Tanking?

[jman3134]

Sorry, I was unclear.

[Cameron Giles]

Regardless of what PPG say, if Tonyan has outscored Smith in half the games played, there absolutely is an argument for starting him in my opinion. He has proven he can score more points. And it’s not like he only did it once. Not saying I could do it, but stats don’t lie and you’d have been better off starting Tonyan half the time. That’s all that matters.

Multiple things can be true here:

1. Benching Devonta Smith to start Robert Tonyan is an unserious and non-competitive move. Chances are you can find a better FLEX play than a TE who's scoring at WR85 on the season. If I was so determined to start the TE19 on the season, it wouldn't be at the expense of a near Top-24 WR in an elite offense.

2. If other players in this league are doing something similar, then the rules are unsatisfactory and/or aren't being enforced consistently.

Just sounds like a bad situation all around. Like I said earlier about the original Bell/Marshall question: People do this in every league. Tanking is a credible way to build a contender and in a year where a player like Bijan Robinson is the prize, do we really expect that owners aren't doing everything they possibly can to secure him?

[jman3134]

Regardless of what PPG say, if Tonyan has outscored Smith in half the games played, there absolutely is an argument for starting him in my opinion. He has proven he can score more points. And it’s not like he only did it once. Not saying I could do it, but stats don’t lie and you’d have been better off starting Tonyan half the time. That’s all that matters.

Multiple things can be true here:

1. Benching Devonta Smith to start Robert Tonyan is an unserious and non-competitive move. Chances are you can find a better FLEX play than a TE who's scoring at WR85 on the season. If I was so determined to start the TE19 on the season, it wouldn't be at the expense of a near Top-24 WR in an elite offense.

2. If other players in this league are doing something similar, then the rules are unsatisfactory and/or aren't being enforced consistently.

Just sounds like a bad situation all around. Like I said earlier about the original Bell/Marshall question: People do this in every league. Tanking is a credible way to build a contender and in a year where a player like Bijan Robinson is the prize, do we really expect that owners aren't doing everything they possibly can to secure him?

My question then is where do you draw a line? If you are playing 2nd round picks and 3rd round picks from your rookie draft, go right ahead. If they are wr3/4 on a given team and have 4+ years in the league, isn't this truly tanking? Especially when there is a starter on waivers or premium backup, you are choosing to play someone who you know will never get in the game. I am wondering to what extent this happens elsewhere because honestly it is my first time being exposed to it? The DLF league I joined has 16 teams, so some of the starting decisions are more understandable. In my own leagues, we don't police lineups to this degree and when someone subs out a top 20 WR/RB for a bonafide scrub, I simply tell them you can't do that.

These thoughts have all been helpful to understand how others think about this, and what problems are arising etc.

[zaner75]

What I want to understand moreso is to question the paradigm of "tanking" as it exists. If you trade away every possibly good player, this isn't a "rebuild", this is tanking. It means that teams have a near auto win barring injuries. It disrupts competitive balance. If you are picking up a bottom 3 def like the Raiders right after Martinez retires, it is clear you are tanking. Picking up the worst possible def and qb option (Rypien) off waivers isn't a "smart" move, it is anticompetitive. The spirit of tanking laws is to enforce that there is not an anticompetitive dynamic. Trading away all your good players to the best teams to get the top picks does this in a nutshell and causes far more damage to a league than a Tonyan over Smith start. That isn't me deflecting, because I could very well have been wrong starting Tonyan, but I think that this race to the bottom is far more damaging for league integrity.

I am in agreement with this, particularly the bolded items. These teams that sell off all usable players set themselves up as multi-year rebuilders. When there are multiple teams in a league doing so, they create tiers of super-teams vs stuck-in-the-middles vs bottom-dwellers.
The stuck-in-the-middle teams then have to decide to try to join the super-teams, but are at a disadvantage because the super-teams have taken first dibs on much of the elite talent, or join the bottom-dwellers and make the gap between tiers even more pronounced.
When/if a bottom-dweller orphans, that orphan becomes very difficult to fill and could then lead to the end of a league. The super-teams don't want it to happen but many people likely aren't looking at taking over an orphan and being a donator for several years.

As far as the league in question with the draft pick (2.01) being taken away, with the information provided about other teams making dubious lineup decisions and the powers-that-be being alerted but seemingly allowing that to slide, I agree with the commenter that said the league seems a boy's club and that the person getting docked the pick is on the outside. But, looking at it as a trade, 1.02 + 2.01 for 1.01 this season is a smash-accept.

Potential points is an easy fix to prevent blatant or subtle lineup tanking but leads to the slippery slope bolded above. Just like with the trade market, every league is its own entity. The best solution, imo, is to have a good group of managers and having open debate and clarity beforehand on any potentially sticky issues.

