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Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 8:43 am
by YouMightDieTryin
murphysxm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:28 am
dlf_mikeh wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:17 am
But was that because of Rivers? Will this continue with Wentz? I hope so. Watching JT get better in multiple phases of the game skyrockets his ceiling even higher than before.
I see regression without Rivers
I tend to agree. Carson just isn't as smart with the ball as Rivers was. Rivers knew when to give up on a play and bail. With Carson there's going to be the effort to extend plays which will hurt JT slightly. Sure you might get a big play every once in awhile, but you'll also take your licks them too.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:12 am
by thebeast
dlf_mikeh wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:17 am
YouMightDieTryin wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:32 am If you took him at the 1.1 you over paid vs JT.
If you took him at the 1.2 it's because you were practically pinholed into it FOMO style. (me!)
If you took him anywhere after 1.2 then I'd say you were justified and will see a ROI this year.

Anyone after 1.2 didn't polarize (RB wise) Dobbins went 1.3, Swift 1.4, Akers went 1.5. All looked good (not great) and showed promise, but all have work to do. It's an open season. After this season is over we can start to really judge who was overrated.
In hindsight that's pretty easy to say. At the time of JT vs CEH I said that I'd rather have CEH, especially in PPR leagues, because JT will have to wait a year to develop behind Mack, and CEH would be used more in the passing game than JT, and was drafted to a high scoring offense.

Mack gets hurt and JT gets fed carries and runs behind one of the best lines in football, while CEH gets one of the worst O-lines due to multiple injuries and 2 starters who opt out due to covid. Nobody saw any of that coming.

The biggest shock to me is that JT is actually being useful in the passing game. I did not see this coming at any year of his career, let alone his first year. This alone raises his value to a whole new level for me. This is the best surprise for JT owners imo.

But was that because of Rivers? Will this continue with Wentz? I hope so. Watching JT get better in multiple phases of the game skyrockets his ceiling even higher than before.
I agree with Mke here, but I think it's still too early to say JT > CEH. That's what today's value is, but things change quickly. This whole thread is kind of silly as too many people are proclaiming absolutes. Values in dynasty are fluid. People should go back and read the Cooper vs Gurley thread over time as a reminder how the value shift constantly.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:21 am
by MEuRaH
thebeast wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:12 amI think it's still too early to say JT > CEH. That's what today's value is, but things change quickly.
Yeah, good point. I was sitting here writing a reply for maybe an hour trying to pick who I'd rather have going forward, and tbh they are still in the same tier for me, and I wouldn't be shocked at all to see Swift and or Dobbins join them.

At least we have no busts yet. The worst thing you can do is spend an early first on a guy that doesn't pan out.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:25 am
by thebeast
dlf_mikeh wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:21 am
thebeast wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:12 amI think it's still too early to say JT > CEH. That's what today's value is, but things change quickly.
Yeah, good point. I was sitting here writing a reply for maybe an hour trying to pick who I'd rather have going forward, and tbh they are still in the same tier for me, and I wouldn't be shocked at all to see Swift and or Dobbins join them.

At least we have no busts yet. The worst thing you can do is spend an early first on a guy that doesn't pan out.
Ah yes, a reminder of my Guice shares that I continue to hold.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 am
by murphysxm
thebeast wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:25 am
Ah yes, a reminder of my Guice shares that I continue to hold.
time to move on my friend.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:00 am
by dynastyninja
murphysxm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:27 am
thebeast wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 9:25 am
Ah yes, a reminder of my Guice shares that I continue to hold.
time to move on my friend.
Oh wow, yeah definitely time to cut bait. He turned out to be a really bad guy.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:20 am
by Sriracha
dlf_mikeh wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:17 am In hindsight that's pretty easy to say. At the time of JT vs CEH I said that I'd rather have CEH, especially in PPR leagues, because JT will have to wait a year to develop behind Mack, and CEH would be used more in the passing game than JT, and was drafted to a high scoring offense.

