Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

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Orenthal Shames
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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Orenthal Shames » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:05 am

Sriracha wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:42 pm
abloom wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:32 pm
Sriracha wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 2:01 pm

Arthur Smith is also responsible for 2 of the most efficient offenses in the past 2 decades with Ryan Tannehill at QB.

I really think he deserves the benefit of the doubt here and Pitts was likely over drafted.
Tannehill is a far better QB than Mariota and ridder
No doubt, my point is that Tannehill is a far cry from Mahomes or prime Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady etc and he still posted offenses with elite efficiency.

Odds are this Arthur Smith guy isn't some dumb bleep that is under utilizing his best players.
This is where I land. At the moment, Pitts seems to be a better athlete than football player. Jonnu Smith played more than he did.
16 team league
1 QB, 2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE, 2 Flex (RB/WR/TE)
26 upman rosters - full point ppr
2015, 17, 18, 19, 20 Champs

QB: Watson, Flacco Stidham
RB: Bijan, Gibbs, McLaughlin
WR: Olave, Addison, Flowers, Rice, Sutton, Downs, Mims, Tillman
TE: Kittle, Goedert, Chig, Woods
24 Picks: 1.06

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby ericanadian » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:34 am

Orenthal Shames wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:05 am
Sriracha wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:42 pm
abloom wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:32 pm

Tannehill is a far better QB than Mariota and ridder
No doubt, my point is that Tannehill is a far cry from Mahomes or prime Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady etc and he still posted offenses with elite efficiency.

Odds are this Arthur Smith guy isn't some dumb bleep that is under utilizing his best players.
This is where I land. At the moment, Pitts seems to be a better athlete than football player. Jonnu Smith played more than he did.
Snap count shows Pitts ahead by 2. What did you mean?
All I Der Is Win - 16 Team IDP League (Pass TD 6pts)

QB - Stafford, Stroud, Tune
RB - Swift, Hall, Penny, Bigsby, Ford
WR - Pittman, Olave, Di. Johnson, G. Wilson, J. Williams, Metchie, Robinson, M. Wilson
TE - Okonkwo, Schoonmaker
LB - Brooks, R. Smith, Phillips
DL - Crosby, Allen, Simmons
DB - D. James, Baker, Delpit
K - Just a stupid kicker

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Anteaters » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:47 am

ericanadian wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:34 am
Orenthal Shames wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:05 am This is where I land. At the moment, Pitts seems to be a better athlete than football player. Jonnu Smith played more than he did.
Snap count shows Pitts ahead by 2. What did you mean?
After further review, the decision is "close enough". No flag on the play.
TEAM 1:
12 Team ppr w/20 keepers - start 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1FLX 6IDP 1DEF
QB: Tua, Lamar, Levis
RB: Etienne, Pacheco, JavonteWms, JFord, CEH
WR: Lamb, JChase, Waddle, Pickens, MWilliams, Q Johnston
TE: Goedert, Friermuth
DEF: Cowboys, Ravens
IDP:(LB) Bolton, Greenlaw; (DE/DL) ZCollins, BJHill; (S/CB) Pitre, Bates, Witherspoon
2023 & 2022 Champion: 2020 third place: 2019 Champion

TEAM 2:
14 Team 30roster SF/ppr/TEP - QB/RB/WR/TE/5FLX/SF
QB: Tua, CJStroud, Carr, AOC, MWhite, Lock
RB: Etienne, Stevenson, GusE, AJD, Singletary, CEH, Spiller
WR: Amon-Ra, Kirk, Dell, Thielen, Gallup, Ch Jones
TE: Andrews, Waller, Taysom, Smythe, WMallory, JOliver
2023 semifinals loser

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby cazzie33 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:51 am

:dance: This the week :dance:

Lions safeties are banged up. LBs are going to have play the run first (and 2nd … and 3rd ) as a priority Plenty of room for Kyle the Kreator

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Jigga94 » Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:58 am

ericanadian wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:34 am
Orenthal Shames wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:05 am
Sriracha wrote: Mon Sep 18, 2023 3:42 pm

No doubt, my point is that Tannehill is a far cry from Mahomes or prime Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady etc and he still posted offenses with elite efficiency.

