Tom Brady: End of an Era?

[CokeAndBacardi]

So what are we talking about? Only running the ball in the 2nd half or pulling starters or both?

These guys are professionals. Are we worried about feelings getting hurt? Brady doesn't like coming out even for kneel downs. I doubt he wants to come out against supposedly the best team in the AFC in the midst of an MVP season. Most players have escalators and incentives in their contracts for hitting certain performance levels or snap percentages as well. Can't forget about fans around the world who paid to see guys like Brady play.

We can call it running up the score or whatever. The Patriots win their division every year and are always Super Bowl contenders. I can't think of a ton of teams with their credentials who flipped the competitive switch on and off at will.

Look at what the Texans did last week against the Titans - they let up in the 2nd half and weren't ready to play this week in New England.

Oh I have no problem with people keeping their foot on the gas, and agree with Jimmy Johnsons philosophy of "if you don't want to see us celebrate then stop us" mentality. The Seahawks replaced all their starters in the 2nd half and ran a similar offense as they ran in the first. I have ZERO problem with it (and in fact, enjoy it)...I even made the point that the Saints lost at least one game earlier this year by taking their foot off the gas. But you asked JFever, I believe, "Just curious - How will this cost them dearly?"...and my response was Ask Rob Gronkowski. He got hurt LATE in the game against the Rams, when he shouldn't have even been out there. Up 38-7 in the 4th Quarter with like 10 mins left in the game on 1st and goal catches a TD to make it 45-7. Why, up 31 points, against the lowly Rams offense is Gronk, Brady, Welker, etc all still in?

It was against the Colts and Gronk caught his last TD pass with 3:22 left in the 3rd quarter while up 14. The Patriots scored 3 times in the 4th (one INT and 2 rushing TD). Gronkowski's injury came on a PAT at 3:59. That drive went pass to Vereen, Vereen rush, Vereen rush, Pass to Welker, Vereen rush, Vereen rush, Vereen rush TD.

[joeday]

These guys are professionals. Are we worried about feelings getting hurt? Brady doesn't like coming out even for kneel downs. I doubt he wants to come out against supposedly the best team in the AFC in the midst of an MVP season. Most players have escalators and incentives in their contracts for hitting certain performance levels or snap percentages as well. Can't forget about fans around the world who paid to see guys like Brady play.

We can call it running up the score or whatever. The Patriots win their division every year and are always Super Bowl contenders. I can't think of a ton of teams with their credentials who flipped the competitive switch on and off at will.

Look at what the Texans did last week against the Titans - they let up in the 2nd half and weren't ready to play this week in New England.

Oh I have no problem with people keeping their foot on the gas, and agree with Jimmy Johnsons philosophy of "if you don't want to see us celebrate then stop us" mentality. The Seahawks replaced all their starters in the 2nd half and ran a similar offense as they ran in the first. I have ZERO problem with it (and in fact, enjoy it)...I even made the point that the Saints lost at least one game earlier this year by taking their foot off the gas. But you asked JFever, I believe, "Just curious - How will this cost them dearly?"...and my response was Ask Rob Gronkowski. He got hurt LATE in the game against the Rams, when he shouldn't have even been out there. Up 38-7 in the 4th Quarter with like 10 mins left in the game on 1st and goal catches a TD to make it 45-7. Why, up 31 points, against the lowly Rams offense is Gronk, Brady, Welker, etc all still in?

It was against the Colts and Gronk caught his last TD pass with 3:22 left in the 3rd quarter while up 14. The Patriots scored 3 times in the 4th (one INT and 2 rushing TD). Gronkowski's injury came on a PAT at 3:59. That drive went pass to Vereen, Vereen rush, Vereen rush, Pass to Welker, Vereen rush, Vereen rush, Vereen rush TD.

Good call. For some reason I thought it was before their Bye, not after. So Gronk hurt himself on the 59th point? Yeah I am thinking they can plug in a lineman for that sort of drive instead of Gronk.

[Jfever]

Yeah, when I said; eventually it'll cost them, I was referring to injuries like that. They seem to not learn...

