The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

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Cameron Giles
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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby Cameron Giles » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:43 pm

bigchiefbc wrote:
People Mover wrote:Can't help but think some of these Cook and it's not even close posters are trying to drag Fournettes value down so they can land him at 1.02.
I can say that's definitely not my angle. Fournette just didn't knock my socks off this year like Cook did. I'd even say Fournette didn't even look like the best back on his own team this year. Watch Derrius Guice's tape from the A&M game, he was just as amazing as I'd always heard Fournette was. I hope it was just injuries. I hope he wasn't holding back waiting for the payday honestly. That's a character thing for me personally.
Fournette's been playing injured most of the season. Watch his 2015 games, where he was flat out dominant and as good as Ezekiel Elliott: 300 carries, 1953 yards, 22 touchdowns.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby People Mover » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:59 pm

What has he done for me lately mentality. What more should he do? Fly?
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I own 1.01, 2.01, 3.01, 4.01, 5.01 (plan to trade those picks for JMatt)

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stoneghost28
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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby stoneghost28 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:08 am

Crwdstunna wrote:Yea, landing spot is big for these guys. If one of them goes to either Indy or Green Bay for me are 1.01. The Raiders are also interesting to me. The top 4 players (Fournette, Cook, Williams, and Davis) look solid to me so far. Some might change out some of those guys, but there is talent here.
Raiders would trump the Colts and Packers for me due to the OL. Raiders OL is significantly better than the Packer and Colts OL. However the highest the Raiders probably pick is what, 23rd? Probably too far for him to fall unless they trade up. I wonder who the Raiders might target at RB? Washington seems like a disappointment this year for them while Richard is too small to be a bell cow and Murray is doing the bare minimum w/a ridiculously friendly situation, their slot fits McCaffrey and Foreman. I think they'd pass, and go after a FA RB, or draft one in round 2 or 3. They still need to work on the D. The Colts still need to fix their OL and D. Yep RB is important, but I could really see them waiting until round 2 or 3 to get one to train under Gore during his last year in Indy. For now if I were projecting who takes Cook, and Fournette, I'd go with Carolina (if they don't go CB), Philadelphia, and Baltimore, w/some outside options like NYJ, Indy, Tampa, Cleveland, and Washington (though I think Washington goes Defense).

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby cha » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:25 am

onetwothree wrote:Have 1.01 and leaning Fournette. I think he maybe didn't push as hard through injuries this season with the payday right around the corner. If LSU was in the playoffs, he'd be playing.

I'd rather be wrong by not taking Cook than by not taking Fournette if that makes sense.
Agree. I have the 1st pick this year and unless some bombshell comes out pre-draft I am set on Fournette. I do not know how you have the 1.01 pick and not take him? I think he is far ahead of Cook in talent and it is not really that close.

I feel that in fantasy this happens every year. We anticipate the best RB or WR coming out and then it is their turn and a bunch of people try and play "scout" and punch holes in their game and come up with reasons why the previously inferior talent is now superior. A lot fantasy players "outsmart" themselves thinking they know more about the game then they do because they "studied" some Youtube film.

Will have to pull out the Berry quote...Don't get cute...

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby stoneghost28 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:38 pm

Well last year at this time Treadwell was the 1.1. He wasn't consensus either, quite a few were touting Zeke, and it wasn't until Treadwell made a mess of the combine/workouts, that his valuation dropped to a consensus of 1.2 (and then it dropped further in many places).

I think the Cook love has been growing for quite a while, and there clearly isn't a consensus valuation of Fournette as the #1 anymore, especially when you dig into the #'s (check out the recent rotoviz write up on him). I'm leaning towards trying to trade down to 1.2 in two other leagues where I have the 1.1 because I don't mind landing Cook instead, I view them as fairly even at this point pending landing spot, and I'd love to get the extra goodies that could come from trading the pick.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby jimmychoi » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:49 pm

That rotoviz article mentions high school measurements...I'd like a bit more recent data. I'm not sold totally on Fournette, but I'd like to see how the combine goes. I do like the idea of trading back to two and piling up some additional picks.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby Anak » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:31 pm

stoneghost28 wrote:Well last year at this time Treadwell was the 1.1. He wasn't consensus either, quite a few were touting Zeke, and it wasn't until Treadwell made a mess of the combine/workouts, that his valuation dropped to a consensus of 1.2 (and then it dropped further in many places).

