not signing multi year contracts. They are being made to play on their rookie contract, some on their 5th year, the franchise tag 1, then franchise tag 2.

If Saquon Barkley sat in the playoffs last year, do you think the Giants wouldn't have locked him in on the franchise tag? Its only 1 year and a huge advantage to the team. And if the Giants declined, you dont think a healthy free Agent Saquon Barkley wouldn't have gotten a better contract than a 1 year 10M contract.
I believe he would have done just fine as a free agent.

You have to view it from a negotiation standpoint. Barkley sitting last year would have been viewed as an extreme negotiation tactic. And the NFL is a business. If the player is talented enough, he will get paid.
However, Barkley wasn't in position prior to 2022 season to sign a multi year contract because he was coming off injury/ unproductive season. But he could have signed one at the end of 2022 and he could have used his play availability in the negotiation.

[FantasyFreak]

@FantasyFreak, Lamar Jackson got a huge contract and he could have played in the playoffs last year. So yes, I do think GMs will pay talented players if they were a true free agent.

Now, Im not suggesting Lamar didnt have an injury that would limit his productivity, but many accounts suggested he could have played. But being a QB that relied so much on healthy legs, he wouldn't have been as productive (assuming Lamar cant be productive as a pocket passer).

I hear what you are saying, but RBs do have leverage, its their play. The situation with RBs is to such a point where they need to threaten to take their play away. But they need to do it when it hurts the team the most, end of season and/or playoffs.

A RB that signs a contract, and specially ones that sign multi year contract, I do believe would play and there shouldn't be concerns that they wouldn't. They can put some language in the contract to ensure that they play.
But RBs are not signing multi year contracts. They are being made to play on their rookie contract, some on their 5th year, the franchise tag 1, then franchise tag 2.

If Saquon Barkley sat in the playoffs last year, do you think the Giants wouldn't have locked him in on the franchise tag? Its only 1 year and a huge advantage to the team. And if the Giants declined, you dont think a healthy free Agent Saquon Barkley wouldn't have gotten a better contract than a 1 year 10M contract.
I believe he would have done just fine as a free agent.

Franchise QB with an MVP season under his belt vs RB going into a 2nd contract is apples and oranges. I almost added it in there, but felt my post was long enough. Lamar is the example I can think of, but it's the most important position, arguably in all of sports, I don't think RB's will work the same way.

I'm not sure about franchise tag 2, not really many examples of that, beyond Bell. However, it's one of those things, that is in the CBA and teams have every right to do it, and it's actually smart. It's unfortunate for the RB's, but I don't think the league is going to want/allow a bunch of players feigning injuries. It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but again, if a team doctor says they are good to play, and a player doesn't play, that's recipe for a grievance against the player. I just don't think the league is going to allow faking injuries to be a common thing, it's not good for their brand, and they will seek to put a clamp on it, IMO.

[remedy29]

Im not talking about faking injuries, thats bush league...and apparently acceptable if you are a QB. Im talking about flat out sitting, minus a game check if in regular season, minus nothing if in the post season.

[FantasyFreak]

Im not talking about faking injuries, thats bush league...and apparently acceptable if you are a QB. Im talking about flat out sitting, minus a game check if in regular season, minus nothing if in the post season.

I'm not sure what the CBA would have to say about that. Interesting, my apologies, I misunderstood. There may be a grievance if healthy players do that. I honestly don't know enough about the legalities of the contracts. Insubordination etc. I think if a guy did that, he'd likely be close to black balled. I have a tough time seeing guys getting big contracts after doing that. Tough to be liked by a teammate ever again, or have a GM trust paying you for multiple years guaranteed if you pull that kind of stunt. Wouldn't have a lot of trust in a guy, if I were a GM, if he did that. I'd honestly like to know how that would be handled by the CBA, etc. IF it would put them in breach of contract, and therefor they'd lose a year of eligibility.

[remedy29]

I dont want to keep derailing the training camp hype topic, so likely my last post on thus subject.
Dont think there are any CBA or contract ramifications. The player just needs to accure a year of playing time
Doesnt matter if he sits game 1, game 17 or the playoffs.

And yes, the RB would have to be a jerk to do this and would be viewed negatively. But as Deshawn Watson has proven, the NFL covets talented, or in his case perceived talented, players, and will pay them.

Regardless of what Jonathan Taylor does this year, do you really think he would do any worse than a 1 year 10M contract, if he is healthy? If he only played 6 games and sat the rest of the year, he would probably be viewed as less wear and viewed more positively vs receiving 300+ carries and be viewed as overworked.

