Trade Etiquette Questions Thread

[ckrumm24]

Agree 100% My post referenced "Openly" playing owners against each other. Integrity is an important component to trades if you ever hope to trade with that owner again.

I don't want to stray too far from the purpose of this thread for the the use of my own philosophical point of view, but I would challenge those who think openly playing owners against each other "lacks integrity". I DON'T do it and wouldn't recommend anyone else do it because there is a LARGE amount of fantasy owners who think it's bad form, leading to unnecessary tension or teams not wanting to trade with you. In reality, it's no different than auctioning anything else in life.....

I attend many fundraisers annually. "Silent Auctions" are Good Form......Just saying...

I hope this is a joke

[DLF3000]

There are a trillion trade advice/etiquette threads for a reason - we all value players differently and we all have different trade strategy/negotiating preferences.

Best bottom line trade advice I've seen here is: learn who you're dealing with as far as your league's individual GMs and adjust your approach accordingly.

And yes, that might mean extreme approaches (e.g. some GMs just don't trade, for a variety of reasons).

[lawilt]

Just curious what people's thoughts are on this...

If someone comes to you asking what you'd want from their team for X of yours, and you send them a list back of things you would value. If they tell you to make them an offer, do you even bother moving forward?

Last several weeks I've had multiple owners try this approach, then counter and low ball me back. Just don't see the point of engaging in trade talks if people start out this way.

[joeya2001]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=199763&p=1830566&hi ... e#p1830566


These pop up a lot so here ya go!

[FiremanEd]

Just curious what people's thoughts are on this...

If someone comes to you asking what you'd want from their team for X of yours, and you send them a list back of things you would value. If they tell you to make them an offer, do you even bother moving forward?

Last several weeks I've had multiple owners try this approach, then counter and low ball me back. Just don't see the point of engaging in trade talks if people start out this way.

I get that quite a bit and also find it annoying. Generally speaking, the trades I complete are ones that I offer or initiate, but I think that if you're the motivated one to get the deal going that you should send the offer or concept. I don't like the idea of someone wanting something and then wanting me to do the work to make the offer. If i want something I'll do the work. If you want something, you do the work. Ultimately we want to end at the same place, which is a mutually beneficial deal, but often I find the values aren't aligned anyway when someone reaches out and go no where...and i've wasted my time while they sat back and did nothing. If you set the stage for me I can assess and then determine if I want to go further based on how you value the player.

[OhCruelestRanter]

Nobody likes these guys, but I tend to send them offers if they ask for them. Here's why.

First, these people generally do this because they are insecure with their own valuations. They don't want to send you an offer, because they're afraid that you'll accept it and they'll "lose the trade." They want you to send the offer, so they can counter it, and they can feel like they won the deal. They're marks.

Second, if you don't trade with them, unless you're in a really inactive league, somebody is going to. You want to be the person in your league who's making trades with the mark, not the person shutting them out.

I've found that these marks come in two specific flavors- the one you can get deals done with but needs to be negotiated down, and the one who only wants to make trades that are wildly lopsided. If I've identified somebody as the latter, I'll generally move on. Until that happens, however, I treat everybody like the former.

What I've found works best is to send these guys an offer that's clearly a win for you but just barely on the side of still being plausible, and then let them negotiate their way to what feels like a win for them, but you still clearly prefer. Sometimes they'll counter with something you can't believe they sent, and you snap accept. Sometimes you never get anywhere, but at least you now have a working relationship with the mark, as opposed to the guy who refused to send him the offer.

[Flgatorguy87]

Nobody likes these guys, but I tend to send them offers if they ask for them. Here's why.

First, these people generally do this because they are insecure with their own valuations. They don't want to send you an offer, because they're afraid that you'll accept it and they'll "lose the trade." They want you to send the offer, so they can counter it, and they can feel like they won the deal. They're marks.

Second, if you don't trade with them, unless you're in a really inactive league, somebody is going to. You want to be the person in your league who's making trades with the mark, not the person shutting them out.

I've found that these marks come in two specific flavors- the one you can get deals done with but needs to be negotiated down, and the one who only wants to make trades that are wildly lopsided. If I've identified somebody as the latter, I'll generally move on. Until that happens, however, I treat everybody like the former.

What I've found works best is to send these guys an offer that's clearly a win for you but just barely on the side of still being plausible, and then let them negotiate their way to what feels like a win for them, but you still clearly prefer. Sometimes they'll counter with something you can't believe they sent, and you snap accept. Sometimes you never get anywhere, but at least you now have a working relationship with the mark, as opposed to the guy who refused to send him the offer.

This is almost exactly my interactions with these type of guys. The "likes to trade talk but not actually trade because I am insecure" guys are super common. Several in my league are so concerned about not losing a trade they never offer much realistic. It's almost the same conversations every time we talk trades.

[lawilt]

LOL I seem to be dealing with a lot in your second category. I've sent fair offers out to some of them but the counters I get are so bad I just don't even bother at that point. I don't know how some can put up with it.

