Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

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Prison_Mike
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Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Prison_Mike » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:05 pm

Team 2 in my signature is currently voting on whether we should remove Kickers and Team Defenses and replace them with flex spot(s)
(If I remember correctly, they voted on this last off-season as well, and it was voted to keep them)

What are your thoughts on such a rule change? Does it need to be a year in advance?

I personally am indifferent; I think these positions are too random and kind of dumb to have in a dynasty league, but these are my concerns:

A) Some teams (including myself) would be at a distinct advantage because they have more depth than others. The person who is pushing for the rule change would also benefit greatly, and obviously knows this.

B) Perhaps minor, but this would have changed how owners managed their teams. Perhaps they would have drafted a positional player there in the startup draft who could've been a mid-late round hit?

C) Case in point, 1 or 2 teams have traded 2021 picks (albeit ill-advised) for Team Defenses. Did they just give that pick away for nothing now that there's a rule change?

I'm sure some of you have dealt with these kind of changes, I'd love to hear your opinions on the best way to handle it
Team 1:
12-team | PPR | SuperFlex | 0.5-TEP
Start: 1QB/2RB/2WR/1TE/3FLX/1SF
QB: Herbert, Kyler, Baker, Jimmy G, Mariota, DTR
RB: Taylor, Saquon, Javonte, Conner, C.Evans, TDP
WR: Chase, Diggs, Olave, Aiyuk, Hollywood, MT, Shaheed
TE: Engram, Woods, Kraft
'24 picks: 1st, 3rd, 4th

Team 2:
12-Team | PPR | SuperFlex | 0.5-TEP
(Start: QB/2RB/2WR/1TE/3FLX/1SF)
QB: Mahomes, Allen, Russ
RB: Breece, JT, Swift, Javonte, Mostert
WR: Chase, Kupp, Aiyuk, Nico, Hollywood, Kirk, MT
TE: Pitts, Njoku, Woods
'24 picks: none

Team 3:
12tm PPR SuperFlex
QB: Hurts, Dak, Stafford, Z.Wilson, DTR
RB: Saquon, Swift, Achane, Kamara, Ford
WR: Jefferson, AJB, ARSB, Nico, Diontae, OBJ
TE: Goedert, Njoku, Fant, Woods
'24 picks: 4th, 4th

CGW
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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby CGW » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:27 pm

First, I love the idea of getting rid of K+D. It's a random crapshoot that completely muddies seasonal results.

Second, you are right about it being a bit of an issue for teams who just traded away picks to land defenses. I think you need more warning than just an offseason change, or some sort of compensatory pick. Ie, they traded a 3rd for a def so they get back a pick after the 3rd round.

Third, it's not unfair for teams to have depth. That is smart dynasty ownership and no1 is prohibited from being smart. Whether there are K+D or not, this should be irrelevant.

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Prison_Mike
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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Prison_Mike » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:35 pm

CGW wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:27 pm First, I love the idea of getting rid of K+D. It's a random crapshoot that completely muddies seasonal results.

Second, you are right about it being a bit of an issue for teams who just traded away picks to land defenses. I think you need more warning than just an offseason change, or some sort of compensatory pick. Ie, they traded a 3rd for a def so they get back a pick after the 3rd round.

Third, it's not unfair for teams to have depth. That is smart dynasty ownership and no1 is prohibited from being smart. Whether there are K+D or not, this should be irrelevant.
Sure, I'm certainly not arguing that. I simply meant that from a roster construction standpoint: One might consider trades differently if they'd known they had an additional flex spot to fill.

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby honcho55 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:38 pm

Removing kickers and team defense is fine to just happen in an offseason, imo.