Jonathan Taylor main objective this year is to reach true FA. If he got the Colts to view him as toxic, that would be to a healthy, free agent, Jonathan Taylor's advantage.

[ericanadian]

In a perfect world I agree with you 100%. I just don't see the Colts budging here and they unfortunately have more leverage in this situation.

RBs have little leverage, but none have used it yet. RBs on last year of rookie contract or 1st or 2nd year franchise tags, should sit at the end of the season, not the beginning. This will only impact teams trying to make the playoffs. But imagine the Giants pushing for the playoffs in December, and Barkley said he is going on vacation, see you next year.

RBs number 1 goal should be to reach true free agency. The franchise tags are killing all of the opportunity to earn true market value.

Do you believe teams will be willing to shell out at on of guaranteed money on a players 2nd contracts, if they miss time near playoffs, and there is information suggesting they could have played, but didn't? Faked or exaggerated injuries being known may help their cause, to get to FA unscathed, but I have a tough time believing teams would pay up for a player like that. Once they get their guarantees, how can you feel confident they will give you their all once they've locked in their money, if they have a history of faking or hamming up injuries? I just can't see GM's shelling out big deals to RB's on 2nd deals as it is, at this point in the NFL, let alone ones to players who do those types of things.

If a player is examined by a team doctor (who work for the team, not the player), and they say he's fit to play, and the player doesn't, or pulls himself out etc. I find it hard to believe teams are going to be lining up to give that player multiple years of guaranteed money at the age of 26 or 27, with that knowledge. It could also set themselves up for a grievance filed by the team.

In fact, people talk about collusion from owners, and if SB, Dobbins, Jacobs, JT all pull something like that at the end of the year, there would likely be some grounds for a grievance, or "collusion" investigation, considering they openly had meetings together to discuss their strategies. If one of those was faking injuries at the end of the season, they would likely make things more difficult for them and RB's in future, rather than help. I don't think GM's and owners would take kindly to that type of thing, the CBA was signed, RB's are one of the least valuable positions in the league, it's unfortunate for RB's, but they likely won't increase their demand or value by making themselves unavailable for teams when they need them the most, vs playing and helping their teams make a playoff run.

Collusion of players isn’t really a thing. It’s why Lebron was able to assemble the Miami Heat the way he did. I get this isn’t the NBA, but that sort of thing is fairly standard. The entire concept of a union is collusion if you really want to look at it that way. The team can almost certainly fine the player, but I’ve never seen a situation where a guy left the team in the middle of the season. If anyone should’ve gone that route, it was Vincent Jackson back with San Diego. Instead he held out, got suspended and didn’t accrue a year. I think the union might only protect holdouts from the beginning of the season, but was never able to find documentation on it.

[FantasyFreak]

RBs have little leverage, but none have used it yet. RBs on last year of rookie contract or 1st or 2nd year franchise tags, should sit at the end of the season, not the beginning. This will only impact teams trying to make the playoffs. But imagine the Giants pushing for the playoffs in December, and Barkley said he is going on vacation, see you next year.

RBs number 1 goal should be to reach true free agency. The franchise tags are killing all of the opportunity to earn true market value.

Do you believe teams will be willing to shell out at on of guaranteed money on a players 2nd contracts, if they miss time near playoffs, and there is information suggesting they could have played, but didn't? Faked or exaggerated injuries being known may help their cause, to get to FA unscathed, but I have a tough time believing teams would pay up for a player like that. Once they get their guarantees, how can you feel confident they will give you their all once they've locked in their money, if they have a history of faking or hamming up injuries? I just can't see GM's shelling out big deals to RB's on 2nd deals as it is, at this point in the NFL, let alone ones to players who do those types of things.

If a player is examined by a team doctor (who work for the team, not the player), and they say he's fit to play, and the player doesn't, or pulls himself out etc. I find it hard to believe teams are going to be lining up to give that player multiple years of guaranteed money at the age of 26 or 27, with that knowledge. It could also set themselves up for a grievance filed by the team.

In fact, people talk about collusion from owners, and if SB, Dobbins, Jacobs, JT all pull something like that at the end of the year, there would likely be some grounds for a grievance, or "collusion" investigation, considering they openly had meetings together to discuss their strategies. If one of those was faking injuries at the end of the season, they would likely make things more difficult for them and RB's in future, rather than help. I don't think GM's and owners would take kindly to that type of thing, the CBA was signed, RB's are one of the least valuable positions in the league, it's unfortunate for RB's, but they likely won't increase their demand or value by making themselves unavailable for teams when they need them the most, vs playing and helping their teams make a playoff run.

