Josh Gordon

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Cowboysfan33
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Cowboysfan33 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:59 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
dlf_nickw wrote:To look at it another way, lets say OBJ got busted for drugs last offseason and missed 2015. Busted again in 2016 and didn't play. Would you not pay a late 1st for him for 2017 and beyond?
I would be very hesitant, yes. Missing two seasons worth of time is a big deal in a professional sport. Also, the red flag would be the character concerns. Why should I believe it won't happen again? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

It's very risk-averse, but I just prefer not to invest in players who have drug/character problems. Most of the time, it doesn't end well. We heard this same stuff about Gordon last time before he was suspended again. "He's learned his lesson, he realizes his future in the NFL, he's going to do this, he's going to do that." I can believe in second chances, just not thirds.


This. Gordon has already had a bunch of chances and keeps messing up. No matter how ridiculous the NFLs rules may or may not be, he keeps breaking them.
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Re: Josh Gordo

Postby tra151 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:05 am

[quote="JFever"][quote="bcoogan23"][quote="dlf_nickw"]
To look at it another way, lets say OBJ got busted for drugs last offseason and missed 2015. Busted again in 2016 and didn't play. Would you not pay a late 1st for him for 2017 and beyond?[/quote]

I would love that, I personally think he's a douche and the media takes anything he does and acts like he just discovered a new solar system. On a weekly basis people act like Beckham does things never before done in football...[/quote]


x2 ^ 100% feel the same way.

Great talent but, overblown by the media. Almost makes me a little nauseated at times. Man, The NFC East is kind of a Joke. Their records, their mediocre teams... and their complete over coverage by the media. Unreal. :think: Before I get bashed by the OBJ cult, let me say - Yes OBJ is a great talent, yes, I'd confidently draft him as a top 3 start up pick and be very happy about it. But for all that is good in the world... act like you've been there. I hate hearing young kids mention him and pretend to be him, and then celebrate like him after a play.

AND - He makes a good / great catch for a professional football player in a game (which is his job and frankly what is expected of him/ and what many other wr's do with fair regularity) - and bam... I have to see him over and over and over on each and every ESPN highlight with the talking heads blah blah blahing over it... Cripes.


I"m just a bitter ex owner that sold on him Way early... kicks dirt, turns, and slowly walks away... :(

Sorry to derail thread. Back to Gordon. AS a fan of the NFL, I'm rooting for him. As an owner in fantasy, glad I was able to sell for a 2016 rookie pick in the 8-10 range.[/quote]


I find it odd that in a thread about an extremely questionable character player that you reference OBJ and his motivation of young kids to strive to be like him. I see many kids I coach trying to make the OBJ CATCH and I think it's awesome. My son(who is 7) watches him on YouTube, and then tries to make catches on his back in the living room. I think he's a pretty good example for kids to work towards. Not meant to offend, just an observation from my point of view.

I'm not a cult OBJ guy, but I do think he is an elite talent that has an elite work ethic to go with it. He also seems to bring something a little different or new to the table, hence the media coverage.

To underail the thread again, I have josh Gordon and I'm hoping he stays in this direction. Obviously he's an add if he's available. The risk is always going to be there at this point due to the microscope and the fact that he has been so adept at screwing up, but at this point I would hold until closer to the regular season even for first
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby ericanadian » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:56 am

49ersFaithful80 wrote:You people don't think it's weird that every single time he fails a test there is some crazy story about how it wasn't his fault at all? You don't realize these are bullshit stories that his agent feeds the media?

Let's see....

He fails for weed...oh it was second hand smoke from his buddies...yea sure.

Fails for codeine...oh it was a very rare form of cough syrup that still uses codeine.

Fails for alcohol...oh he had one tiny celebratory drink on a flight.

You people can't actually think all of these stories are completely true right?
For me, it's more does it matter? He probably took a couple puffs of weed. Does that make him a bad person? I'm not really familiar with recreational use of codeine so it's difficult for me to make an assessment of the situation on that one. He had two beers, not one tiny celebratory drink. I'm not sure why that's hard to believe and even if he was hammered, he was on his own time, headed to Vegas.
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby TheChicken » Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:51 am

I'm taking it as read that the fact he hasn't scored a TD in his last 7 games and only had 1 100+ yard game in that timeframe is not a concern either.