But yeah, if your team is way up. I mean 4-5 TD's up and the other team's offense has done nothing in the game to show that they will make it competitive regardless of their record - Why can't a team run the ball a bit more? Try to.. try to improve in that area, rather than do what you always do... It just doesn't make sense to me in the slightest. I would have had some developmental players in there to give them experiance. I would have emphasized the run and worked toward improving my run blocking and execusion. One of these games, they will do this again. (it is inevitable) and Brady will be done. It is bound to happen. I personally am not a Pat's fan at all but I do recognize talent and I do think that players like T.Brady are good for the game. Frickin take him out when the game is locked up and give your younger player in Mallett a chance to learn with little to no stress put on him....

It doesnt seem that difficult to me... at all. Oh, and no way in h#*& Gronk needed to be in at the point he was in / blocking for a pat and the 59th point of a game... just plain stupid management of highly skilled players.

I just had deja vu. Had this same convo a couple weeks back. lol.

[CokeAndBacardi]

Yeah, when I said; eventually it'll cost them, I was referring to injuries like that. They seem to not learn...

But yeah, if your team is way up. I mean 4-5 TD's up and the other team's offense has done nothing in the game to show that they will make it competitive regardless of their record - Why can't a team run the ball a bit more? Try to.. try to improve in that area, rather than do what you always do... It just doesn't make sense to me in the slightest. I would have had some developmental players in there to give them experiance. I would have emphasized the run and worked toward improving my run blocking and execusion. One of these games, they will do this again. (it is inevitable) and Brady will be done. It is bound to happen. I personally am not a Pat's fan at all but I do recognize talent and I do think that players like T.Brady are good for the game. Frickin take him out when the game is locked up and give your younger player in Mallett a chance to learn with little to no stress put on him....

It doesnt seem that difficult to me... at all. Oh, and no way in h#*& Gronk needed to be in at the point he was in / blocking for a pat and the 59th point of a game... just plain stupid management of highly skilled players.

I just had deja vu. Had this same convo a couple weeks back. lol.

Good convo. Glad I could contribute to your flashback. Ha. I see the merit in what you guys are saying and agree to a certain extent. I just like how they seem to have 1 gear and wish my Bears were more like that.

As for why Gronk was still in there - I can't speak to the coaching decisions but I do know the Patriots had 2 TE's inactive that week and only had 3 reserve linemen. On a PAT, you have the holder, kicker and 9 blockers... 5 regular linemen + 3 reserves + Gronk = 9. I guess Hoomanawannaknowhowtospellthisname or Shiancoe could have filled in but who knows. Maybe they don't practice PATs. Gronk and every player on the field at that time seemed content with a simple PAT with the intensity of a kneel down. The two defenders on Gronk's end went after the ball like it was the only snap they'd every play and that snapped Gronk's forearm.

[CokeAndBacardi]

Tonight is why you never take your foot off the gas. Anything can happen in pro sports. Great game to watch.

[Jfever]

Entirely different game. S.F. was moving the ball on them and also was stoping them early in the game. S.F. seemed to have a ton of momentum but the score didn't reflect it. Heck, the score should have been different it seemed while watching the game.

Houston did next to nothing offensively for nearly the whole game last week - while N.E. was up 2, 3, then 4 Td's by halftime, then 5 TD's. Does that sound like the game you saw last night? Nope. The Games you are trying to compare are not comparable. Look up the stats/numbers and break them down by qtr.

I beleive you may have entirely missed the point of the post. I never said anything about taking out starters in a close game or a game in which the offenses are moving the ball and threatining. I was saying that in a Blow out game when the end result is very clear. (Like it was vs Houston in the 3rd quarter) There is no need to be passing the ball that often and running up scores.

[joeday]

Entirely different game. S.F. was moving the ball on them and also was stoping them early in the game. S.F. seemed to have a ton of momentum but the score didn't reflect it. Heck, the score should have been different it seemed while watching the game.

Houston did next to nothing offensively for nearly the whole game last week - while N.E. was up 2, 3, then 4 Td's by halftime, then 5 TD's. Does that sound like the game you saw last night? Nope. The Games you are trying to compare are not comparable. Look up the stats/numbers and break them down by qtr.

I beleive you may have entirely missed the point of the post. I never said anything about taking out starters in a close game or a game in which the offenses are moving the ball and threatining. I was saying that in a Blow out game when the end result is very clear. (Like it was vs Houston in the 3rd quarter) There is no need to be passing the ball that often and running up scores.

