Let's talk... JuJu Smith-Schuster

[Goddard]

On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.

To be fair, not many WR2s have ever put up the type of numbers Juju has. I'm not going to go and look up WR2s that ended up being WR1s, but the one that comes to mind most recently is Michael Thomas. Cooks was considered the #1 on that team his rookie year and I can't remember if people said MT would struggle without him. I'm sure there were some, but obviously he's doing just fine as the #1.

[Phaded]

On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.

Deandre Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Davante Adams, Julio Jones... the list is long friend

...lol, that's your list?
Okay, that tells me all I need to know about your stance.

[Sriracha]

On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.

Deandre Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Davante Adams, Julio Jones... the list is long friend

...lol, that's your list?
Okay, that tells me all I need to know about your stance.

Most WR1's were WR2s at some point; and the ones that emerged as elite were prolific in that role.

Davante Adams was behind Jordy Nelson, Julio Jones was behind Roddy White, Michael Thomas was behind Brandin Cooks, Deandre Hopkins was behind Andre Johnson.

If you're productive as a WR, you're just a good WR. It's not as if all or even most WR's across from Julio, Calvin Johnson etc saw much success.

If you want to poke holes at my logic, I'd be interested in hearing your arguments instead of a snarky response where you contribute nothing to the discussion

[Phaded]

Adams was in the league for four years before he even put up his first 1000 yard season, I'm not sure he was ever even considered an elite WR2. I certainly wouldn't even call him an elite WR1 at this point.

Michael Thomas took over and out-targeted Cooks from the get-go.

The Falcons did not trade the farm to move up and grab Julio @ #4 to be a WR2 on their team.

It sounds like we may have different definitions of WR2 versus succession.

All of these other guys exploded when given the chance to be the #1. JuJu has not.
The biggest difference when the other guys became their WR1 is that they saw an uptick in targets that helped elevate them to that point.

JuJu is basically the equivalent of Jarvis Landry from a production/talent standpoint.
The point is - all teams have a WR who is going to be fed targets, the difference is whether you turn that volume into elite production or if your production is primarily volume based. Being fed targets does not automatically mean you're elite, it's the same default logic that causes people to chase the Terrelle Pryors of the world.

Targets = production, no matter who you are. The point is, a guy like JuJu is not the world beating talent that is going to hold off someone from usurping him.

Here's a question for you - is he your dynasty WR2?
Again, I'm not saying JuJu is BAD - but he's not the high end WR1 he is being valued as.

[Sriracha]

Adams was in the league for four years before he even put up his first 1000 yard season, I'm not sure he was ever even considered an elite WR2.

Michael Thomas took over and out-targeted Cooks from the get-go.

The Falcons did not trade the farm to move up and grab Julio @ #4 to be a WR2 on their team.

It sounds like we may have different definitions of WR2 versus succession.

All of these other guys exploded when given the chance to be the #1. JuJu has not.

JuJu is basically the equivalent of Jarvis Landry from a production/talent standpoint.
The point is - all teams have a WR who is going to be fed targets, the difference is whether you turn that production into elite production or if your production is primarily volume based. Being fed targets does not automatically mean you're elite, it's the same default logic that causes people to chase the Terrelle Pryors of the world.

Targets = production, no matter who you are. The point is, a guy like JuJu is not the world beating talent that is going to hold off someone from usurping him.

Davante Adams during his 3rd year break out: 997 yards and 12TDs in 15 games, Jordy Nelson- 1247 yards 14TDs

If he wasn't thought of as an elite WR2 at that point, he should've been.

You asked for a list of elite WR2s that became elite #1s.. and I gave you some names.

The fact that Julio was thought of as a better prospect does not change the fact that he fits the requirement you were asking for.

Hopkins year 2: 127 targets, 1210 yards, 6TDs. Andre Johnson that year: 146 targets, 936 yards, 3TDs.

Sure he outproduced Johnson that year, but he pretty much done at that point and was out of the league 2 years later.

Juju's stats last year: 166 targets, 1426 yards, 7TDs Antonio Brown: 168 targets, 1297 yards, 15TDs
Excluding the TDs, Juju was both the more efficient and more prolific receiver in his 2nd year... and this is while AB is still a top 10 WR talent (despite his craziness about to black ball him from the league).

I agree that targets are a big part of production... but the ability to garner targets in the face of fierce target competition is itself a testament to talent. The big difference between Jarvis Landry and Juju (and there are many) is that Jarvis was never efficient in MIA. He vacuumed up the targets and was productive off of volume alone. Juju has shown efficiency in the face of volume.. and sure AB had something to do with that, but as I've hopefully shown at this point his career arch is much closer to a DeAndre Hopkins than it is a Jarvis Landry.

[Hottoddies]

His target count is down for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with Mason Rudolph. His target count is down because he is not getting open as frequently as he was last year.

This just isn't true. In the two games Rudolph started, he's attempted 27 and 28 passes. Ben averaged over 40 pass attempts per game last year. And if anyone watched that game against Cincinnati, they'll tell you that the majority of those passes were dump offs to RBs. So if you don't think the lack of targets were because of Rudolph and the game plan and it's because Juju isn't getting open, there's no point in even having this discussion/argument.

Also, no ones mentioned his toe injury during the first game, which he apparently aggravated on Monday, as a cause to why he may be struggling some.

While that conservative gameplan worked last week, they won't be playing the Bengals every week.

Sooner or later they're going to have to uncork Rudolph, and if at that point Juju is healthy and he still can't produce I'll begin to worry about his ability to be a true #1 in the NFL.

