ninotoreS wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:14 pm
Moss had a cheat-code. Like Calvin Johnson and Julio Jones.
But Rice was elite for nearly 20 straight years, with a 92-1211-7 line in his
18th friggin' season. In Oakland. Following a 83-1139-9 line in his 17th season. In Oakland. So don't claim Rice's greatness was dependent on situation.
Rice was great. He would be great today. He was unbelievable, in fact. I just think Moss was better. Also, that Oakland was an entirely different Oakland than the one Randy stepped into. A very bad Collins (53% completion rate!?!?), Marques Tuiasosopo (even worse), Andrew Walter (ugh) and Aaron Brooks (come ON). Walter and Brooks combined for 6 TDs and 21 interceptions in 2006. Brooks was arguably his best QB with 8 starts, 3 TDs, 8 INTs and a team high (for the Randy years) 57.3% completion rate. That's the BEST QB performance they could muster. But yeah, Rice did better with the Raiders, so...
ninotoreS wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:14 pm
Of course we know Montana and Young were amazing, but Rice kept destroying the league in the weeks with luminaries like Jeff Kemp and Elvis Grbac throwing him the ball
You're right. Rice could dominate (and did) without needing a great QB. So could (and did) Moss. Jeff George, Spergeon Wynn, Todd Bouman, etc. Moss did well with these guys. Heck he had over 1000 with 53% completion Collins. All I'm saying is this isn't really a point that Rice holds over Moss.
ninotoreS wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:14 pm
and those last two seasons in Oakland were with Rich Gannon.
Yeah those last two seasons were impressive, no doubt. I remembered Gannon having a very good year in Oakland so I had to go look into it.
Gannon was throwing to Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Jerry Porter and had Charlie Garner to hand off to/dump many passes to. That must have been pretty fun for him, and explains his huge season, I suppose. Still, Gannon played very well that year and you have to give him some credit for being a capable QB. That's the worst starter Rice had to deal with, and it was pretty damn good. Moss' worst? Who to pick?
ninotoreS wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:14 pm
Besides... how do we know Montana and Young don't owe their careers to Rice just as much as Rice owes his to theirs?
They do, absolutely. Culpepper owes his career to Moss and it's not nearly as true the other way around.
ninotoreS wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:14 pm
Don't claim he benefited from his era, because back in the 80s-90s NFL offenses ran the ball more than they do now (Montana never had even one 4k passing yardage season, Young only had two, the only one Gannon ever got was with Rice as his #1)
Actually, one CAN argue that he benefited from his era. It's very simplistic to say "they ran more back then, so that made it harder on the WRs."
True, back in the 80s and 90s, the average NFL team ran more than they do now. They also didn't spread the ball around as much in the passing game, so the passing yards were often much more heavily funneled to the top couple WRs, with RBs and TEs getting on average less for targets. There were less targets and yards to go around per team, sure. Less targets and yards for a top WR on a good passing team? Not so sure.
What this heavy running style across the league also did was create a league with defenses dedicated to stopping the running backs. Team defenses weren't designed for stopping Montana to Rice. Those defenses were designed to stop Roger Craig (a phenom himself).
Just a memory of how a division rival attempted to immediately compensate for Moss: in 1999 (the offseason after Moss' rookie year) the Packers spent their first, second and third round picks on 3 new CBs. Did teams or defenses put as much into shutting down Jerry Rice? I honestly don't know.
ninotoreS wrote: ↑Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:14 pm
and also don't claim Rice beat less athletic cornerbacks, considering the lines he put up in games against Deion Sanders. Anyone really believe Primetime wouldn't be the league's best cover corner today if he were 25?
Was Primetime shadowing Rice? If so, and getting consistently burned, that's impressive. He faced Primetime twice a year. Does that mean the average DBs he was facing were as good as the average DBs Moss faced 15-20 years later? I don't know. Moss was burning the top DBs in the league, as well.
I really do think you have a good argument on Rice. He was obviously a remarkable WR. Most would side with you. I'm just responding to all of your points not to refute you, but just to say it's not "Rice, case closed" as you presented your argument. I think there are very valid arguments to be had for either one being the more talented WR. I'd take Moss.