Collusion of players isn’t really a thing. It’s why Lebron was able to assemble the Miami Heat the way he did. I get this isn’t the NBA, but that sort of thing is fairly standard. The entire concept of a union is collusion if you really want to look at it that way. The team can almost certainly fine the player, but I’ve never seen a situation where a guy left the team in the middle of the season. If anyone should’ve gone that route, it was Vincent Jackson back with San Diego. Instead he held out, got suspended and didn’t accrue a year. I think the union might only protect holdouts from the beginning of the season, but was never able to find documentation on it.

Not the same thing, if part of that meeting meant colluding against thing set out in the CBA, was my point. Faking injuries and missing time would almost certainly be breach of contract, and be worthy of a grievance. Getting together a bunch of FA's to play for the same team isn't really the same thing.

The specific thing I was referring to was colluding with other players to decide to fake injuries during the season. That's big issue, and would certainly be fine worthy, and grievance worthy. I don't think they will do it, but I would expect the NFL to have a big problem with it if a bunch of those RB's in that meeting suddenly said they were hurt, and were examined by doctors who said that the passed the physical.

[Kurt G.O.A.T.]

All Taylor has to do is play in 6 games this season to accrue a full season so he can become a free agent. He can do that in the first 6 weeks then tell the colts he's out for the rest of the season if he wants to be an bleep about it, doesn't want to risk injury since he doesn't have a long term deal. They can then decide if they want to tag him next season. At least he will make $10m instead of the paltry sum this season. He'd have to give up over $2.5m this season. Still a bit of cheddar. And would be difficult to do to your teammates.

[FantasyFreak]

All Taylor has to do is play in 6 games this season to accrue a full season so he can become a free agent. He can do that in the first 6 weeks then tell the colts he's out for the rest of the season if he wants to be an bleep about it, doesn't want to risk injury since he doesn't have a long term deal. They can then decide if they want to tag him next season. At least he will make $10m instead of the paltry sum this season. He'd have to give up over $2.5m this season. Still a bit of cheddar. And would be difficult to do to your teammates.

Thanks for clarifying.

[killer_of_giants]

Im not talking about faking injuries, thats bush league...and apparently acceptable if you are a QB. Im talking about flat out sitting, minus a game check if in regular season, minus nothing if in the post season.

minus an accrued season, too...

[killer_of_giants]

All Taylor has to do is play in 6 games this season to accrue a full season so he can become a free agent. He can do that in the first 6 weeks then tell the colts he's out for the rest of the season if he wants to be an bleep about it, doesn't want to risk injury since he doesn't have a long term deal. They can then decide if they want to tag him next season. At least he will make $10m instead of the paltry sum this season. He'd have to give up over $2.5m this season. Still a bit of cheddar. And would be difficult to do to your teammates.

pretty sure that's breach of contract though.

[Ice]

All Taylor has to do is play in 6 games this season to accrue a full season so he can become a free agent. He can do that in the first 6 weeks then tell the colts he's out for the rest of the season if he wants to be an bleep about it, doesn't want to risk injury since he doesn't have a long term deal. They can then decide if they want to tag him next season. At least he will make $10m instead of the paltry sum this season. He'd have to give up over $2.5m this season. Still a bit of cheddar. And would be difficult to do to your teammates.

Not a direct shot at you and I guess he could try that but; Players are not wired that way. They have a short window as is and owners are not going to pay a RB that quits on his team. He does that nonsense and he will be on a prove it deal best case.

The paltry sum of $4,304,000 you speak of is something he actually agreed to. I guess some root for losers that act that way and think they are more entitled even coming off an injury.

That mindset my sound all right in internet chat but it is so far from realistic in life it is laughable.

[Bronco Billy]

All Taylor has to do is play in 6 games this season to accrue a full season so he can become a free agent. He can do that in the first 6 weeks then tell the colts he's out for the rest of the season if he wants to be an bleep about it, doesn't want to risk injury since he doesn't have a long term deal. They can then decide if they want to tag him next season. At least he will make $10m instead of the paltry sum this season. He'd have to give up over $2.5m this season. Still a bit of cheddar. And would be difficult to do to your teammates.

Not a direct shot at you and I guess he could try that but; Players are not wired that way. They have a short window as is and owners are not going to pay a RB that quits on his team. He does that nonsense and he will be on a prove it deal best case.

The paltry sum of $4,304,000 you speak of is something he actually agreed to. I guess some root for losers that act that way and think they are more entitled even coming off an injury.

That mindset my sound all right in internet chat but it is so far from realistic in life it is laughable.

You have to be a QB to be able to quit on your team and still get paid (or should I say overpaid?).