Collusion or not

[Jigga94]

disagree. This would never be allowed in any real sports league. While I try to avoid comparing fantasy to real football, when it comes to things like league integrity, taking advantage of rules and colluding affects both leagues the same

I think you need to look up the definition of collusion...

“secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.”

Considering the circumstances, How is this cheating?

I mean they did secretly cooperate to cheat others lol
Secret = their trade negotiations | cheat others = the rest of the league who wasn't renting players | illegal = as stated in the bylaws

They agreed upon a trade that would (might) buy them a win, not a trade for betterment of their teams. Evidenced by the fact that they traded the players back. Sure, we can recognize that one player was different. But I think most of us are smart enough to see what was being done here. To me, it's just a thinly veiled attempt at renting players and thus - collusion

I agree with others who said it's unlikely anything can be done since a rule wasn't technically broken; but it's still sketchy, damages league integrity, and I would expect better from my commish lol

Aren't all trade negotiations secret? How can you prove these weren't 2 separately negotiated trades? A win for each team sounds like the betterment of each team to me as well...

[Silver&Black]

Rough part is that I LOVE the roster/scoring setup of this league, but this is just the last of a few things that have seemed a bit shady to me. It's hard to feel like the league is playing fairly when things like this happen. Maybe it wasn't collusion, but it certainly feels like it to me.

I'll be maintaining my team for the rest of the season so that at least everyone gets to play my team equally (which may matter), but at the end of the season I'm moving on to find a league that seems to be more fair.

[Prison_Mike]

I think you need to look up the definition of collusion...

“secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.”

Considering the circumstances, How is this cheating?

I mean they did secretly cooperate to cheat others lol
Secret = their trade negotiations | cheat others = the rest of the league who wasn't renting players | illegal = as stated in the bylaws

They agreed upon a trade that would (might) buy them a win, not a trade for betterment of their teams. Evidenced by the fact that they traded the players back. Sure, we can recognize that one player was different. But I think most of us are smart enough to see what was being done here. To me, it's just a thinly veiled attempt at renting players and thus - collusion

I agree with others who said it's unlikely anything can be done since a rule wasn't technically broken; but it's still sketchy, damages league integrity, and I would expect better from my commish lol

Aren't all trade negotiations secret? How can you prove these weren't 2 separately negotiated trades?

lol yes they are.

I was being somewhat facetious as I don't think we should be looking to the technical definition of the word collusion in order to determine whether something sketchy was done here. It's more of a 'know it when you see it' kind of thing in most cases, which is why OP is asking for opinions

You can't prove it, which is why it's unlikely anything can be done. But I would certainly feel weird about my commish making such deals after publicly stating that anyone cheating will be removed

[Jigga94]

I mean they did secretly cooperate to cheat others lol
Secret = their trade negotiations | cheat others = the rest of the league who wasn't renting players | illegal = as stated in the bylaws

They agreed upon a trade that would (might) buy them a win, not a trade for betterment of their teams. Evidenced by the fact that they traded the players back. Sure, we can recognize that one player was different. But I think most of us are smart enough to see what was being done here. To me, it's just a thinly veiled attempt at renting players and thus - collusion

I agree with others who said it's unlikely anything can be done since a rule wasn't technically broken; but it's still sketchy, damages league integrity, and I would expect better from my commish lol

Aren't all trade negotiations secret? How can you prove these weren't 2 separately negotiated trades?

lol yes they are.

I was being somewhat facetious as I don't think we should be looking to the technical definition of the word collusion in order to determine whether something sketchy was done here. It's more of a 'know it when you see it' kind of thing in most cases, which is why OP is asking for opinions

You can't prove it, which is why it's unlikely anything can be done. But I would certainly feel weird about my commish making such deals after publicly stating that anyone cheating will be removed

Right, just saying these are 3 players that are all outside of top 100 in ADP (probably even 200? Lol) so does it matter? I hate renting players and one of my leagues have rules in place so you can't trade players back, but this isn't Mahomes for CMC and then Cook back for Mahomes... That's renting players. Or giving a team a player for a playoff run and then getting them back after the season for similar compensation.

If trade 1 is Logan Thomas for J. Williams and then trade 2 is the next week and it's Boston Scott for Jarwin... Then it's basically the same thing but with different players and no one bats an eye. The owners probably should've done this, but renting Jamaal Williams? Lol cmon

[Silver&Black]

Renting Jamaal Williams matters when Team A would score 0 points and have no RB if they don't trade to get him. If they don't trade to get him, it is VERY possible that the team they are playing beats them and takes over control of first place (which matters for playoff seeding).

Same thing for Team B, where the team it was facing has an almost identical points averaged per game and not getting any points for one position can mean a loss.

This is a 32 team, IDP league where finding players can be very thin.

[Jigga94]

Renting Jamaal Williams matters when Team A would score 0 points and have no RB if they don't trade to get him. If they don't trade to get him, it is VERY possible that the team they are playing beats them and takes over control of first place (which matters for playoff seeding).

Same thing for Team B, where the team it was facing has an almost identical points averaged per game and not getting any points for one position can mean a loss.

This is a 32 team, IDP league where finding players can be very thin.