[Kcarr]

I am not saying tonyan over Smith is a close call or a call I would make at all, and I haven't had to as I sold all my tonyan shares over a year ago, but I am saying that I have a tough time seeing it as egregious enough to penalize someone by removing picks when at that point in the season 5 times tonyan had been the higher scoring player and 6 times Smith had

Think about it like this.

Tonyan is averaging 6.8 PPG in 13 games this season. He is the TE19 on the season. For all intents and purposes, unless you play in a TE Premium league, a player who is a low-end TE2 is not really fantasy relevant. It's a desperation dart throw in the dark.

For comparison, here are the WR equivalent who are averaging around 6.8 PPG and have played in 13 games this season:

- Ben Skowranek (WR85)
- Olamide Zaccheus (WR78)
- DeMarcus Robinson (WR79)
- K.J. Osborn (WR84)

*Based on PPG of players who have played at least 7 games this season.

If someone benched DeVonta Smith (WR26) for any of the above players, would you think that they are in any way serious about winning a game? Because I wouldn't.

Granted, maybe there's more information we're missing here, but benching a WR26 for a player that's close to WR90 seems like pretty obvious point shaving.

The same argument would have pretty much fit in week 4 or 6 or 8 or 9. Would you support docking the pick if someone started tonyan over it just one of those weeks? Again, in no way involved in this league and certainly not advocating starting tonyan over Smith, just saying I tend to lean towards freedom of owners to set their lineups. Also, I am with those suggesting potential points for pick slotting to avoid tanking as I do think tanking hurts leagues, I just think any time you are subjectively taking picks away based on whether you support an actively made decision of an owner setting a legal lineup I think that is setting a worse precedent

[BabyChark23]

I am not saying tonyan over Smith is a close call or a call I would make at all, and I haven't had to as I sold all my tonyan shares over a year ago, but I am saying that I have a tough time seeing it as egregious enough to penalize someone by removing picks when at that point in the season 5 times tonyan had been the higher scoring player and 6 times Smith had

Think about it like this.

Tonyan is averaging 6.8 PPG in 13 games this season. He is the TE19 on the season. For all intents and purposes, unless you play in a TE Premium league, a player who is a low-end TE2 is not really fantasy relevant. It's a desperation dart throw in the dark.

For comparison, here are the WR equivalent who are averaging around 6.8 PPG and have played in 13 games this season:

- Ben Skowranek (WR85)
- Olamide Zaccheus (WR78)
- DeMarcus Robinson (WR79)
- K.J. Osborn (WR84)

*Based on PPG of players who have played at least 7 games this season.

If someone benched DeVonta Smith (WR26) for any of the above players, would you think that they are in any way serious about winning a game? Because I wouldn't.

Granted, maybe there's more information we're missing here, but benching a WR26 for a player that's close to WR90 seems like pretty obvious point shaving.

The same argument would have pretty much fit in week 4 or 6 or 8 or 9. Would you support docking the pick if someone started tonyan over it just one of those weeks? Again, in no way involved in this league and certainly not advocating starting tonyan over Smith, just saying I tend to lean towards freedom of owners to set their lineups. Also, I am with those suggesting potential points for pick slotting to avoid tanking as I do think tanking hurts leagues, I just think any time you are subjectively taking picks away based on whether you support an actively made decision of an owner setting a legal lineup I think that is setting a worse precedent

I agree with this. I have had draft picks whose value was diminished by others tanking before, but turning a game into a totalitarian system where you must slavishly set your lineup within the parameters dictated by industry rankings sounds even worse to me. Why do we even bother to have managers at that point? All leagues might as well just convert to bestball.

[Cameron Giles]

I am not saying tonyan over Smith is a close call or a call I would make at all, and I haven't had to as I sold all my tonyan shares over a year ago, but I am saying that I have a tough time seeing it as egregious enough to penalize someone by removing picks when at that point in the season 5 times tonyan had been the higher scoring player and 6 times Smith had

Think about it like this.

Tonyan is averaging 6.8 PPG in 13 games this season. He is the TE19 on the season. For all intents and purposes, unless you play in a TE Premium league, a player who is a low-end TE2 is not really fantasy relevant. It's a desperation dart throw in the dark.

For comparison, here are the WR equivalent who are averaging around 6.8 PPG and have played in 13 games this season:

- Ben Skowranek (WR85)
- Olamide Zaccheus (WR78)
- DeMarcus Robinson (WR79)
- K.J. Osborn (WR84)

*Based on PPG of players who have played at least 7 games this season.

If someone benched DeVonta Smith (WR26) for any of the above players, would you think that they are in any way serious about winning a game? Because I wouldn't.

Granted, maybe there's more information we're missing here, but benching a WR26 for a player that's close to WR90 seems like pretty obvious point shaving.

