2020 BAD Trade Offers

[stoneghost28]

Just put up the 1.03 on the block asking for offers involving a QB or RB. Got these 4 offers almost immediately.

1. Give: 1.03, Mike Evans
Get: 1.01
2. Give: 1.03
Get: Foles
3. Give: 1.03, Golladay
Get: Bridgewater
4. Give: 1.03, Mike Evans
Get: Daniel Jones

Our player values don't seem to align.

Listening to podcasts, they talk about not getting aggravated, and I certainly don't get as aggravated as my brother about it, but it's hard to avoid feeling like someone thinks you're an idiot with certain kinds of offers. I don't see the point. Especially in the leagues I play in where trade protests are allowed (I know, so aggravating), and so such trades would never go through anyway.

[stoneghost28]

Just opened my email to see a guy who took over an orphan just offered me the greatness of Mark Ingram and Manny Sanders likely retirement tours, and a '21 3rd for Courtland Sutton, and Corey Davis. Imagine he's just testing the waters to see if I'm a dribbling imbecile or not (my roster's odd because I've been tanking the past two years to address my RB needs (it worked, I landed the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.06 in the lottery (and AJ Brown with the 1.06 last year) the amusing part was landing the 1.06 w/my own pick despite being a bottom 2 team, when the youtube vid lottery revealed me at 1.06, I was glad nothing breakable was near me, thankfully two firsts I acquired landed perfectly).

[MyTeam]

I was just told that none of my WRs besides Keenan Allen were worth the 1.11 this year.

[skinfanjon]

Just opened my email to see a guy who took over an orphan just offered me the greatness of Mark Ingram and Manny Sanders likely retirement tours, and a '21 3rd for Courtland Sutton, and Corey Davis. Imagine he's just testing the waters to see if I'm a dribbling imbecile or not (my roster's odd because I've been tanking the past two years to address my RB needs (it worked, I landed the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.06 in the lottery (and AJ Brown with the 1.06 last year) the amusing part was landing the 1.06 w/my own pick despite being a bottom 2 team, when the youtube vid lottery revealed me at 1.06, I was glad nothing breakable was near me, thankfully two firsts I acquired landed perfectly).

Hate to break it to you, but that's called an opening offer. You could easily counter off that to fair value. Maybe it doesnt fit your team and you dont want to counter, but upgrading the 3rd to a 1st solves it pretty easily.

*only caviat being if this is a league where you get bonus points for TDs by players named Sutton

[Mjvb5]

Just opened my email to see a guy who took over an orphan just offered me the greatness of Mark Ingram and Manny Sanders likely retirement tours, and a '21 3rd for Courtland Sutton, and Corey Davis. Imagine he's just testing the waters to see if I'm a dribbling imbecile or not (my roster's odd because I've been tanking the past two years to address my RB needs (it worked, I landed the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.06 in the lottery (and AJ Brown with the 1.06 last year) the amusing part was landing the 1.06 w/my own pick despite being a bottom 2 team, when the youtube vid lottery revealed me at 1.06, I was glad nothing breakable was near me, thankfully two firsts I acquired landed perfectly).

Hate to break it to you, but that's called an opening offer. You could easily counter off that to fair value. Maybe it doesnt fit your team and you dont want to counter, but upgrading the 3rd to a 1st solves it pretty easily.

*only caviat being if this is a league where you get bonus points for TDs by players named Sutton

That's not an opening offer, that pick as a first is an opening offer. Even with corey davis being garbage he's still worth a third and there's no way that manny sanders and ingram are close to sutton

[skinfanjon]

Just opened my email to see a guy who took over an orphan just offered me the greatness of Mark Ingram and Manny Sanders likely retirement tours, and a '21 3rd for Courtland Sutton, and Corey Davis. Imagine he's just testing the waters to see if I'm a dribbling imbecile or not (my roster's odd because I've been tanking the past two years to address my RB needs (it worked, I landed the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.06 in the lottery (and AJ Brown with the 1.06 last year) the amusing part was landing the 1.06 w/my own pick despite being a bottom 2 team, when the youtube vid lottery revealed me at 1.06, I was glad nothing breakable was near me, thankfully two firsts I acquired landed perfectly).

Hate to break it to you, but that's called an opening offer. You could easily counter off that to fair value. Maybe it doesnt fit your team and you dont want to counter, but upgrading the 3rd to a 1st solves it pretty easily.