Odds are this Arthur Smith guy isn't some dumb bleep that is under utilizing his best players.
This is where I land. At the moment, Pitts seems to be a better athlete than football player. Jonnu Smith played more than he did.
Snap count shows Pitts ahead by 2. What did you mean?
Outproduced him for sure

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Orenthal Shames » Wed Sep 20, 2023 3:29 am

Anteaters wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:47 am
ericanadian wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:34 am
Orenthal Shames wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:05 am This is where I land. At the moment, Pitts seems to be a better athlete than football player. Jonnu Smith played more than he did.
Snap count shows Pitts ahead by 2. What did you mean?
After further review, the decision is "close enough". No flag on the play.
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16 team league
1 QB, 2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE, 2 Flex (RB/WR/TE)
26 upman rosters - full point ppr
2015, 17, 18, 19, 20 Champs

QB: Watson, Flacco Stidham
RB: Bijan, Gibbs, McLaughlin
WR: Olave, Addison, Flowers, Rice, Sutton, Downs, Mims, Tillman
TE: Kittle, Goedert, Chig, Woods
24 Picks: 1.06

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby frerichs5 » Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:49 am

frerichs5 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:41 am Falcons trading for Jonnu Smith. Bringing in some competition!
I thought I was joking at the time…..

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby killer_of_giants » Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:57 am

sooo... is he just tall and fast and with long arms?

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Shoreline Steamers » Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:26 am

Unfortunately, his career vibes are reading a little more Njoku, and a little less Kelce, Kittle, Andrews, etc...

Still hoping I'm wrong, and this will turn around at some point. Sure have been a lot of TE's who were supposed to be the "next big thing" only to disappoint.
14 Team, No-PPR, 20 Man Roster, TD Heavy, TD = 6, FG = 3, Start: QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, Flex, K, D
QB: L. Jackson, B. Purdy, T. Lance
RB: J. Mixon, N. Chubb, A. Dillon, J. Cook, K. Mitchell, J. McLaughlin, Z. Evans
WR: J. Chase, C. Godwin, D. Johnson, J. Reed, C. Tillman
TE: TJ Hockenson, D. Njoku, B. Jordan

14 Team, .5 PPR, 18 Man Roster, Rush/Rec TD = 6, Pass TD = 4, FG = 3, Start: QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, Flex, K, D
QB: L. Jackson, T. Tagovailoa
RB: B. Robinson, K. Walker, R. Stevenson, K. Herbertl
WR: C. Olave, T. Higgins, B. Aiyuk, N. Collins, Z. Flowers, M. Mims
TE: K. Pitts, D. Njoku

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Anteaters » Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:27 am

frerichs5 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:49 am
frerichs5 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:41 am Falcons trading for Jonnu Smith. Bringing in some competition!
I thought I was joking at the time…..
:lol: (not at you, but at the situation)

I find it funny that so many fantasy managers are trashing the coach for not designing a TE-friendly offense ... yet Jonnu has been very good this season, and if all the ATL TE stats are combined, the position is doing great.

Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coach or QB or system. Pitts is producing stats that fit his level of skill+readiness+whatever. There is not big crime going on here. Just the best players getting the proper amount of attention within the offense and producing stats commensurate with their abilities.
TEAM 1:
12 Team ppr w/20 keepers - start 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1FLX 6IDP 1DEF
QB: Tua, Lamar, Levis
RB: Etienne, Pacheco, JavonteWms, JFord, CEH
WR: Lamb, JChase, Waddle, Pickens, MWilliams, Q Johnston
TE: Goedert, Friermuth
DEF: Cowboys, Ravens
IDP:(LB) Bolton, Greenlaw; (DE/DL) ZCollins, BJHill; (S/CB) Pitre, Bates, Witherspoon
2023 & 2022 Champion: 2020 third place: 2019 Champion