Mack gets hurt and JT gets fed carries and runs behind one of the best lines in football, while CEH gets one of the worst O-lines due to multiple injuries and 2 starters who opt out due to covid. Nobody saw any of that coming.

The biggest shock to me is that JT is actually being useful in the passing game. I did not see this coming at any year of his career, let alone his first year. This alone raises his value to a whole new level for me. This is the best surprise for JT owners imo.

But was that because of Rivers? Will this continue with Wentz? I hope so. Watching JT get better in multiple phases of the game skyrockets his ceiling even higher than before.
This is some narrative driven analysis.

The difference in O-line play was not nearly as drastic as you're making it out to be. Via PFF they finished at #7 in the NFL, KC finished #11 in the NFL.

JT was the more efficient player because he's bigger/faster/stronger.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:24 am
by StripesOfKC
murphysxm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:28 am
dlf_mikeh wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:17 am
But was that because of Rivers? Will this continue with Wentz? I hope so. Watching JT get better in multiple phases of the game skyrockets his ceiling even higher than before.
I see regression without Rivers
Seriously for a generally smart FO like the Colts fooling around with garbage like Carson Wentz just screams "We are desperate and about to run out of our 2018 draft class on their rookie deals"

My JT shares really wish they'd moved up for a real QB in the draft a la Bears (I'd have taken Mac Jones too)

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:55 am
by murphysxm
StripesOfKC wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:24 am
murphysxm wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:28 am
dlf_mikeh wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 8:17 am
But was that because of Rivers? Will this continue with Wentz? I hope so. Watching JT get better in multiple phases of the game skyrockets his ceiling even higher than before.
I see regression without Rivers
Seriously for a generally smart FO like the Colts fooling around with garbage like Carson Wentz just screams "We are desperate and about to run out of our 2018 draft class on their rookie deals"

My JT shares really wish they'd moved up for a real QB in the draft a la Bears (I'd have taken Mac Jones too)
I'm not that anti Carson, my post was more geared on Rivers lack of mobility and check down tendacies. I am really starting to have some optimism about Wentz and the fit. May be the fan in me, but there hasn't been much Balard has done that didn't turn out positive.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 4:56 am
by MEuRaH
Sriracha wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:20 amThe difference in O-line play was not nearly as drastic as you're making it out to be. Via PFF they finished at #7 in the NFL, KC finished #11 in the NFL.
I've spoken my piece about PFF over the years but I don't mind saying it again: PFF is over-valued. They called Zach Moss the best rookie RB of his class. They called Wayne Gallman a first round pick. Etc. I like PFF for stats that I can't get anywhere else, but not when they try to take those stats and make some sort of rankings system out of it. It just doesn't work imo.

If the Chiefs O-line was so great, the top brass wouldn't have spent significant cap space and draft capital on replacing everyone. They replaced six players on that line and are getting two more back who opted out due to covid. That's eight new players this year than from the year prior. They made it a priority because it was terrible, regardless of what PFF suggests.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 am
by SteveMaddensShoes
dlf_mikeh wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:56 am
Sriracha wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:20 amThe difference in O-line play was not nearly as drastic as you're making it out to be. Via PFF they finished at #7 in the NFL, KC finished #11 in the NFL.
I've spoken my piece about PFF over the years but I don't mind saying it again: PFF is over-valued. They called Zach Moss the best rookie RB of his class. They called Wayne Gallman a first round pick. Etc. I like PFF for stats that I can't get anywhere else, but not when they try to take those stats and make some sort of rankings system out of it. It just doesn't work imo.

If the Chiefs O-line was so great, the top brass wouldn't have spent significant cap space and draft capital on replacing everyone. They replaced six players on that line and are getting two more back who opted out due to covid. That's eight new players this year than from the year prior. They made it a priority because it was terrible, regardless of what PFF suggests.
I'm a Chiefs fan. It was hard to watch. Not a good line. I've seen some good lines over the years in KC. Last year was not it. If Mahommes wasn't so special it would have appeared even worse. He was on the move ALOT last year, at least that's how I remember it.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 7:54 am
by Dawkins20
SteveMaddensShoes wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 5:34 am
dlf_mikeh wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:56 am
Sriracha wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:20 amThe difference in O-line play was not nearly as drastic as you're making it out to be. Via PFF they finished at #7 in the NFL, KC finished #11 in the NFL.
I've spoken my piece about PFF over the years but I don't mind saying it again: PFF is over-valued. They called Zach Moss the best rookie RB of his class. They called Wayne Gallman a first round pick. Etc. I like PFF for stats that I can't get anywhere else, but not when they try to take those stats and make some sort of rankings system out of it. It just doesn't work imo.