*only caviat being if this is a league where you get bonus points for TDs by players named Sutton

That's not an opening offer, that pick as a first is an opening offer. Even with corey davis being garbage he's still worth a third and there's no way that manny sanders and ingram are close to sutton

Depends on the 1st but I'd say that's more like fair value, not an opener. Theres a lot of horrible offers in this thread; this is close enough to negotiate from. It may not fit his team, no idea, but it's an easy counter away from being a fair deal in a vaccuum.

Ingram just put up an RB1 season. Hes getting old but plenty of production left if you're a win now team.

[stoneghost28]

Just opened my email to see a guy who took over an orphan just offered me the greatness of Mark Ingram and Manny Sanders likely retirement tours, and a '21 3rd for Courtland Sutton, and Corey Davis. Imagine he's just testing the waters to see if I'm a dribbling imbecile or not (my roster's odd because I've been tanking the past two years to address my RB needs (it worked, I landed the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.06 in the lottery (and AJ Brown with the 1.06 last year) the amusing part was landing the 1.06 w/my own pick despite being a bottom 2 team, when the youtube vid lottery revealed me at 1.06, I was glad nothing breakable was near me, thankfully two firsts I acquired landed perfectly).

Hate to break it to you, but that's called an opening offer. You could easily counter off that to fair value. Maybe it doesnt fit your team and you dont want to counter, but upgrading the 3rd to a 1st solves it pretty easily.

*only caviat being if this is a league where you get bonus points for TDs by players named Sutton

It's a joke offer, but regardless, I rejected and countered, don't like to poison the well for trading w/too much negativity.

[murphysxm]

Hate to break it to you, but that's called an opening offer. You could easily counter off that to fair value. Maybe it doesnt fit your team and you dont want to counter, but upgrading the 3rd to a 1st solves it pretty easily.

*only caviat being if this is a league where you get bonus points for TDs by players named Sutton

That's not an opening offer, that pick as a first is an opening offer. Even with corey davis being garbage he's still worth a third and there's no way that manny sanders and ingram are close to sutton

Depends on the 1st but I'd say that's more like fair value, not an opener. Theres a lot of horrible offers in this thread; this is close enough to negotiate from. It may not fit his team, no idea, but it's an easy counter away from being a fair deal in a vaccuum.

Ingram just put up an RB1 season. Hes getting old but plenty of production left if you're a win now team.

I agree, this isn't an offer I consider, but no means is this horible. He clearly is going after Sutton, so look at his team and make a counter

[stoneghost28]

Hate to break it to you, but that's called an opening offer. You could easily counter off that to fair value. Maybe it doesnt fit your team and you dont want to counter, but upgrading the 3rd to a 1st solves it pretty easily.

*only caviat being if this is a league where you get bonus points for TDs by players named Sutton

That's not an opening offer, that pick as a first is an opening offer. Even with corey davis being garbage he's still worth a third and there's no way that manny sanders and ingram are close to sutton

Depends on the 1st but I'd say that's more like fair value, not an opener. Theres a lot of horrible offers in this thread; this is close enough to negotiate from. It may not fit his team, no idea, but it's an easy counter away from being a fair deal in a vaccuum.

Ingram just put up an RB1 season. Hes getting old but plenty of production left if you're a win now team.

In what UNIVERSE? Ingram will turn 31 in season. He may not even have a gig in two months time. Manny Sanders will be 33 before rookie mini-camps open. He wants Sutton for that, and a 2021 third, oh yeah, and I have toss in mega-disappointment Corey Davis, I guess for roster balancing so the trade can clear, but he made sure not to ask for one of my mega-dark horse likely cut candidates like Justin Jackson, but rather for a player that once carried a great deal of trade value and would again if he ended up ever producing a quality season, instead of a season with just two quality games.

There's a reason the DLF analyzer scored this trade:

703.09 to 278.2 for him.

It was absurd.

It also included one of those classic pet peeve issues of not taking into account the interests of the trade partner whatsoever. The roster of this team of mine is a productive struggle tank job, that I rebuilt in '18 and '19 focusing on WR's/TE's, ignoring RB's until the '20 rookie draft beyond adding speculative pieces as throw ins/waiver wire pick ups (Chase Edmonds, Darrell Henderson, Bryce Love, Ito Smith) as when I take over orphans or decide to blow up teams, I usually prioritize WR/TE first, then address QB and RB when I am ready to try and win (sometimes I add QB's, but only to do quick flips). There isn't a team less likely to be interested in Ingram, and Sanders in this particular league than mine.

[skinfanjon]

That's not an opening offer, that pick as a first is an opening offer. Even with corey davis being garbage he's still worth a third and there's no way that manny sanders and ingram are close to sutton

Depends on the 1st but I'd say that's more like fair value, not an opener. Theres a lot of horrible offers in this thread; this is close enough to negotiate from. It may not fit his team, no idea, but it's an easy counter away from being a fair deal in a vaccuum.