The same argument would have pretty much fit in week 4 or 6 or 8 or 9. Would you support docking the pick if someone started tonyan over it just one of those weeks? Again, in no way involved in this league and certainly not advocating starting tonyan over Smith, just saying I tend to lean towards freedom of owners to set their lineups. Also, I am with those suggesting potential points for pick slotting to avoid tanking as I do think tanking hurts leagues, I just think any time you are subjectively taking picks away based on whether you support an actively made decision of an owner setting a legal lineup I think that is setting a worse precedent

What's stopping someone from benching their best players every week to start players who are very clearly and likely to score less points? Sure that's a choice, but how is it a choice that someone who has any desire to be serious would make? How does that help the quality of a league? I think that is a dishonest way of playing and detrimental to a league. It's even more problematic if you're playing in a very high stakes league.

If your plan is to nosedive, why didn't you sell or why aren't you selling and letting it happen organically? If you have to start/sit your way to get the 1.01 by removing Top-24 WRs for Top 85 FLEX plays, then you are purely manipulating it to get that result. You didn't build your team to just trend that way on its own.

I don't think the above simplifies to "freedom to set your lineups". Because, everyone knows what a lineup looks like when you are playing a game that you think you can win.

Like I said, multiple things can be true here:

1. Bad rules can exist and be enforced inconsistently.
2. People knowingly do dumb things to skirt league rules and secure an elite RB with the 1.01.

One of the posters above nailed it. If it's a situation of:

A. Secure the 1.01 and lose a 2nd round pick
B. Secure the 1.02 presumably and keep a 2nd round pick

Everyone is taking A.

[SteveMaddensShoes]

Think about it like this.

Tonyan is averaging 6.8 PPG in 13 games this season. He is the TE19 on the season. For all intents and purposes, unless you play in a TE Premium league, a player who is a low-end TE2 is not really fantasy relevant. It's a desperation dart throw in the dark.

For comparison, here are the WR equivalent who are averaging around 6.8 PPG and have played in 13 games this season:

- Ben Skowranek (WR85)
- Olamide Zaccheus (WR78)
- DeMarcus Robinson (WR79)
- K.J. Osborn (WR84)

*Based on PPG of players who have played at least 7 games this season.

If someone benched DeVonta Smith (WR26) for any of the above players, would you think that they are in any way serious about winning a game? Because I wouldn't.

Granted, maybe there's more information we're missing here, but benching a WR26 for a player that's close to WR90 seems like pretty obvious point shaving.

The same argument would have pretty much fit in week 4 or 6 or 8 or 9. Would you support docking the pick if someone started tonyan over it just one of those weeks? Again, in no way involved in this league and certainly not advocating starting tonyan over Smith, just saying I tend to lean towards freedom of owners to set their lineups. Also, I am with those suggesting potential points for pick slotting to avoid tanking as I do think tanking hurts leagues, I just think any time you are subjectively taking picks away based on whether you support an actively made decision of an owner setting a legal lineup I think that is setting a worse precedent

What's stopping someone from benching their best players every week to start players who are very clearly and likely to score less points? Sure that's a choice, but how is it a choice that someone who has any desire to be serious would make? How does that help the quality of a league? I think that is a dishonest way of playing and detrimental to a league. It's even more problematic if you're playing in a very high stakes league.

If your plan is to nosedive, why didn't you sell or why aren't you selling and letting it happen organically? If you have to start/sit your way to get the 1.01 by removing Top-24 WRs for Top 85 FLEX plays, then you are purely manipulating it to get that result. You didn't build your team to just trend that way on its own.

I don't think the above simplifies to "freedom to set your lineups". Because, everyone knows what a lineup looks like when you are playing a game that you think you can win.

I agree.

Maybe a solution to lineups would be to use fantasypros once you start ethically tanking. No debating or arguing. Just set the lineup based off fantasypros rankings and call it good. Everyone playing by the same rules that way and no arguing over Tonyan vs Smith. Seems like an objectively good system for teams rebuilding. Only thing subjective is when are they required to use the rankings and that is a problem I don’t have an immediate answer for

[Cameron Giles]

The same argument would have pretty much fit in week 4 or 6 or 8 or 9. Would you support docking the pick if someone started tonyan over it just one of those weeks? Again, in no way involved in this league and certainly not advocating starting tonyan over Smith, just saying I tend to lean towards freedom of owners to set their lineups. Also, I am with those suggesting potential points for pick slotting to avoid tanking as I do think tanking hurts leagues, I just think any time you are subjectively taking picks away based on whether you support an actively made decision of an owner setting a legal lineup I think that is setting a worse precedent

What's stopping someone from benching their best players every week to start players who are very clearly and likely to score less points? Sure that's a choice, but how is it a choice that someone who has any desire to be serious would make? How does that help the quality of a league? I think that is a dishonest way of playing and detrimental to a league. It's even more problematic if you're playing in a very high stakes league.