Plus its the Patriots offense with Tom Brady, Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez...not Sam Bradford and Brandon Gibson lol

[CokeAndBacardi]

Entirely different game. S.F. was moving the ball on them and also was stoping them early in the game. S.F. seemed to have a ton of momentum but the score didn't reflect it. Heck, the score should have been different it seemed while watching the game.

Houston did next to nothing offensively for nearly the whole game last week - while N.E. was up 2, 3, then 4 Td's by halftime, then 5 TD's. Does that sound like the game you saw last night? Nope. The Games you are trying to compare are not comparable. Look up the stats/numbers and break them down by qtr.

Let's see... One offense doing nothing, another team up 2/3/4 TD's around halftime... Where have I heard that story before? Oh yea, the Patriots were in the same situation they forced Houston into the week before:

Matt Schaub's "nothing" first half in Week 14: 12-23, 159 yards (6.9 ypa), Int, 56.2 rating
Tom Brady's magical Week 15 first half: 10-19, 76 yards (4.0 ypa), Int, 40.7 rating

Houston rushing in the first half Week 14: 13 rushes for 42 yards (3.2 yards per rush)
New England rushing in the first half Week 15: 12 rushes for 43 yards (3.6 yards per rush)

Houston's deficit with 24:49 to play in Week 14: 28 (28-0)
New England's deficit with 24:49 to play in Week 15: 28 (31-3)

If anything I would argue SF had more momentum last night after halftime than NE the week before. Did you see how SF came out in the 3rd? Ridley fumbled when they were down just 14 and Gore scored the next play. The 49ers intercepted Brady two plays later and Kaepernick hit Crabtree for a TD on the next play.

I beleive you may have entirely missed the point of the post. I never said anything about taking out starters in a close game or a game in which the offenses are moving the ball and threatining. I was saying that in a Blow out game when the end result is very clear. (Like it was vs Houston in the 3rd quarter) There is no need to be passing the ball that often and running up scores.

As I have shown above, NE put Houston in the same situation last Monday that SF put NE in last night. NE was moving the ball LESS effectively last night in the first 30 minutes than HOU the week before. I also showed in a previous post that NE did not pass much after going up 28 and the passes Brady did throw were much shorter on average than they were before the big lead.

Plus its the Patriots offense with Tom Brady, Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez...not Sam Bradford and Brandon Gibson lol

As we already established, the Patriots were playing Andrew Luck, Reggie Wayne, T.Y. Hilton, Dwayne Allen, etc. in the game where Gronkowski got hurt lol

[joeday]

Entirely different game. S.F. was moving the ball on them and also was stoping them early in the game. S.F. seemed to have a ton of momentum but the score didn't reflect it. Heck, the score should have been different it seemed while watching the game.

Houston did next to nothing offensively for nearly the whole game last week - while N.E. was up 2, 3, then 4 Td's by halftime, then 5 TD's. Does that sound like the game you saw last night? Nope. The Games you are trying to compare are not comparable. Look up the stats/numbers and break them down by qtr.

Let's see... One offense doing nothing, another team up 2/3/4 TD's around halftime... Where have I heard that story before? Oh yea, the Patriots were in the same situation they forced Houston into the week before:

Matt Schaub's "nothing" first half in Week 14: 12-23, 159 yards (6.9 ypa), Int, 56.2 rating
Tom Brady's magical Week 15 first half: 10-19, 76 yards (4.0 ypa), Int, 40.7 rating

Houston rushing in the first half Week 14: 13 rushes for 42 yards (3.2 yards per rush)
New England rushing in the first half Week 15: 12 rushes for 43 yards (3.6 yards per rush)

Houston's deficit with 24:49 to play in Week 14: 28 (28-0)
New England's deficit with 24:49 to play in Week 15: 28 (31-3)

If anything I would argue SF had more momentum last night after halftime than NE the week before. Did you see how SF came out in the 3rd? Ridley fumbled when they were down just 14 and Gore scored the next play. The 49ers intercepted Brady two plays later and Kaepernick hit Crabtree for a TD on the next play.