Ok so what's the big deal? Both teams helped the other out. That's what trades are supposed to do, long term or short. How do you know the 2nd trade Jamaal Williams back wasn't a separately talked about trade? Do you have rules that prevent trading players back to the same team? If you don't have rules, or can't prove that it was a set-up rental situation then I don't think there's anythig you can do.

What else is Team A supposed to do? Sit there and not trade for a RB? What if after the week he says hmm I'd rather get a TE back now that I don't need Williams, would you like J Will back for Jarwin? Deal. It's team management

[Silver&Black]

I'm 100% sure there is nothing that I can do about the situation. That is why I am leaving the league at season's end after carefully reading every response here as well taking into account my own gut feelings on the matter. It ruins the integrity of the league and eliminates fair competition. It is not the first event that has seemed shady.

While the players are minor in terms of normal fantasy football, the implications are much bigger when the majority of the league has to fight through bye weeks with rosters spread thin from being a single player, 32 team league.

[Jigga94]

Fantasy football is supposed to be fun. If you think the league isn't playing fairly and it takes away from the game you have every right to leave the league. I respect that decision.

If it's a paid league, I would do everything you could to win this year, even if it meant selling future talent

[thunderTung]

Renting Jamaal Williams matters when Team A would score 0 points and have no RB if they don't trade to get him. If they don't trade to get him, it is VERY possible that the team they are playing beats them and takes over control of first place (which matters for playoff seeding).

Same thing for Team B, where the team it was facing has an almost identical points averaged per game and not getting any points for one position can mean a loss.

This is a 32 team, IDP league where finding players can be very thin.

Ok so what's the big deal? Both teams helped the other out. That's what trades are supposed to do, long term or short. How do you know the 2nd trade Jamaal Williams back wasn't a separately talked about trade? Do you have rules that prevent trading players back to the same team? If you don't have rules, or can't prove that it was a set-up rental situation then I don't think there's anythig you can do.

What else is Team A supposed to do? Sit there and not trade for a RB? What if after the week he says hmm I'd rather get a TE back now that I don't need Williams, would you like J Will back for Jarwin? Deal. It's team management

uhh what? he's more than allowed to trade for a RB lol. The problem is when he reverses the trade because he's out of the bind he was in. The fact that he has the authority as commish makes it worse as well.

If you want to manage your team, either make trades, or build your team with depth. I don't count stretching the rules for renting players team management haha.

The ranking of the players is irrelevant as well. It sets a bad precedent. What stops a non contender from renting out a guy like Kamara for the playoffs if he gets a 1st round pick out of it? If you want to change the rules to allow that, than by all means. But until that's specified its against the rules and obviously collusion.

[Never Veto1]

If they talked about trading players back before the first trade happened than yes it is collusion

[hoos89]

I think it’s fine because Team A received a dynasty upgrade in TE, while Team B received a better chance to compete for 1 week. That’s fair trade off in my eyes.

disagree. This would never be allowed in any real sports league. While I try to avoid comparing fantasy to real football, when it comes to things like league integrity, taking advantage of rules and colluding affects both leagues the same

Would it be disallowed or just something that would never be necessary? I mean player loans are a thing in european football leagues, right?

If they talked about trading players back before the first trade happened than yes it is collusion

What exactly is the collusion? I mean people just throw out this word for anything they deem unsavory but fundamentally I don't think anything is collusive unless it involves an arrangement outside the confines of the league, and I don't think an agreement to trade in the future really counts. In my opinion collusion generally requires some agreement involving money.

[briank]

People still don't know what collusion means. There has been zero evidence presented that trading Williams back was preplanned. Even still, it was for a different player. Unless you have specific rules against trading players back, it's fine. I have specific rules against it in my leagues.

It's not collusion because it's benefiting both owners. It's not cheating others.

[qazxswedcvfrtgbnhyuj]

@OP if you enjoy the league generally why not just ask for an add to the bylaws that prevents trading back players to tue same team in a certain time frame?

Seems like this should be an easy enough fix if enough folks have a problem with it.

[Silver&Black]

Please don't get hung up on the by book definition of collusion.

Also keep in mind that it is impossible to get 100% proof, as there is no way the two parties involved are going to be sharing any phone calls, emails, or social media messages that would implicate themselves.

It most definitely cheats other players, specifically the two teams that Team A and Team B are playing against that week, as well as anyone else in their division. It gives them an unfair advantage.

What stops anyone else from lending a player to another team to make sure that a rival gets beat? What stops a friend from helping out another friend in the league? There are a lot of what ifs involved if trades like this are sanctioned.

[Silver&Black]

@OP if you enjoy the league generally why not just ask for an add to the bylaws that prevents trading back players to tue same team in a certain time frame?

Seems like this should be an easy enough fix if enough folks have a problem with it.

I should clarify. I like the league rules and scoring quite a bit. There aren't many 32 team, no duplicate players leagues out there. Also, this is just one scenario. There have been other head scratching moves that are less obvious involving these teams.

I have no confidence that everyone in the league is playing fairly, so despite liking the team/player/scoring system, I don't feel confident enough that the integrity will be there in the future.