Ingram just put up an RB1 season. Hes getting old but plenty of production left if you're a win now team.

In what UNIVERSE? Ingram will turn 31 in season. He may not even have a gig in two months time. Manny Sanders will be 33 before rookie mini-camps open. He wants Sutton for that, and a 2021 third, oh yeah, and I have toss in mega-disappointment Corey Davis, I guess for roster balancing so the trade can clear, but he made sure not to ask for one of my mega-dark horse likely cut candidates like Justin Jackson, but rather for a player that once carried a great deal of trade value and would again if he ended up ever producing a quality season, instead of a season with just two quality games.

There's a reason the DLF analyzer scored this trade:

703.09 to 278.2 for him.

It was absurd.

Ok, time for me to try buying Ingram.

An RB1 season is much more valuable than a WR2 if you're a contender. The rest of the pieces are junk to me. If you give me a top 8 pick in 2020 and Ingram, I will definitely give you Sutton. It's a simple counter away from being real.

[stoneghost28]

You probably need to note my last point in my last post as well, this team of mine is a tear down rebuild from '18-'19, it's still probably a year from contending even w/the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.06 to use or trade from this rookie draft.

I've got no starting caliber RB's pre-rookie draft.

My WR corps is:
Amari Cooper
DJ Moore
Courtland Sutton
AJ Brown
N. Harry
C. Davis
C. Samuel
Sims
Reynolds

My TE Corps is:
Goedert
I. Thomas
Njoku
Oliver
Warring

I addressed QB via the waiver wire (Stafford, Minchew), and then grabbed Kyler Murray in a trade to be my #1 option (I'll just back him up with vet QB's).

A team like this is not served by having Ingram, even if it was a reasonable offer, which it wasn't, trying to build it for 2021, and if I fall into the draft lottery one more year, so be it, I love my WR corps, I like my TE's, I'm good at QB, and after the rookie draft, barring a trade, I'll have two of Jonathan Taylor, Swift and Dobbins, and hopefully one other RB if I get lucky and one falls in my lap at 1.06. When I'm ready to contend hopefully in '21, I'll have young RB's on the second year of their rookie contracts with long careers ahead of them, not a guy ready for the retirement home.

For me Ingram is a worst case scenario acquisition piece, either he's productive and artificially pushes up my win total, while not making me an actual contender hurting my draft slotting for '21, or he's replaced, has little trade value if any, and I lose one of my most valuable trade pieces in exchange for the end of his career and the end of Manny Sanders career, a trade piece that's only 24 going on 25 years old, rather than 33 or soon to be 31 in Ingram's case.

[skinfanjon]

You probably need to note my last point in my last post as well, this team of mine is a tear down rebuild from '18-'19, it's still probably a year from contending even w/the 1.01, 1.02 and 1.06 to use or trade from this rookie draft.

I've got no starting caliber RB's pre-rookie draft.

My WR corps is:
Amari Cooper
DJ Moore
Courtland Sutton
AJ Brown
N. Harry
C. Davis
C. Samuel
Sims
Reynolds

My TE Corps is:
Goedert
I. Thomas
Njoku
Oliver
Warring

I addressed QB via the waiver wire (Stafford, Minchew), and then grabbed Kyler Murray in a trade to be my #1 option (I'll just back him up with vet QB's).

A team like this is not served by having Ingram, even if it was a reasonable offer, which it wasn't, trying to build it for 2021, and if I fall into the draft lottery one more year, so be it, I love my WR corps, I like my TE's, I'm good at QB, and after the rookie draft, barring a trade, I'll have two of Jonathan Taylor, Swift and Dobbins, and hopefully one other RB if I get lucky and one falls in my lap at 1.06. When I'm ready to contend hopefully in '21, I'll have young RB's on the second year of their rookie contracts with long careers ahead of them, not a guy ready for the retirement home.

For me Ingram is a worst case scenario acquisition piece, either he's productive and artificially pushes up my win total, while not making me an actual contender hurting my draft slotting for '21, or he's replaced, has little trade value if any, and I lose one of my most valuable trade pieces in exchange for the end of his career and the end of Manny Sanders career, a trade piece that's only 24 going on 25 years old, rather than 33 or soon to be 31 in Ingram's case.

I hear you man but most people dont put that much effort into analyzing your roster. And even if they did, honestly, I could look at that and say damn, you could contend next year and Ingram just had a 245 point season. Hes just barely 30 btw and always been in some form of a committee, so low mileage.