[stoneghost28]

Just my thoughts. Find your trade partner with specific players in mind and not nebulous and vague offers, do your homework ahead of the offer and know values on each side. Find try to put forth a pretty fair deal early on and be prepared to substitute closely valued alternatives, try to see the other owner’s players from their point of view, and be positive and have fun with it, even when the trade doesn't work out. When I put forth trade offers, other owners always listen and discuss rather than just shutting it down - because I’ve made myself a person others like to trade with.

This is a super helpful perspective, I appreciate you taking the time to share. In the past when I've traded, I've had folks approach me with a specific offer, or I've approached another owner with a very specific opening offer. I've never used the trade block or publicly asked folks to give offers for an asset of high value, so it is very valuable to get input from others for this type of situation. I just want to ensure that I am doing it the right way and staying valued as a trade partner while also not missing out on the best deal. I think I'll just have to keep working and find that balance.

There’s nothing wrong with posting at the trade bait page or sending out an all-call to a MB or the league email. Just a couple of thoughts from my perspective on doing that: 1) you are giving the perception to others that you don’t value those players as highly and that they are expendable. That may not be your intent or position, but it is a likely and reasonable reaction from others. Be aware of that, 2) by doing so, you are putting others in the drivers seat as far as assigning value. That’s fine, but know that their idea of value may not match yours, and 3) you are asking others to do the work and be the aggressors. You may miss out on opportunities for trades from more passive owners who prefer to let the offers come to them. In fact, you may find that you are one of the more passive owners and don’t mind letting others do the heavy lifting in trade deals. That’s okay too. There are others in the league who likely enjoy doing the research and value fitting.

It’s all a matter of finding what works best for you.

I don't think this is really true. I hear this argument a lot, but I find it's only true with certain owners, not all, and certainly not me. For example, in many leagues, people simply use the Trade Bait function as a clearing house for their trash before roster cut downs preceding a rookie draft. In fact, I'd say that this is how a majority of owners actually use Trade Bait in the offseason.

An example, one of the better players in my oldest league posted one three weeks ago:
Lazard, J. Meyers, Agholor, a freaking kicker etc.

In the same league, Benny Snell, Will Dissly (I like this entry because unlike many, he mentions what he's looking for: Trade Bait w/o any mention of what you're looking for in terms of compensation (Young players, or picks or both or vets?) is exceedingly annoying.

In another league:
Peyton Barber WAS RB
Kirk Cousins MIN QB
Latavius Murray NO RB
Bo Scarbrough DET RB
Justin Jackson LAC RB
Damien Harris NE RB
Ted Ginn Jr. NO WR
Mohamed Sanu NE WR
Los Angeles Rams LAR DE
Jordan Reed FA TE
DeSean Jackson PHI WR
Devin Funchess GB WR

Other than Cousins, that entire list is a whose who of guys nobody with any sense would even want to waste a roster spot on right before a rookie draft.

Essentially, in the offseason, that's what I see more often than not in Trade Bait's. Just collections of roster detritus people are trying to remove to accommodate rookie pick roster spots by the summer, the problem is, everyone's trying to make roster space and the only owners who might speculate on the above garbage would be a recent orphan buyer looking to blow up a roster, and add picks and potential vets who might climb in value and then become worth something in season to flip for more value.

I tend to see Trade Bait's as either that, or just listings of players people want to move. They could have innumerable reasons to move people, could be they're well stocked at the position and need to improve another position, could be that like me, they prefer to sell RB's a year early rather than a year late, could be they just love flipping players for picks. Millions of reasons.

I honestly think it's just a problem w/owners themselves when they assume a player should have less value because it's listed in a bait. The player has the value he has, period. Maybe you're dealing with a rube, maybe you're dealing with someone whose got an inflated sense of the value in their own players, who knows. For me, the players value is whats reflected in the market place, what are they going for in startups, where are they ranked? When I'm trying to buy, or sell, I'm just looking at inefficiencies I see in a valuation, is a veteran selling at peak value, or too cheaply? Is a young player selling too cheaply to me? Is a RB about to hit that age cliff concern? Is his rookie deal about up and his team unlikely to resign him? Or if I am rebuilding an orphan, or doing a tear down of a roster I'm unhappy with, how can I max out the value w/picks from the right drafts (for instance, targeting '17 and '18 and '20 picks for RB's, and '19 and '20 and '21 for WR's, and '17-'19 for TE's, and '17, '18 and '20 for QB's) and avoid going heavy w/picks in the wrong drafts ('16, '19 other than WR/TE, '21 looks sketchy because of potential pull backs for red shirting if the college season doesn't happen, and also potential usage of the July '20 Supplemental Draft-am actually curious about how rookie drafts handle supplemental draft prospects, what if Etienne and Hubbard decided to declare for the '20 Supplemental?).

I do get that there are owners that perceive trade bait as an opportunity to buy low on guys, to send in crap offers and hope to steal talent that way, but when you're trading, hopefully you're not foolish enough to sell below market value. You have DLF Analyzer, DLF ADP, other calculators, and even the MFL ADP to give you a guide on values. There's no reason to except garbage offers just because of the prejudices individuals may bring to what "trade bait" means. Personally I use Trade Bait to both alert the league to the fact that players on my roster are available, even if they think they might not be (say an AJ Brown or a Barkley), and also to just jump start potential trade talk for players I've offered only to a few specific owners because of their assets, and am then willing to open to the league as a whole (recently did that in a league with Chubb/Amari, where I was targeting a picks package in the blue chip zone, and used Trade Bait to alert the rest of the league that I was willing to consider dealing one or both of these guys).