I beleive you may have entirely missed the point of the post. I never said anything about taking out starters in a close game or a game in which the offenses are moving the ball and threatining. I was saying that in a Blow out game when the end result is very clear. (Like it was vs Houston in the 3rd quarter) There is no need to be passing the ball that often and running up scores.

As I have shown above, NE put Houston in the same situation last Monday that SF put NE in last night. NE was moving the ball LESS effectively last night in the first 30 minutes than HOU the week before. I also showed in a previous post that NE did not pass much after going up 28 and the passes Brady did throw were much shorter on average than they were before the big lead.

Plus its the Patriots offense with Tom Brady, Wes Welker, Aaron Hernandez...not Sam Bradford and Brandon Gibson lol

As we already established, the Patriots were playing Andrew Luck, Reggie Wayne, T.Y. Hilton, Dwayne Allen, etc. in the game where Gronkowski got hurt lol

I was just commenting on another game where they didnt pull their starters late...like there is a difference about keeping your foot on the gas playing against Bradford and the Rams vs. Brady and the Patriots.

[Jfever]

Ok. Stats, once again can be pulled and listed to show one's opinion. If you watched both of those games, which I'm assuming you did, Did you think for one single second of the Houston game, that they had a chance? If so, we simply won't see eye to eye. The Houston game was a DIFFERENT GAME regardless of what you are "showing" so you say, with the numbers.

Pedal to the medal yes, sure, when it's needed... like last night.... pedal to the medal when it isn't needed (ie; N.E. vs Houston / last week) isn't needed.

Sometimes the eye test / watching the games are much more important that numbers. For example, Why was Brady throwing it deep / even if they were incompletes, while up 3 / 4 td's vs houston? The numbers won't show he was doing that as they were incompletions. He did complete on many of his shorter passes however / which I'll take as I think that is at times their version of a run game.

Cokenbacardi - you showed nothing more than how stats can be used to make ones point even though the two games had entirely different vibes to them. If you watched them, you already knew that.

[CokeAndBacardi]

Ok. Stats, once again can be pulled and listed to show one's opinion. If you watched both of those games, which I'm assuming you did, Did you think for one single second of the Houston game, that they had a chance? If so, we simply won't see eye to eye. The Houston game was a DIFFERENT GAME regardless of what you are "showing" so you say, with the numbers.

Pedal to the medal yes, sure, when it's needed... like last night.... pedal to the medal when it isn't needed (ie; N.E. vs Houston / last week) isn't needed.

Sometimes the eye test / watching the games are much more important that numbers. For example, Why was Brady throwing it deep / even if they were incompletes, while up 3 / 4 td's vs houston? The numbers won't show he was doing that as they were incompletions. He did complete on many of his shorter passes however / which I'll take as I think that is at times their version of a run game.

Cokenbacardi - you showed nothing more than how stats can be used to make ones point even though the two games had entirely different vibes to them. If you watched them, you already knew that.

You said: "Look up the stats/numbers and break them down by qtr." I did. Sorry if the results aren't what you expected. I didn't reach for any wild statistics to prove a point. They're simply first half numbers. The losing team each trailed by 28 five minutes after halftime. I promise that's all the digging I did to find these stats.

I just don't see what you're getting at. I definitely did watch both games and I am trying to understand your points. It's tough when you say the games can't be compared for the following reasons:

1) One team moved the ball well early while stopping the other
2) One team had a ton of momentum
3) One team did next to nothing offensively
4) One team was up 4 TDs in the 2nd half

ALL of those points can be applied to the winning team in each of NE's last two games. Can they not?

If anything NE was in WORSE shape last night than HOU was the week before when you complained NE was running up the score. NE at halftime last night:

70 passing yards, 43 rushing yards, 113 total yards, 6 first downs, 0-for-7 on third down, 2 turnovers

HOU at halftime last Monday night in NE:

135 passing yards, 42 rushing yards, 177 total yards, 10 first downs, 2-for-8 on third down, 1 turnover

You can go to any eyeball test you want but that sounds like a cop out in this case. NE was awful in the first half last night no matter how you slice it. They came out even worse in the 2nd half before going down 31-3. All I said was you can never count any team out. Suggesting NE was in a better place than HOU was the week before just after halftime needs more basis than the eyeball test. They were down and out. My friends who are Patriots fans all switched over to the "Homeland" finale instead of watching their team get beat up.