If the Chiefs O-line was so great, the top brass wouldn't have spent significant cap space and draft capital on replacing everyone. They replaced six players on that line and are getting two more back who opted out due to covid. That's eight new players this year than from the year prior. They made it a priority because it was terrible, regardless of what PFF suggests.
I'm a Chiefs fan. It was hard to watch. Not a good line. I've seen some good lines over the years in KC. Last year was not it. If Mahommes wasn't so special it would have appeared even worse. He was on the move ALOT last year, at least that's how I remember it.
Mahomes was pressured more than any other quarterback in Super Bowl history according to ESPN, spent most of his night running around to buy himself time, scrambling for more than a quarter-mile (497 yards) during his dropbacks.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 8:28 am
by ndog78
New here. Been a member of DLF site for 3 years but never really posted on the forum.

I have both CEH and JT in different dynasty leagues. I drafted CEH 1.01 in a smaller 12 team dynasty. My thinking was he'd be better in that offense with Reid and Mahomes. I drafted JT 1.03 in deeper 32 team dynasty and I'm very happy with the pick. I think both will be fine each league but JT is definitely my preference at this point.

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 8:35 am
by tresskid84
dlf_mikeh wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:56 am
Sriracha wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:20 amThe difference in O-line play was not nearly as drastic as you're making it out to be. Via PFF they finished at #7 in the NFL, KC finished #11 in the NFL.
I've spoken my piece about PFF over the years but I don't mind saying it again: PFF is over-valued. They called Zach Moss the best rookie RB of his class. They called Wayne Gallman a first round pick. Etc. I like PFF for stats that I can't get anywhere else, but not when they try to take those stats and make some sort of rankings system out of it. It just doesn't work imo.

If the Chiefs O-line was so great, the top brass wouldn't have spent significant cap space and draft capital on replacing everyone. They replaced six players on that line and are getting two more back who opted out due to covid. That's eight new players this year than from the year prior. They made it a priority because it was terrible, regardless of what PFF suggests.
Honest question, as a long time reader of pff as well as dlf. When did PFF call Wayne Gallman a first round pick? (edit: If it was for fantasy, then that could explain me missing it, lol. Though their fantasy writers are a completely different animal than their other coverage to me)

Re: Clyde Edwards-Helaire is your new 1.01

Posted: Sat May 15, 2021 9:19 am
by Sriracha
dlf_mikeh wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 4:56 am
Sriracha wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:20 amThe difference in O-line play was not nearly as drastic as you're making it out to be. Via PFF they finished at #7 in the NFL, KC finished #11 in the NFL.
I've spoken my piece about PFF over the years but I don't mind saying it again: PFF is over-valued. They called Zach Moss the best rookie RB of his class. They called Wayne Gallman a first round pick. Etc. I like PFF for stats that I can't get anywhere else, but not when they try to take those stats and make some sort of rankings system out of it. It just doesn't work imo.

If the Chiefs O-line was so great, the top brass wouldn't have spent significant cap space and draft capital on replacing everyone. They replaced six players on that line and are getting two more back who opted out due to covid. That's eight new players this year than from the year prior. They made it a priority because it was terrible, regardless of what PFF suggests.
Eric Fisher tore an ACL in the playoffs and Mitchell Schwartz is 31 coming off an injury plagued year...

And they basically lost the Super Bowl because their O-line got demolished without those 2 guys in the lineup.

It's very possible that they're need to change their O-line was motivated by other factors than simply their O-line being terrible in 2020.