Adding more flex is the issue. Answers to this might range a bit. If I wanted to make this change in a league I commish, I’d do this: announce the intent to add a flex or two, and put it to vote. I like to get a 2/3rds majority for stuff like this. If it’s closer to 50/50 you can run into problems with changes.
main league, half PPR, all TDs 6, -3 for INT
12 team. 2019 champ, 2020 runner up, ‘21 3rd
start 2SF, 2RB, 2WR, 1TE, 2WRT

QB: T Lawrence, K Cousins, R Wilson, Z Wilson
RB: K Walker, T Ettiene, JK Dobbins, D Gore, J Hasty, D Johnson, L Rountree
WR: JJ, AJB, A Cooper, Juju, C Kirk, J Dotson, N Westbrook-Ikhine, I McKenzie
TE. T Kelce, Pitts, Albert O, D Parham, J O’Shaunessy

1.03, 1.11, 2.02, 2.09
Extra 24 1st

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Pac_Eddy
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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Pac_Eddy » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:53 pm

For me, there is some strategy to kickers & defenses. I understand why people are eliminating them, but it's not completely random.

As for adding a flex starting position, that's a huge change, so you better have full agreement from owners one way or another. One team's strategy may be to max out the starters by sacrificing depth. Adding more starters would change how they had built their roster.
Not all that counts can be counted. Not all that can be counted counts.

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Prison_Mike
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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Prison_Mike » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:59 pm

Pac_Eddy wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:53 pm For me, there is some strategy to kickers & defenses. I understand why people are eliminating them, but it's not completely random.

As for adding a flex starting position, that's a huge change, so you better have full agreement from owners one way or another. One team's strategy may be to max out the starters by sacrificing depth. Adding more starters would change how they had built their roster.
That's the point I was trying to make. An extra flex spot (or two) could completely change the makeup of one's roster or the approach they took to building it. As of now, we have 5 votes: 3 in favor of eliminating them, 2 in favor of keeping them

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Pac_Eddy
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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Pac_Eddy » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:01 pm

Prison_Mike wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:59 pm
Pac_Eddy wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:53 pm For me, there is some strategy to kickers & defenses. I understand why people are eliminating them, but it's not completely random.

As for adding a flex starting position, that's a huge change, so you better have full agreement from owners one way or another. One team's strategy may be to max out the starters by sacrificing depth. Adding more starters would change how they had built their roster.
That's the point I was trying to make. An extra flex spot (or two) could completely change the makeup of one's roster or the approach they took to building it. As of now, we have 5 votes: 3 in favor of eliminating them, 2 in favor of keeping them
Even if 11 of 12 owners want to make a change, that last owner has a legitimate reason to be upset. So find a way to get 100% buy in or prepare to have one pissed off person.
Not all that counts can be counted. Not all that can be counted counts.

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Paul717 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:07 pm

Personally I think these changes should have a long runway. Meaning, if my league was voting on these changes now in Jan 2021, I'd want them to apply starting in the 2022 NFL season. That gives teams a whole draft and 2 whole off-seasons to adjust accordingly. As much as I'd roll my eyes if someone in my 16 team league drafted a third or FOURTH DST, its unfair to them to have to adjust so quickly. Just my 2 cents.

Also, the OCD part of me would recommend somehow taking a snapshot of league records before adding flex spots. I.E. most points scored in a year record - archived and noted before such a change. Because flex spots will likely make the eras incomparable. Or whatever, lol, again that's my OCD.
"Marathon Square" - 16 team full PPR league with 24 player roster. Keep 16 per year indefinitely, draft 8. Start 1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 K, 1 Team DST
QB: Jordan Love, Deshaun Watson
RB: Travis Etienne, Aaron Jones, Jamaal Williams, Kendre Miller, Jaleel McLaughlin, Sean Tucker, Deuce Vaughn
WR: A.J. Brown, Garrett Wilson, Tee Higgins, Calvin Ridley, Michael Wilson, Kendrick Bourne, Tutu Atwell, Allen Lazard, Isaiah Hodgins, Xavier Hutchinson
TE: T.J. Hockenson, Cole Kmet, Kylen Granson
K: Didn't make the playoffs in 2023 :cry: , and don't usually hold one in the offseason
Team DST: Cowboys, Lions

Picks:
2024: All my picks except 3rd rounder

Disclaimer: My one and only Championship in this league was way back in 2011. Therefore, take my replies with the appropriate grain of salt. :lol:

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby trc » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:35 pm

Pac_Eddy wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:53 pm For me, there is some strategy to kickers & defenses. I understand why people are eliminating them, but it's not completely random.
Kickers perhaps not - but defences are in my experience the most random position in dynasty.