We are talking about two teams who are near the top of their respective conferences being down BIG early against another team at the top of their respective conferences. Complain all you want about the Pats not sitting guys or not moving to a 2 RB/2 TE backfield formation and running into the line for 30 minutes against a team like the Rams. However, you can't complain about a potential 1 seed in the AFC "running up the score" on another potential 1 seed in the AFC. As NE proved last night against a high seed from the NFC, no lead is ever safe.

[joeday]

I honestly never thought people would argue that NE doesnt run up the score? lol...theyve been doing that since like 2004 lol. Soon you are gonna say Pete wasn't running up the score the last two weeks in SEA. Ironically Pete is the one who cried when Stanford (with Harbaugh) ran up the score on his USC Trojans.

I am in the camp that all these players are pros and if you dont want them to score points then stop them, but come on, you cant tell me there isnt some running up of the scores in a lot of these games.

[CokeAndBacardi]

The Patriots were up 21-0 at halftime. They came out and threw 27, 18, 31 and 27 yards down field on the opening drive. All of those deep passes fell incomplete. After that, Brady threw the following distances downfield: 6, 2, 2, 32 (TD/kill shot to go up 28-0), 5, 7, 4, 14, 6, -4, 7, 0. They didn't pass after 9:41 in the 4th.

And I will bump this from the week before. The Patriots were up 21 and came out of halftime with some long passes. Is that a bad thing against he AFC's #1 seed you're trying to chase for home field advantage? Every other pass the rest of the game was conservative with the exception of that one bomb to Lloyd that ended up being the dagger. I suspect that's what NE was looking for with the four long passes to start the half.

What did SF did last night when they were up 21 a few minutes into the third quarter? They went for the dagger and bombed it to Crabtree in the end zone. Did they need it at the time? No. Did they end up needing it in the end? Yes. The answer to the second question should not matter in professional football. You never know how many points you need.

[Jfever]

Ok. They do run up the score and they are good at it. That's why people get sick of it... just my opinion though. To say they don't is just crazy talk. Personally, I have a different philosophy is all when it comes to coaching. But, admittedly, Belichick is pretty smart... so, who am I to say. I guess I see Houston as more of a run team and a team that will have a difficult time coming from behind So when N.E. held Houston to 1 visit to the red zone in the first half of that game while scoring nearly at will, I felt that game was over early. Houston was never in that game. They had no momentum and frankly the TD that they got late was all garbage time right around the 2min mark at the end.

If history has shown us anything, N.E. IS a passing team and T.Brady is good. So..... when they are down, Since they CLEARLY are a passing team, imo, they are not nearly as unlikely to come back as most other teams, even if some of those other teams are ranked high in their respective divisions. T.Brady and his recieving corp > Houston, Schaub, and their recieving corp. Hence, N.E. will be in a lot more games even if they are down by a couple 3 scores while Houston comes across as a team that thrives when they get a lead - which they usually do as their Defense has been a strength for them for the majority of the season (aside from the N.E. Game). I'm not taking away from the acuracy of your stats. Just saying that they do not tell the whole story. Does that clear up the misunderstanding?

Just a different angle.

Make sense?

[CokeAndBacardi]

I honestly never thought people would argue that NE doesnt run up the score? lol...theyve been doing that since like 2004 lol. Soon you are gonna say Pete wasn't running up the score the last two weeks in SEA. Ironically Pete is the one who cried when Stanford (with Harbaugh) ran up the score on his USC Trojans.

I am in the camp that all these players are pros and if you dont want them to score points then stop them, but come on, you cant tell me there isnt some running up of the scores in a lot of these games.

I hear what you're saying. And I guarantee you jfever will not complain one lick about what happened in Buffalo yesterday because it wasn't the evil Patriots. The Seahawks converted a fake punt when up 30 in the 4th quarter yesterday.

All I am saying in this: You cannot take any lead for granted in the NFL, especially against a team like the Texans, Patriots and 49ers. It looks like "running up the score" one week and "necessary points" the following week when there's a comeback. As I stated before, Brady took exactly ONE shot after the Patriots' first drive in the second half last week. That was when they were up 21. The 49ers took a shot when up 21 last night and ended up needing that shot badly after a 28 point lead was erased.