I'm just saying, it's not on par with the stuff in this thread. Dont care what a calculator says. Getting a highly producing RB in a trade should always get folks attention and is not a terrible starting point in a trade for a young WR.

You have a good team. If I had your squad and its Ingram and say, Justin Jefferson (my 1.08), I'm taking it.

[Mephistopheles]

Let's not kid ourselves. It's an awful offer not an "opening offer". The guy is essentially asking for Sutton, a 3rd year breakout candidate, for free. He could make that 3rd a 1st and it's still a steaming pile of monkey bleep.

When people say "it's just an opening offer", they really mean "I'm testing the waters to see if you're stupid enough to do this".

[stoneghost28]

My view as well. As I said earlier, DLF has this at literally 700+ points for him, 280 something for me. That's not a bad trade, that's basically a truly horrific trade. It's also a trade that in the leagues where there's a protest function, well, needless to say, it wouldn't stand a chance in hell of clearing. Of course w/a few supporters above, clearly there are some that just love the proven 30+ vets, over the young upside guys on the cusp, (and coming off 70+ catch 1100 yard season with borderline league worst quarterbacking) and a young player with stock fading fast in Corey Davis but I still see zero sense in that argument. What makes it even funnier is looking at the Feb 2020 startup ADP:

Sutton: 3.02 (26th overall)-Best Piece
C. Davis: 11.10 (130th overall)
for:
Ingram: 8.8 (92nd overall)-Best Piece
E. Sanders: 14.11 (167.5)
2021 3rd (largely worthless)

It's comically bad. The equivalent of trading a late 2nd/early 3rd startup pick, and an 11th/12th turn pick for a late 8th, late 14th, and 2021 3rd round rookie pick. It's awful, period.

[stoneghost28]

my blah blah long post

I hear you man but most people dont put that much effort into analyzing your roster. And even if they did, honestly, I could look at that and say damn, you could contend next year and Ingram just had a 245 point season. Hes just barely 30 btw and always been in some form of a committee, so low mileage.

I'm just saying, it's not on par with the stuff in this thread. Dont care what a calculator says. Getting a highly producing RB in a trade should always get folks attention and is not a terrible starting point in a trade for a young WR.

You have a good team. If I had your squad and its Ingram and say, Justin Jefferson (my 1.08), I'm taking it.

I agree w/your first point. Generally people just look for guys they want and send offers. However, if you're sending an offer like that, a cursory review would make sense because you'd know instantly your wasting your time.

I'd disagree w/your latter points. This isn't redraft, it's dynasty, the age curves with RB's are clear, age 25/26 is peak, after that, it's downhill in general w/only rare exceptions these days (AP, Ingram) and those exceptions are becoming more rare, rather than more common over time. You keep trying to sell the argument that you've got a megaback in Ingram, and I keep trying to remind you that Ingram will turn 31 in December in a league where RB's that age are nearly an extinct species, add in that if Jackson goes down, Ingram's production craters, add in that Baltimore might grab a RB this year considering he's a cut candidate this year and especially in '21, add in that Ingram was a non-entity in '18, and middling in '17.

I've seen worse offers myself, but this is an awful trade offer, period. Not caring about what the Calculator, what DLF ADP has to say is kinda insane to me as well. DLF ADP/that Analyzer they made is the market place. Ingram is basically about to fall into the 9th round with the potential to completely crater if Baltimore goes after a RB on day 1/2, Sutton has climbed up to just a touch below round 2, w/zero QB support to boot.

DLF ADP tells you that the RB's just a touch above and below include the big 3 from the 2020 class (Taylor, Swift, Dobbins), as well as guys like Sanders, Jacobs, and Fournette (who is not returning that, at all, in trades in the offseason, he and Aaron Jones are guys with high ADP's that nobody wants to buy). If I were to trade Sutton, why would I trade him, and Corey Davis (essentially for free, who is god awful thus far, but for free?) for a RB that could be done in '21, when I can currently trade him for a top 10 current RB, or a top 3 RB from this class?

It makes no sense at all, especially when you consider that his age, and tenuous hold on that job, and the offense he is used in is so potentially volatile in value if the QB goes down, compared to other teams. There's a million reasons not to do it, and 2019 is the only reason to do it (from the Ingram perspective), and it still doesnt make sense. Probably the best example of why, is nobody is trading the 3.02 and 11.10 in a startup for a late 8th rounder, and a 14th rounder, and a 2021 3rd round rookie pick, literally nobody. That kind of sums it up.

Anyway, this is a clear, and quite massive example of agree to disagree.