If your plan is to nosedive, why didn't you sell or why aren't you selling and letting it happen organically? If you have to start/sit your way to get the 1.01 by removing Top-24 WRs for Top 85 FLEX plays, then you are purely manipulating it to get that result. You didn't build your team to just trend that way on its own.

I don't think the above simplifies to "freedom to set your lineups". Because, everyone knows what a lineup looks like when you are playing a game that you think you can win.

I agree.

Maybe a solution to lineups would be to use fantasypros once you start ethically tanking. No debating or arguing. Just set the lineup based off fantasypros rankings and call it good. Everyone playing by the same rules that way and no arguing over Tonyan vs Smith. Seems like an objectively good system for teams rebuilding. Only thing subjective is when are they required to use the rankings and that is a problem I don’t have an immediate answer for

I don't know if that's a great solution, but outside of using potential points or a lottery system, it will always get weird.

I just think that if you go into the season knowing that you want the 1.01 or a high draft pick, then you should build your team to get that result. It shouldn't be a situation of figuring out which of your best players you need to bench each week to lose.

[SteveMaddensShoes]

What's stopping someone from benching their best players every week to start players who are very clearly and likely to score less points? Sure that's a choice, but how is it a choice that someone who has any desire to be serious would make? How does that help the quality of a league? I think that is a dishonest way of playing and detrimental to a league. It's even more problematic if you're playing in a very high stakes league.

If your plan is to nosedive, why didn't you sell or why aren't you selling and letting it happen organically? If you have to start/sit your way to get the 1.01 by removing Top-24 WRs for Top 85 FLEX plays, then you are purely manipulating it to get that result. You didn't build your team to just trend that way on its own.

I don't think the above simplifies to "freedom to set your lineups". Because, everyone knows what a lineup looks like when you are playing a game that you think you can win.

I agree.

Maybe a solution to lineups would be to use fantasypros once you start ethically tanking. No debating or arguing. Just set the lineup based off fantasypros rankings and call it good. Everyone playing by the same rules that way and no arguing over Tonyan vs Smith. Seems like an objectively good system for teams rebuilding. Only thing subjective is when are they required to use the rankings and that is a problem I don’t have an immediate answer for

I don't know if that's a great solution, but outside of using potential points or a lottery system, it will always get weird.

I just think that if you go into the season knowing that you want the 1.01 or a high draft pick, then you should build your team to get that result. It shouldn't be a situation of figuring out which of your best players you need to bench each week to lose.

You are right. It’s just incredible how hard it is to get people to play with integrity. Kind of sad.

[Tvols]

Is Devonta Smith a must start stud?

No, he's the #21 WR, there's more volatility than I would like out of a "must start"

Well, I am being docked a 2nd round pick for not starting him.

why are you still in the league then? Especially if league is playing favorites. Why if you are tanking this bad has said league not removed you from ownership especially if its a pattern? This all falls to league not already have solved the tanking problem by not being PP anyways. Seems this one is slow to adjust. Sounds like some in the league are jealous over the 1-01, let owners manage there teams otherwise just play better ball..

[jman3134]

No, he's the #21 WR, there's more volatility than I would like out of a "must start"

Well, I am being docked a 2nd round pick for not starting him.

why are you still in the league then? Especially if league is playing favorites. Why if you are tanking this bad has said league not removed you from ownership especially if its a pattern? This all falls to league not already have solved the tanking problem by not being PP anyways. Seems this one is slow to adjust. Sounds like some in the league are jealous over the 1-01, let owners manage there teams otherwise just play better ball..

I likely should have just quit, but at this point I just want to make my money back. Because I was not "tanking this bad." I started off the season acquiring CPatt. I just had a ton of injuries and the highest points against. I lost two games by less than 1 pt. Obviously, this angered some people.

If I am 100% honest, I spent less than 1 min setting this lineup. I was told that 2 TEs are a viable nontanking lineup (not just any 2 tight ends, but the two I had in there) and within my jurisdiction (because I was given the example of them being ok two weeks prior when I asked "what is tanking if Hines is acceptable?"). So I wasn't considering Devonta Smith or Tonyan. I was thinking ok I am going to start 2 TEs (because they are higher boom bust) and look at the receivers who scored the highest the prior week and just play them this coming week. I didn't like Smith in my other leagues so I left him out. It was rather simple, but it was blown way out of proportion in my opinion. This wasn't the work of a point shaving criminal mastermind .

What I am gathering is that people still think that what I did was wrong from a sanctity of the league perspective. So when it comes to outside leagues, I have to do better or at least ask the commissioners if what I am doing is within my liberties to set if it isn't an optimal projected points lineup. I have never run into this level of lineup scrutiny before, but that may be the standard in some outside leagues. Looking directly at the paradigm Smith vs Tonyan in a vacuum, I'd pick Smith. But, again this is hindsight.