TEAM 2:
14 Team 30roster SF/ppr/TEP - QB/RB/WR/TE/5FLX/SF
QB: Tua, CJStroud, Carr, AOC, MWhite, Lock
RB: Etienne, Stevenson, GusE, AJD, Singletary, CEH, Spiller
WR: Amon-Ra, Kirk, Dell, Thielen, Gallup, Ch Jones
TE: Andrews, Waller, Taysom, Smythe, WMallory, JOliver
2023 semifinals loser

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby jenkins.math » Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:46 am

Anteaters wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:27 am
frerichs5 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:49 am
frerichs5 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:41 am Falcons trading for Jonnu Smith. Bringing in some competition!
I thought I was joking at the time…..
:lol: (not at you, but at the situation)

I find it funny that so many fantasy managers are trashing the coach for not designing a TE-friendly offense ... yet Jonnu has been very good this season, and if all the ATL TE stats are combined, the position is doing great.

Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coach or QB or system. Pitts is producing stats that fit his level of skill+readiness+whatever. There is not big crime going on here. Just the best players getting the proper amount of attention within the offense and producing stats commensurate with their abilities.
So do you feel like that is what is happening with their RB rotation?

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:24 am

Anteaters wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:27 am
frerichs5 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:49 am
frerichs5 wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 8:41 am Falcons trading for Jonnu Smith. Bringing in some competition!
I thought I was joking at the time…..
:lol: (not at you, but at the situation)

I find it funny that so many fantasy managers are trashing the coach for not designing a TE-friendly offense ... yet Jonnu has been very good this season, and if all the ATL TE stats are combined, the position is doing great.

Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coach or QB or system. Pitts is producing stats that fit his level of skill+readiness+whatever. There is not big crime going on here. Just the best players getting the proper amount of attention within the offense and producing stats commensurate with their abilities.
Because Pitts and Smith are used completely different in the offense. Smith runs a lot of safer routes in the progression and defenses are not keyed in on him. Pitts is largely clearing out the offense downfield and defenses pay attention to where he's going. Falcons QBs are not connecting with Pitts on those routes, so players like Smith benefit because it's more high percentage and less risk involved.

The Falcons offense this season has been all about managing risk. Ridder doesn't take risks and Arthur Smith rarely puts him in position to take risks. Heinecke is a more capable passer, but they don't want him doing a whole lot either.

Look, there's a decent chance Pitts never lives up to his draft pedigree. We knew this. It's a part of why taking a TE with the #4 pick in a draft is insane. Great for fantasy, but awful for real football. The Falcons have drafted 3 great skill position talents in the Top 10, but don't have a QB worth a damn to maximize it.

I think this low production is less about Pitts and more about everything else. It's not even close to an optimal situation to succeed. The fact that Bijan is now experiencing the same thing should tell you that.

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby Anteaters » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:15 am

jenkins.math wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:46 am
Anteaters wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:27 am
frerichs5 wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:49 am

I thought I was joking at the time…..
:lol: (not at you, but at the situation)

I find it funny that so many fantasy managers are trashing the coach for not designing a TE-friendly offense ... yet Jonnu has been very good this season, and if all the ATL TE stats are combined, the position is doing great.

Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coach or QB or system. Pitts is producing stats that fit his level of skill+readiness+whatever. There is not big crime going on here. Just the best players getting the proper amount of attention within the offense and producing stats commensurate with their abilities.
So do you feel like that is what is happening with their RB rotation?
I do. To the extent that a player's abilities are not in a vacuum. Every player's ability is most useful only to the degree it fits within the team overall. The overall team plan for Smith calls for multiple RBs with different specialties. Fantasy may hate there is no bell cow. Fantasy may cry angry little tantrums when a player deemed as special isn't treated special by the coach or gameplan.