As you mention (I think it was you), do be assertive about trading. Don't simply post a trade bait and be done at that, do some ground work, throw some offers around, and at least in my case, I also like to tell people what I actually want in a general sense (young players, picks in '20 or '22 etc). Posting a trade bait and making zero reference of what you'd like in compensation is likely to draw one of two responses: 1. garbage offers and 2. no offers at all.

[Johnny B. Goode]

This is a super helpful perspective, I appreciate you taking the time to share. In the past when I've traded, I've had folks approach me with a specific offer, or I've approached another owner with a very specific opening offer. I've never used the trade block or publicly asked folks to give offers for an asset of high value, so it is very valuable to get input from others for this type of situation. I just want to ensure that I am doing it the right way and staying valued as a trade partner while also not missing out on the best deal. I think I'll just have to keep working and find that balance.

There’s nothing wrong with posting at the trade bait page or sending out an all-call to a MB or the league email. Just a couple of thoughts from my perspective on doing that: 1) you are giving the perception to others that you don’t value those players as highly and that they are expendable. That may not be your intent or position, but it is a likely and reasonable reaction from others. Be aware of that, 2) by doing so, you are putting others in the drivers seat as far as assigning value. That’s fine, but know that their idea of value may not match yours, and 3) you are asking others to do the work and be the aggressors. You may miss out on opportunities for trades from more passive owners who prefer to let the offers come to them. In fact, you may find that you are one of the more passive owners and don’t mind letting others do the heavy lifting in trade deals. That’s okay too. There are others in the league who likely enjoy doing the research and value fitting.

It’s all a matter of finding what works best for you.

I don't think this is really true. I hear this argument a lot, but I find it's only true with certain owners, not all, and certainly not me. For example, in many leagues, people simply use the Trade Bait function as a clearing house for their trash before roster cut downs preceding a rookie draft. In fact, I'd say that this is how a majority of owners actually use Trade Bait in the offseason.

An example, one of the better players in my oldest league posted one three weeks ago:
Lazard, J. Meyers, Agholor, a freaking kicker etc.

In the same league, Benny Snell, Will Dissly (I like this entry because unlike many, he mentions what he's looking for: Trade Bait w/o any mention of what you're looking for in terms of compensation (Young players, or picks or both or vets?) is exceedingly annoying.

In another league:
Peyton Barber WAS RB
Kirk Cousins MIN QB
Latavius Murray NO RB
Bo Scarbrough DET RB
Justin Jackson LAC RB
Damien Harris NE RB
Ted Ginn Jr. NO WR
Mohamed Sanu NE WR
Los Angeles Rams LAR DE
Jordan Reed FA TE
DeSean Jackson PHI WR
Devin Funchess GB WR

Other than Cousins, that entire list is a whose who of guys nobody with any sense would even want to waste a roster spot on right before a rookie draft.

some fantastic pieces to trade for in some of those trade baits. IMO Cousins is the one I wouldnt care to roster unless I heeded a qb2
Lazard... should be in line for a great season
Sanu... you wouldnt want to roster him?
Funchess... great opportunity; if GB didnt sign Funchess, and drafted a WR round 1 or 2,that WR would be extremely valuable
Justin Jackson, Harris... some good stuff here

[Mephistopheles]

LOL I seem to be dealing with a lot in your second category. I've sent fair offers out to some of them but the counters I get are so bad I just don't even bother at that point. I don't know how some can put up with it.

Most (2/3 or so) of modern day DFF owners are like this. They don't see any point in making a fair deal that benefits both sides. Always want a sizable discount on buying a player (or a premium to sell their player). They're clueless about the psychology of trading and only see "their" side of the deal. That's why you see the PSA and the top 5 in my sig.

Here's a typical experience:
I was in a league a few years back, which I left after 2018 season because the trade offers were just getting ridiculous. I finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in 2016, 2017, 2018 with a team I rebuilt from the trash heap. Drafting Adams, Zeke, DJ and several others did not hurt in that regard, for sure. Should have won in 2016 but lost because of collusion, but that's another anecdote for another time.

Anyway, one owner wanted to trade for Zeke. First offer by him was Bell (middle of a holdout) for Zeke and Adams. Now, I am a two time championship game participant, and in the middle of a season where I am leading the league in VP's in 2018. Trading the #1 RB and a top 5 WR for a guy in a holdout makes no sense. But that's what this idiot wanted me to do. So I shut him down.

He follows up, asking what it would take for Zeke, I respond that he needs to put up Kamara and add a bit to it, maybe someone like Austin Hooper. He gets angry with me because his objective is to pair Zeke and Kamara. OK, but what's in it for me? How does this deal help me? That's the part that 2/3 of DFF owners today do not understand.