At least being suspended means he isn't in your starting line up scoring only 6pts a game.
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby nwhalen » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:32 am

Cameron Giles wrote:
dlf_nickw wrote:To look at it another way, lets say OBJ got busted for drugs last offseason and missed 2015. Busted again in 2016 and didn't play. Would you not pay a late 1st for him for 2017 and beyond?
I would be very hesitant, yes. Missing two seasons worth of time is a big deal in a professional sport. Also, the red flag would be the character concerns. Why should I believe it won't happen again? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

It's very risk-averse, but I just prefer not to invest in players who have drug/character problems. Most of the time, it doesn't end well. We heard this same stuff about Gordon last time before he was suspended again. "He's learned his lesson, he realizes his future in the NFL, he's going to do this, he's going to do that." I can believe in second chances, just not thirds.
The following players have all been either suspended(NFL or college), in trouble with the law, character concerns, and/or drugs or alcohol:
Blount, Gurley, Dez, Sammy Watkins, Marshall, Rawls, Le'Veon Bell, Vernon Davis, Martavis Bryant, Adrian Peterson, ASJ, Michael Floyd, Carlos Hyde. All of them overcame the problem and succeeded.

Every player has a buying point. Whether we hate them or not, they represent a value that we can no longer ignore. For example, I bought DMC when the Cmike/Randle love was going on. I paid a future 2nd(in a devy league, which makes it a 3rd) for DMC and Latimer. I wasn't a a big fan of DMC, but he represented a value at that point which made me buy.

I'm fully aware that Gordon has messed up multiple times and may mess up in the future. However, the price to buy him is still low enough that i'm willing to take the risk. If he gets suspended again and done with football, I can live with it. But if he turns into a WR1 and all I had to pay was an early 2nd/late 1st in a down rookie class, I would be upset I didn't pull the trigger. This isn't just a 1 year thing either. It's possible Gordon has 6 WR1/2 seasons left in him or more.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Csl312 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:41 am

dlf_nickw wrote:
The following players have all been either suspended(NFL or college), in trouble with the law, character concerns, and/or drugs or alcohol:
Blount, Gurley, Dez, Sammy Watkins, Marshall, Rawls, Le'Veon Bell, Vernon Davis, Martavis Bryant, Adrian Peterson, ASJ, Michael Floyd, Carlos Hyde. All of them overcame the problem and succeeded.
To be fair the list of players with character concerns who did not overcome their issues is likely longer than the success story list. Also, Brandon Marshall has borderline personality disorder and has been a model citizen since seeking treatment. And Josh Gordon is on the list of guys who have had multiple chances and screwed up multiple times. I fear the players in the NFL who came back from that is a very short list.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby nwhalen » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:56 am

Csl312 wrote:
dlf_nickw wrote:
The following players have all been either suspended(NFL or college), in trouble with the law, character concerns, and/or drugs or alcohol:
Blount, Gurley, Dez, Sammy Watkins, Marshall, Rawls, Le'Veon Bell, Vernon Davis, Martavis Bryant, Adrian Peterson, ASJ, Michael Floyd, Carlos Hyde. All of them overcame the problem and succeeded.
To be fair the list of players with character concerns who did not overcome their issues is likely longer than the success story list. Also, Brandon Marshall has borderline personality disorder and has been a model citizen since seeking treatment. And Josh Gordon is on the list of guys who have had multiple chances and screwed up multiple times. I fear the players in the NFL who came back from that is a very short list.
I was only speaking to "most of the time, it doesn't end well" I would actually like to see a list of players that haven't succeeded, if someone would like to come up with one.

Brandon Marshall - As a Bears fan, i'm probably more tuned into his stuff than the masses. I like Marshall, but borderline personality disorder has no cure. Only techniques that can help change someone's mindset. During a game, Marshall would still blow up..but then sit down and try to calm himself down. If he was a model citizen since seeking treatment, he would still be in Chicago. He wasn't and caused issues in the locker room. Therefore, the Bears traded him for a mid round pick. Multiple times Marshall has had issues off the field, yet succeeded in FF.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Cameron Giles » Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:07 am

dlf_nickw wrote: The following players have all been either suspended(NFL or college), in trouble with the law, character concerns, and/or drugs or alcohol:
Blount, Gurley, Dez, Sammy Watkins, Marshall, Rawls, Le'Veon Bell, Vernon Davis, Martavis Bryant, Adrian Peterson, ASJ, Michael Floyd, Carlos Hyde. All of them overcame the problem and succeeded.

Every player has a buying point. Whether we hate them or not, they represent a value that we can no longer ignore. For example, I bought DMC when the Cmike/Randle love was going on. I paid a future 2nd(in a devy league, which makes it a 3rd) for DMC and Latimer. I wasn't a a big fan of DMC, but he represented a value at that point which made me buy.