Until then... I see this as a huge overreaction. I honestly can't remember a single elite WR2 that couldn't cut it as a #1. Anyone got a precedence for this "elite Wr2 but can't cut it as a #1" narrative being spun here?

I'm not quite certain what would qualify for an "elite WR2", and I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember, but here are two that I can think of:

T.J. Houshmandzadeh posted a couple of thousand yard seasons and a Pro Bowl appearance playing second fiddle to Chad Johnson in Cincinnati. He went on to chase the money in Seattle only to disappoint.

Greg Jennings turned in a few thousand yard season playing with Donald Driver in Green Bay but failed to see the same results in Minnesota.

It could be argued that their success was due to their QB or the system they played in but I would think that it certainly helped that they both had elite teammates to draw in the defensive attention.

[thebeast]

I think Randall Cobb didn’t make the transition despite displaying elite traits as a #2.

Tyler Locket has not made he transition despite RW playing at an MVP level and his own historic efficiency last year.

Anquan Bolden never became an elite #1 in fact his best year was as a sidekick to Larry.

These are just a few that came to mind off the top of my head.

The other WR I would note is Mike Wallace, looked like an elite #1 with Ben, but then regressed without him. There are two regression points for Juju, the loss of AB and Ben.

[Phaded]

I agree that targets are a big part of production... but the ability to garner targets in the face of fierce target competition is itself a testament to talent. The big difference between Jarvis Landry and Juju (and there are many) is that Jarvis was never efficient in MIA. He vacuumed up the targets and was productive off of volume alone. Juju has shown efficiency in the face of volume.. and sure AB had something to do with that, but as I've hopefully shown at this point his career arch is much closer to a DeAndre Hopkins than it is a Jarvis Landry.

I agree that talent demands targets, but sometimes targets are also just a matter of default and there being no one else. When you look at the Steelers roster - to me it is a massive red flag that JuJu is not commanding more targets than he presently is. Especially when you consider the rest of the roster around him. If JuJu was as talented as some here are hoping he is, he should be commanding more targets. He commanded as many targets last year because AB was consistently being doubled and thus attention was not on AB. Between the two of them, agan, it was an absurd amount of targets.

Again, I will continually state that I don't think JuJu is BAD - simply that he has been grossly overvalued heading into this year.

When was the last time that a WR2 had the 4th most targets in the league? Without researching, I can say it has most likely never happened. His efficiency per target is about the same as last year, the difference is that he is not getting the absurd amount of targets.

[Sriracha]

I'm not quite certain what would qualify for an "elite WR2", and I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember, but here are two that I can think of:

T.J. Houshmandzadeh posted a couple of thousand yard seasons and a Pro Bowl appearance playing second fiddle to Chad Johnson in Cincinnati. He went on to chase the money in Seattle only to disappoint.

Greg Jennings turned in a few thousand yard season playing with Donald Driver in Green Bay but failed to see the same results in Minnesota.

It could be argued that their success was due to their QB or the system they played in but I would think that it certainly helped that they both had elite teammates to draw in the defensive attention.

Houshmandzadeh is an interesting name, and is probably the closest thing to what I was asking for; although he was never more efficient than Ochocinco; and was less productive in the small sample size where Ocho was injured (whereas Juju's small sample stats without AB are still prolific).

Boldin is a good one, too.. It is interesting that after a few near 1,000 yard seasons in BAL he returned as a clear WR1 in SF.

Good stuff

[Sriracha]

I agree that targets are a big part of production... but the ability to garner targets in the face of fierce target competition is itself a testament to talent. The big difference between Jarvis Landry and Juju (and there are many) is that Jarvis was never efficient in MIA. He vacuumed up the targets and was productive off of volume alone. Juju has shown efficiency in the face of volume.. and sure AB had something to do with that, but as I've hopefully shown at this point his career arch is much closer to a DeAndre Hopkins than it is a Jarvis Landry.

I agree that talent demands targets, but sometimes targets are also just a matter of default and there being no one else. When you look at the Steelers roster - to me it is a massive red flag that JuJu is not commanding more targets than he presently is. Especially when you consider the rest of the roster around him. If JuJu was as talented as some here are hoping he is, he should be commanding more targets. He commanded as many targets last year because AB was consistently being doubled and thus attention was not on AB. Between the two of them, agan, it was an absurd amount of targets.

Again, I will continually state that I don't think JuJu is BAD - simply that he has been grossly overvalued heading into this year.

When was the last time that a WR2 had the 4th most targets in the league? Without researching, I can say it has most likely never happened. His efficiency per target is about the same as last year, the difference is that he is not getting the absurd amount of targets.

Good points.. I guess we're in a bit more uncharted territory with Juju than I initially thought.

[Phaded]

That's the thing - is that I literally think that there is no precedent for JuJu.

[Goddard]

On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.

Deandre Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Davante Adams, Julio Jones... the list is long friend

...lol, that's your list?
Okay, that tells me all I need to know about your stance.

Like I said, I'm not gonna look it up. I'm not the one claiming he was only good because he had AB next to him. Where's your list of WR2s that were successful and busted when given a shot at being the WR1?

[Goddard]

Is Reggie Wayne another WR2 who became the WR1 and still succeeded?
Terrell Owens?

[Pullo Vision]

here's your list of WR2s that were successful and busted when given a shot at being the WR1?

I don't have a list, but first name that comes to mind is Alvin Harper.

[Goddard]

here's your list of WR2s that were successful and busted when given a shot at being the WR1?

I don't have a list, but first name that comes to mind is Alvin Harper.

I like the troll attempt, but Alvin Harper never had a season as a WR2 like Juju did last year. Nor did he ever go on to become the WR1 on that same team.