I think the Cook love has been growing for quite a while, and there clearly isn't a consensus valuation of Fournette as the #1 anymore, especially when you dig into the #'s (check out the recent rotoviz write up on him). I'm leaning towards trying to trade down to 1.2 in two other leagues where I have the 1.1 because I don't mind landing Cook instead, I view them as fairly even at this point pending landing spot, and I'd love to get the extra goodies that could come from trading the pick.
I would wait until after the draft, at least. Obviously 1.01 could see a huge spike in value if Fournette/Cook go into a great situation. But if one of them goes to a great situation and the other goes to a horrid situation, 1.02 could become a bit muddied you may be regretting moving down a spot.
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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby cha » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:36 am

jimmychoi wrote:That rotoviz article mentions high school measurements...I'd like a bit more recent data. I'm not sold totally on Fournette, but I'd like to see how the combine goes. I do like the idea of trading back to two and piling up some additional picks.
Yeah the Fournette article by Rotoviz was just lazy work. When you compare it to their Cook article you can tell the difference in work put in and you can see a bit of bias creeping in.

The Cook article also mentions either Cook or McCaffrey as the best players in the draft. I like CM but when you mention him as the possible best player in this draft you lose credibility.

I will say that I used to find Rotoviz really interesting but over the last few years less so. They take a bunch of meaningless numbers, lump them together, and then try to make broad comparisons. Their hit rate with this approach is not all that successful and you should really take their sleepers list with a grain of salt. They are the definition of getting "too cute" with the process.

I also find it humorous that they take issue with his age. He is 22, he basically saved a year of mileage this year, and RBs do not have a long self life anyways.
Last edited by cha on Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby cha » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:39 am

stoneghost28 wrote:Well last year at this time Treadwell was the 1.1. He wasn't consensus either, quite a few were touting Zeke, and it wasn't until Treadwell made a mess of the combine/workouts, that his valuation dropped to a consensus of 1.2 (and then it dropped further in many places).

I think the Cook love has been growing for quite a while, and there clearly isn't a consensus valuation of Fournette as the #1 anymore, especially when you dig into the #'s (check out the recent rotoviz write up on him). I'm leaning towards trying to trade down to 1.2 in two other leagues where I have the 1.1 because I don't mind landing Cook instead, I view them as fairly even at this point pending landing spot, and I'd love to get the extra goodies that could come from trading the pick.
I think a lot of it has to do with the "what have you done for me lately". If Fournette was coming off his Soph numbers this wouldn't even be a debate. His Soph year is even more incredible when you consider just how bad a offensive coach Miles was and his OC was.

This year he was never healthy, Miles sucked about as much as usual, and then they changed HCs and OCs mid season. Not a recipe for success.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby jimmychoi » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:45 am

dc1986 wrote:The only thing that really worries me about Fournette is that Alabama was able to pretty much completely shut him down 3 years in a row. I hope that it's just a matter of an all-time great defense stacking the box because LSU had no passing game. Maybe with a competent offense and a decent QB, teams won't be able to do that... But it does makes me wonder- if one college team can dominate him like that, what will he do against NFL defenses that are just as big and fast as him.
I had the same concerns, so I decided to watch the entire game the last time he faced Bama,and I saw why he had so much trouble. I'm not a total Fournette homer ( undecided), but super man would have not been able to accomplish much in that game. Bama's defensive line man handled LSu's line. I recall one play in which the Bama nose tackle picked the lsu center up and threw him 4-5 ft backwards on his a$$. The game plan was stop Fournette and make a the below average lsu qb throw. When you have a dominant defensive line, game changing line backers, and safeties that spy or drop down to stop a rb....the formula is as predicted. I'm still not sold on Fournette, but based on the one game I watched, I didn't see that as a damning indictment on him. I'm not an analyst though, so take that into consideration.

Plus...Bama's coaching outmatched lsu's coach who might be the Cajun guy from the Waterboy.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby cha » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:49 am

dc1986 wrote:The only thing that really worries me about Fournette is that Alabama was able to pretty much completely shut him down 3 years in a row. I hope that it's just a matter of an all-time great defense stacking the box because LSU had no passing game. Maybe with a competent offense and a decent QB, teams won't be able to do that... But it does makes me wonder- if one college team can dominate him like that, what will he do against NFL defenses that are just as big and fast as him.
I would use Gurley as the perfect example of what can happen to a talented RB when you have no passing threat and a defense can just stack the box. Saban has had a great defense and was going to make LSU throw the ball because he knew they couldn't.