I'm fully aware that Gordon has messed up multiple times and may mess up in the future. However, the price to buy him is still low enough that i'm willing to take the risk. If he gets suspended again and done with football, I can live with it. But if he turns into a WR1 and all I had to pay was an early 2nd/late 1st in a down rookie class, I would be upset I didn't pull the trigger. This isn't just a 1 year thing either. It's possible Gordon has 6 WR1/2 seasons left in him or more.
I couldn't. I do agree that late 1st round picks tend to be overvalued in trades, but it's to the point where I would rather take a shot on a rookie than a player who has been given multiple chances to straighten up and has failed. Why watch the movie a third time when I already know the ending? It will surprise nobody to wake up one morning and read about Gordon's 3rd suspension.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby nwhalen » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:02 am

Cameron Giles wrote:
dlf_nickw wrote: The following players have all been either suspended(NFL or college), in trouble with the law, character concerns, and/or drugs or alcohol:
Blount, Gurley, Dez, Sammy Watkins, Marshall, Rawls, Le'Veon Bell, Vernon Davis, Martavis Bryant, Adrian Peterson, ASJ, Michael Floyd, Carlos Hyde. All of them overcame the problem and succeeded.

Every player has a buying point. Whether we hate them or not, they represent a value that we can no longer ignore. For example, I bought DMC when the Cmike/Randle love was going on. I paid a future 2nd(in a devy league, which makes it a 3rd) for DMC and Latimer. I wasn't a a big fan of DMC, but he represented a value at that point which made me buy.

I'm fully aware that Gordon has messed up multiple times and may mess up in the future. However, the price to buy him is still low enough that i'm willing to take the risk. If he gets suspended again and done with football, I can live with it. But if he turns into a WR1 and all I had to pay was an early 2nd/late 1st in a down rookie class, I would be upset I didn't pull the trigger. This isn't just a 1 year thing either. It's possible Gordon has 6 WR1/2 seasons left in him or more.
I couldn't. I do agree that late 1st round picks tend to be overvalued in trades, but it's to the point where I would rather take a shot on a rookie than a player who has been given multiple chances to straighten up and has failed. Why watch the movie a third time when I already know the ending? It will surprise nobody to wake up one morning and read about Gordon's 3rd suspension.
You don't know the ending and this is why he's a value because many have dismissed him. The risk is already calculated into his value. If he was valued as a top 30 asset, I am passing. Remember when everyone dismissed Randy Moss after he was in Oakland and a diva/character concerns/etc? Some people capitalized on that value and won championships. We're running around in circles here. You're conservative, i'm willing to take a risk...have a good one.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby ericanadian » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:23 pm

This is just off the top of my head, so I'm sure I'm missing a few, but those that have washed out of the NFL due to drug/character issues:

David Boston
Charles Rogers
Matt Jones
Justin Blackmon
Aaron Hernandez
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby BlueDemons33 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:06 pm

dlf_nickw wrote:
You don't know the ending and this is why he's a value because many have dismissed him. The risk is already calculated into his value. If he was valued as a top 30 asset, I am passing. Remember when everyone dismissed Randy Moss after he was in Oakland and a diva/character concerns/etc? Some people capitalized on that value and won championships. We're running around in circles here. You're conservative, i'm willing to take a risk...have a good one.
This.^

It's all about how you perceive risk. This conversation has been beat to death. His going rate is usually a mid-late first to an early 2nd+. If you think he's worth the risk take it. If not, don't buy him at that price point and take a flier on a rookie. It's as simple as that.

Personally, I'm taking the flier on Gordon at the price point.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby HawkeyeState » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:03 am

Wanted to revive this thread as we are 21 days away from the first possible date that Gordon can apply for reinstatement.
Anyone know any scenario where he wouldn't be reinstated? Obviously any positive test. But did he need to complete off field therapy/classes etc. to meet NFL guidelines? Anyone know?

Also, assuming he is reinstated, what's his value once he is reinstated?
What's his value today without knowing if he will be reinstated?

Also, my memory isn't serving me well and I can't find anything with quick google search; What point is he at in the substance abuse process? His last offense he was punished under the old collective bargaining agreement. Does he know get transitioned into the new policy with less harsh penalties and more offenses allowed before being completely banned? Or does he stay in the old policy and his next strike is a ban (I believe that is the next step after the 1 year ban he just got under the old policy)
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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby dm1129 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:22 am

HawkeyeState wrote:Wanted to revive this thread as we are 21 days away from the first possible date that Gordon can apply for reinstatement.
Anyone know any scenario where he wouldn't be reinstated? Obviously any positive test. But did he need to complete off field therapy/classes etc. to meet NFL guidelines? Anyone know?

Also, assuming he is reinstated, what's his value once he is reinstated?
What's his value today without knowing if he will be reinstated?