On the other hand, what good has it done the Giants to make a RB the extreme focal point of its offense? How many playoff games have the Raiders won since giving a RB 24+ touches every single week? Sometimes a stud RB helps a team in fantasy and real football -- sometimes stud RBs don't do anything to help real life football teams win. Smart NFL coaches/GMs don't remain committed to a strategy that does not consistently produce wins. Over his career, Arthur Smith has proven to be a smart coach.

I'm a fantasy guy for about 35 years. I GET IT! We like bellcow RBs. All I'm saying is when a player doesn't get the sort of touch share that would make us giddy, it is not always a sign the coach is incompetent. And when the coach is running a game plan and winning games, it's even harder to make a strong case he is incompetent.

What fantasy managers should do is assess the complete picture (talent+situation) and be willing to change opinions on the fly. It doesn't help a fantasy team for a fantasy manager to get fixated on a specific predicted outcome. Once we have enough evidence the outcome might not reach the prediction, we need to move quickly and take advantage of others who aren't so quick to change their premature opinions.
TEAM 1:
12 Team ppr w/20 keepers - start 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1FLX 6IDP 1DEF
QB: Tua, Lamar, Levis
RB: Etienne, Pacheco, JavonteWms, JFord, CEH
WR: Lamb, JChase, Waddle, Pickens, MWilliams, Q Johnston
TE: Goedert, Friermuth
DEF: Cowboys, Ravens
IDP:(LB) Bolton, Greenlaw; (DE/DL) ZCollins, BJHill; (S/CB) Pitre, Bates, Witherspoon
2023 & 2022 Champion: 2020 third place: 2019 Champion

TEAM 2:
14 Team 30roster SF/ppr/TEP - QB/RB/WR/TE/5FLX/SF
QB: Tua, CJStroud, Carr, AOC, MWhite, Lock
RB: Etienne, Stevenson, GusE, AJD, Singletary, CEH, Spiller
WR: Amon-Ra, Kirk, Dell, Thielen, Gallup, Ch Jones
TE: Andrews, Waller, Taysom, Smythe, WMallory, JOliver
2023 semifinals loser

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby wickerkat1212 » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:18 am

I'm all in on Bijan but I don't like how he's being used.
D3:
QB—Allen, Pickett RB—Kamara, Jacobs, ZWhite, Edwards, Ford, Warren WR—Lamb, Olave, DJM, Puka, Tillman, Marshall, Jefferson, Robinson, Tucker TE—Ferguson, Schoon, Likely, Smith, Washington, Kraft PK—Prater DEF—BAL

D4:
QB—TLaw, JimmyG, Tannehill, AOC, Hall RB—Bijan, Kamara, Conner, Gainwell, Gainwell, Foreman, ZMoss, Chandler, McLaughlin, Murray WR—Jefferson, Hill, Adams, Allen, Tillman, Woods TE—Kelce, Kmet, Conklin PK—Butker DEF—PIT

Superflex 1:
QB—Mahomes, Rodgers, Mayfield RB—Bijan, Kamara, Allgeier, Singletary, Mostert, BRob, Warren, Rodriguez, Spiller WR—Chase, DJM, Devonta, MBrown, Myers, Reynold, Jones TE—Kmet, Likely, Kraft, Conklin, Hurst, Hudson PK—Elliott DEF—PHI

Superflex 2:
QB: Goff, Cousins, Wentz, White; RB: Bijan, BRob, ZWhite, Allgeier, McLaughlin WR: DJM, Higgins, JSN, Downs, RMoore, Atwell, SMoore, PCampbell, DPJ, ATP, Hutchinson, Iosivas, Devante, CJones TE: Ferguson, Kraft, Trautman, Tremble

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Re: Unpopular Opinion: You will waste your premium 1st round pick on Kyle Pitts.

Postby jenkins.math » Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:53 am

Anteaters wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 11:15 am
jenkins.math wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:46 am
Anteaters wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:27 am
:lol: (not at you, but at the situation)

I find it funny that so many fantasy managers are trashing the coach for not designing a TE-friendly offense ... yet Jonnu has been very good this season, and if all the ATL TE stats are combined, the position is doing great.