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Shoreline Steamers » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:43 pm

We still use them in my dynasty leagues even though I don't list those players in my signature.

I really have no problem with leagues that want to eliminate K/D's from roster requirements, or those that want to keep them. All leagues are a little different after all. However, our primary directive for all rule changes are that they not be implemented until the season after passage.

One of my leagues will be moving to 1/2 pt. PPR in 2021, based on a vote we held before the 2020 season. At least that way all owners have a season to re-tool their teams in advance of the rule change. There will still likely be an owner or two who won't be happy when the change(s) take effect, but at least they had a season to tweak their roster in anticipation of the new league reality.

That's the best you can do IMO when changing your league format, scoring, rules, or roster construction. Even though that won't ever satisfy every owner. Some people are just going to complain no matter what you do.
14 Team, No-PPR, 20 Man Roster, TD Heavy, TD = 6, FG = 3, Start: QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, Flex, K, D
QB: L. Jackson, B. Purdy, T. Lance
RB: J. Mixon, N. Chubb, A. Dillon, J. Cook, K. Mitchell, J. McLaughlin, Z. Evans
WR: J. Chase, C. Godwin, D. Johnson, J. Reed, C. Tillman
TE: TJ Hockenson, D. Njoku, B. Jordan

14 Team, .5 PPR, 18 Man Roster, Rush/Rec TD = 6, Pass TD = 4, FG = 3, Start: QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, Flex, K, D
QB: L. Jackson, T. Tagovailoa
RB: B. Robinson, K. Walker, R. Stevenson, K. Herbertl
WR: C. Olave, T. Higgins, B. Aiyuk, N. Collins, Z. Flowers, M. Mims
TE: K. Pitts, D. Njoku

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby MEuRaH » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:12 pm

The idea of removing kickers/defense and adding flex is more than one rule change. Some people hate both but don't want to add flexes, and as a result you won't get the votes necessary to remove K/D.

IMO this should be four votes.

(1) Get rid of Kickers - Y or N
(2) Get rid of Defenses - Y or N


If either passes:
(3) Add flex spot to replace kicker - Y or N
(4) Add flex spot to replace defense - Y or N


Parsing it out is my vote.
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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Prison_Mike » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:14 pm

dlf_mikeh wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:12 pm The idea of removing kickers/defense and adding flex is more than one rule change. Some people hate both but don't want to add flexes, and as a result you won't get the votes necessary to remove K/D.

IMO this should be four votes.

(1) Get rid of Kickers - Y or N
(2) Get rid of Defenses - Y or N


If either passes:
(3) Add flex spot to replace kicker - Y or N
(4) Add flex spot to replace defense - Y or N


Parsing it out is my vote.
I like this idea. In fact, one owner already said in the chat:

"I'm always down to remove kickers but I'm personally a fan of defenses"

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby CGW » Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:48 pm

dlf_mikeh wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:12 pm The idea of removing kickers/defense and adding flex is more than one rule change. Some people hate both but don't want to add flexes, and as a result you won't get the votes necessary to remove K/D.

IMO this should be four votes.

(1) Get rid of Kickers - Y or N
(2) Get rid of Defenses - Y or N


If either passes:
(3) Add flex spot to replace kicker - Y or N
(4) Add flex spot to replace defense - Y or N


Parsing it out is my vote.
Very good suggestions.

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby thebadferret » Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:29 am

Keep Kickers, remove D/ST and introduce IDP. It's great!

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Re: Off-season Changes: Voting out Kickers/DST

Postby Bronco Billy » Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:44 am

thebadferret wrote: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:29 am Keep Kickers, remove D/ST and introduce IDP. It's great!
This is the correct answer. And don’t do it lightly, starting 3 or 4 D players, or it will be the same as D/ST.

I don’t understand people who think making FF easier makes it more fun. How does that work exactly? As to how random scoring is, have you checked the variance in game to game scoring by skill players? It’s a matter of doing some homework and finding Ds that are well built and focus on creating opportunities; and finding Os that support a lot of kicking opportunities.

But hey, if simple is your league’s thing and they all like it, who am I to say otherwise? Us? We start 20 every week, including 11 D players, a Kicker, and a Punter. It’s great fun in our opinions.


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