Also, my memory isn't serving me well and I can't find anything with quick google search; What point is he at in the substance abuse process? His last offense he was punished under the old collective bargaining agreement. Does he know get transitioned into the new policy with less harsh penalties and more offenses allowed before being completely banned? Or does he stay in the old policy and his next strike is a ban (I believe that is the next step after the 1 year ban he just got under the old policy)

I posted this a few months ago, but I think it is worth revisiting as Gordon's possible reinstatement is nearing.

The following is directly from the NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE POLICY AND PROGRAM ON SUBSTANCES OF ABUSE:


(b) Discipline for Stage Three Violations
Failure to Comply in Stage Three: A Player who: fails to cooperate with
testing, treatment, evaluation or other requirements imposed on him by this
Policy or fails to comply with his Treatment Plan, both as determined by the
Medical Director; or who has a Positive Test Result, will be banished from
the NFL for a minimum period of one (1) calendar year.
Banishment: A Player banished from the NFL pursuant to this subsection
will be required to adhere to his Treatment Plan and the provisions of this
Intervention Program during his banishment. During a Player’s period of
banishment, his NFL Player Contract shall be tolled.
(c) Ten-Game Suspension for Marijuana
If a Player’s first Positive Test Result after being advanced to Stage Three is
for marijuana, the Player shall be suspended without pay for ten (10) regular
season and/or postseason games (including the Pro Bowl, if selected). For
any subsequent violation (i.e., failure to comply with Treatment Plan; failure
to cooperate with testing, treatment, evaluation or other requirements
imposed by this Policy; or a Positive Test Result for any substance), the
Player shall be banished as set forth in Paragraph (b) above.

(d) Duration
A Player in Stage Three will remain in that stage for the remainder of his
NFL career. However, after 24 months in Stage Three, if the Player has not
had any additional positive tests, within a reasonable time period, the
Medical Director and Medical Advisor will assess the Player and decide
whether he will be discharged at that time. Such determination shall be
based on the Player’s compliance with the Program, clinical progress and
negative testing record. If the Player is not discharged, the Medical Director
and Medical Advisor will, after twelve (12) months, assess whether the
Player should be discharged at that time. After every such assessment, the
Medical Director and Medical Advisor shall notify the Player in writing of
their decision if they do not discharge the Player. Any decision to discharge
a Player from the Program early as set forth in this Section shall be within
the sole discretion of the Medical Director. Once a Player is discharged, he
will be afforded the same status as a Player who had never by Behavior or a
Positive Test been referred to the Intervention Program.


(e) Reinstatement
Criteria: After the completion of the one-year banishment period, the
Commissioner, in his sole discretion, will determine if and when the Player
will be allowed to return to the NFL. A Player’s failure to adhere to his
Treatment Plan during his banishment will be a significant consideration in
the Commissioner’s decision. A Player seeking reinstatement also must
meet certain clinical requirements as determined by the Medical Director
and other requirements as set forth in Appendix B.
Procedures after Reinstatement: If a Player is reinstated, he will be
returned to Stage Three for the remainder of his NFL career pursuant to (d)
above
and subject to continued testing and indefinite banishment. A Player
allowed to return to the NFL following banishment must participate in
continued treatment under this Intervention Program as required by the
Medical Director.

______________

Considering the fact that if Gordon had entered the league under the current NFL Subtance Abuse Policy, his 'positive' marijuana test would not be a positive and he would not be in Stage 3, I think it is at least possible the scenario in paragraph (d) becomes reality.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby Csl312 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:09 pm

I find it extremely unlikely that any player in stage three ever is discharged. It sounds like something put in to please the NFLPA with no intention of using it. I can't imagine a guy who is on the verge of a permanent ban will just be given a clean slate. It is strange to me that you basically get out of jail free rather than move down the stage lader back to 2, and 1 before you are discharged from the program.

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Re: Josh Gordon

Postby dm1129 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:39 pm

Csl312 wrote:I find it extremely unlikely that any player in stage three ever is discharged. It sounds like something put in to please the NFLPA with no intention of using it. I can't imagine a guy who is on the verge of a permanent ban will just be given a clean slate. It is strange to me that you basically get out of jail free rather than move down the stage lader back to 2, and 1 before you are discharged from the program.


It is important to keep in mind it is the Medical Director, not the Commissioner, that makes this decision. The difference between Stage 2 and Stage 3 is duration not in testing, so a move back to Stage 2 would be meaningless. When a player in Stage 2 has complied with the requirements of the progam, they are discharged from the program, not moved to Stage 1. Also, Gordon would not be in Stage 3 if he had entered the league under the current Sustance Abuse Program. For these reasons, I believe it is at least possible to happen.


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