Not that he is a lock to produce as he is most likely not going to have the same supporting cast as Elliott had this year. And I am weary of any RB anymore. I had the 1.1 in the Bush and McFadden drafts and that did not go to good for me. I have had more success picking RBs late in the draft although I will get back up on that horse and take another at 1.1 again.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby MichaelScarn » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:09 am

Im still picking Fournette, the Cook train has started rolling. Will be interesting to see the combine and landing spots. I own the 1.01 and what looks like the 1.03, so I'd love to add both of them for Team 1
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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby People Mover » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:19 am

Im in the same boat with the 1.01 and 1.03. Though, Im actually hoping the owner of the 1.02 does not trade out of the slot and takes Cook. Nothing would please me more than to have Fournette AND the top receiver in the draft.
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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby stoneghost28 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:58 am

cha wrote:
jimmychoi wrote:That rotoviz article mentions high school measurements...I'd like a bit more recent data. I'm not sold totally on Fournette, but I'd like to see how the combine goes. I do like the idea of trading back to two and piling up some additional picks.
Yeah the Fournette article by Rotoviz was just lazy work. When you compare it to their Cook article you can tell the difference in work put in and you can see a bit of bias creeping in.

The Cook article also mentions either Cook or McCaffrey as the best players in the draft. I like CM but when you mention him as the possible best player in this draft you lose credibility.

I will say that I used to find Rotoviz really interesting but over the last few years less so. They take a bunch of meaningless numbers, lump them together, and then try to make broad comparisons. Their hit rate with this approach is not all that successful and you should really take their sleepers list with a grain of salt. They are the definition of getting "too cute" with the process.

I also find it humorous that they take issue with his age. He is 22, he basically saved a year of mileage this year, and RBs do not have a long self life anyways.
I still find it interesting, but I view all of the sites, DLF, rotoviz, player profiler, football guys, rotoworld, as just tool kits to help my play. I tend to avoid using them as anything other than augmentation of my own process, but I do rely on them consistently because they do the #'s work that I'm both too lazy, and in some cases, to math-inept to do myself. I also am not going to engage in the pretense that I'm a genius tape grinder. I'm not. Sometimes I nail obscure players (I still think fondly of believing Jeff Blake would be able to play in the NFL after he was a stud for East Carolina, I don't know of anyone on the planet other than the Bengals that agreed with me at the time, but it proved to be true), but other times I love guys and they end up being horrifically bad, guys like Braylan Edwards, Karen Robinson, Freddie Mitchell, for every Chad Johnson I called, there is a Cris Chambers I thought would be a complete bust. I think I'm definitely better at this today than I was fifteen+ years ago when I had fewer tools to work with, hell almost no tools to work with, but I'm not naive enough to believe that at least in my case, I can't use this stuff to help me.

That being said, when I see something like that projected start up where they have Cook going 2.1, Juju going at 2.11, Corey at 2.12, Fournette at 3.1, and McCaffrey at 3.2 that somebody let the chimp mascot at rotoviz edit an article. There is nobody on the planet that I know of right now that would rate Juju #2 in the class. He may fly up the boards if he kills it against Penn State AND kills it at the combine/workouts, but if '16 did anything to his stock, it drove it down, Fournette as the 4th guy just strikes me as insanity, McCaffrey going at the top of round 3 seems like just epic idiocy. So yeah, always take with a grain of salt, and I definitely co-sign on the idea of waiting on trading a 1.1 until after the draft, strikes me as looney to trade too early unless there is a ton of press that Fournette and Chubb are a lock to go to a garbage situation.

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Re: The 1.01: Fournette or Cook

Postby ebsteelers » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:01 pm

i know its just a a bowl game to some people... but cook impressed me tonight...

not sure what it is.. but i really like what cook can do .. and i like that he played in "to some meaning less bowl game".. i understand forurnette for not playing... but i appreciate a player who didnt quit on his teams season.. because they werent playing for the national title... it just makes me wonder... what one player will sit out during the nfl regular season and what will not?


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