Maybe it's time to admit it's not the coach or QB or system. Pitts is producing stats that fit his level of skill+readiness+whatever. There is not big crime going on here. Just the best players getting the proper amount of attention within the offense and producing stats commensurate with their abilities.
So do you feel like that is what is happening with their RB rotation?
I do. To the extent that a player's abilities are not in a vacuum. Every player's ability is most useful only to the degree it fits within the team overall. The overall team plan for Smith calls for multiple RBs with different specialties. Fantasy may hate there is no bell cow. Fantasy may cry angry little tantrums when a player deemed as special isn't treated special by the coach or gameplan.

On the other hand, what good has it done the Giants to make a RB the extreme focal point of its offense? How many playoff games have the Raiders won since giving a RB 24+ touches every single week? Sometimes a stud RB helps a team in fantasy and real football -- sometimes stud RBs don't do anything to help real life football teams win. Smart NFL coaches/GMs don't remain committed to a strategy that does not consistently produce wins. Over his career, Arthur Smith has proven to be a smart coach.

I'm a fantasy guy for about 35 years. I GET IT! We like bellcow RBs. All I'm saying is when a player doesn't get the sort of touch share that would make us giddy, it is not always a sign the coach is incompetent. And when the coach is running a game plan and winning games, it's even harder to make a strong case he is incompetent.

What fantasy managers should do is assess the complete picture (talent+situation) and be willing to change opinions on the fly. It doesn't help a fantasy team for a fantasy manager to get fixated on a specific predicted outcome. Once we have enough evidence the outcome might not reach the prediction, we need to move quickly and take advantage of others who aren't so quick to change their premature opinions.
Not to dismiss any of this, but as it pertains to Bijan vs Allgeier, there isn't a metric to explain why they are even close in touches. Bijan is averaging almost 2 yards per carry more than Allgeier when they are within 10 carries of one another. Now I haven't checked if Allgeier is getting 90% of the short yardage work which would help explain the difference, so if you have that data please feel free to share.

Otherwise it just seems like a guy sticking to his system and not utilizing his best players, which plenty of "smart" coaches have done over the years to their own detriment. Honestly what is going on with the offense reminds me of Matt Nagy in Chicago in that he just seems to want to outsmart people every time and gets too cute when it isn't necessary.

Even ignoring the stats and going on the eye test you can see that there is a talent difference between the two. Wouldn't getting your best players more opportunities make the most sense? How much worse would the Giants and Raiders be if they split carries evenly with their RBs? Surely you don't think they would be better?

If you are trying to have a philosophical debate on the value of a RB then I actually agree with you. I wouldn't spend up on a RB at all in today's climate and I sure wouldn't draft one in the top 10 when my team isn't very good. Especially when you have a system that got enough out of the run game last season. However, if you are going to invest high draft capital in that position then you are foolish not to use him. That is horrible asset management at an organizational level. Unless that pick turns out to be a bust or worse player than you expected. There isn't anything to suggest that Bijan has been a disappointment on the field. Off the field or behind the scenes? Maybe, but there isn't any rumor to that effect. Are they concerned Bijan can't handle the entire role? Again, no evidence of that but it is plausible I guess. If it isn't any of those things then what is it?

As far as Arthur Smith being a smart coach; I'm a Titans fan and super familiar with him. His offenses were great when he had a top 3 offensive line, AJ Brown, and a prime Derrick Henry (who he used as a bellcow btw because he was the best player). Giving any decent QB and OC those elite weapons will make them pretty good. It doesn't take a genius to go "well I have arguably the best run blocking line in football and the largest RB so maybe I should just keep running it while mixing in some downfield shots to my elite WR". A lot of OCs are going to look really good with those circumstances. You don't see guys in the NFL making chicken salad out of chicken poo consistently. You can give him credit for maximizing that offense, but let's not act like he didn't have anything to work with here.

Frankly all of these guys know football and wouldn't have made it as far as they had without having some levels of success. But everyone gets promoted to their level of incompetence.


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