Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby ThunderTung » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Heard something from an emailer on a podcast today that I felt was a good point.

I won't try and defend Gruden, but does anyone else find it interesting how the NFL reacts in the way they treat people like Gruden for stuff that the've said, yet this years half time show featuring Snoop, Em, and Dre who have all (especially Em lol) said way worse things publicly, let alone privately.

Not making a stand or taking a side, im a fan of all the performers in this years show. Just thought it was a relevant point in the consistency of the NFL and how "genuine" they are about "not standing for this type of behavior"
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby mild » Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:59 pm

ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:21 pm Heard something from an emailer on a podcast today that I felt was a good point.

I won't try and defend Gruden, but does anyone else find it interesting how the NFL reacts in the way they treat people like Gruden for stuff that the've said, yet this years half time show featuring Snoop, Em, and Dre who have all (especially Em lol) said way worse things publicly, let alone privately.

Not making a stand or taking a side, im a fan of all the performers in this years show. Just thought it was a relevant point in the consistency of the NFL and how "genuine" they are about "not standing for this type of behavior"
Can you specifically show me where Snoop, Dre, and Eminem have been outright racist in public or private? I am legitimately all ears.

Can you specifically show me where they have expressed anti-gay views in the last 10 years?

Saying some wild stuff in the 90's is a bit different to being caught out for using language like Gruden's as recently as 2 years ago. If Gruden had (lol) released a wild rap album in the early 90's that had some outdated views, I doubt he'd have lost his job. I would also imagine that the platforms of a rap artist who makes "art" (and therefore artistic statements, and all the leeway that comes with that) are a touch dissimilar to that of a TV personality, or an ostensible "Leader of Men".

At the very core of it, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Dre, Snoop, and Em are in any way derogatory to the idea of being black. In fact, I would say that they celebrate it openly - what is rap culture, if not a wholesale celebration of black counterculture? There's not a lot in common there as it pertains to a White Coach in charge of Black players AND Gay players being exposed for having jurassic-era thought patterns and views.

The inability to shift said views to reflect the cultural moment is what gets dinosaurs like Gruden put out to pasture. That's the reality. You don't have to love it, but on the other hand - the world doesn't have to platform that sh-t either. And it won't.

Adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.

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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby FantasyFreak » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:08 pm

ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:21 pm Heard something from an emailer on a podcast today that I felt was a good point.

I won't try and defend Gruden, but does anyone else find it interesting how the NFL reacts in the way they treat people like Gruden for stuff that the've said, yet this years half time show featuring Snoop, Em, and Dre who have all (especially Em lol) said way worse things publicly, let alone privately.

Not making a stand or taking a side, im a fan of all the performers in this years show. Just thought it was a relevant point in the consistency of the NFL and how "genuine" they are about "not standing for this type of behavior"
There is definitely a hypocritical element to it, but as Mild said, the scale is a bit different. In my opinion, the NFL is about diversity because they are trying, and have succeeded in drawing a larger demographic that way. There are a lot, and I mean a lot of female NFL fans, for instance. The NFL understands, (though I absolutely don't believe it's full sincerity for a second), that diversity means a larger pie. The more of an audience you cater to, the larger your potential profit. In the end, as with most things in the NFL and business in general, it all boils down to the all mighty dollar.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby ThunderTung » Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:30 pm

mild wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:59 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:21 pm Heard something from an emailer on a podcast today that I felt was a good point.

I won't try and defend Gruden, but does anyone else find it interesting how the NFL reacts in the way they treat people like Gruden for stuff that the've said, yet this years half time show featuring Snoop, Em, and Dre who have all (especially Em lol) said way worse things publicly, let alone privately.

Not making a stand or taking a side, im a fan of all the performers in this years show. Just thought it was a relevant point in the consistency of the NFL and how "genuine" they are about "not standing for this type of behavior"
Can you specifically show me where Snoop, Dre, and Eminem have been outright racist in public or private? I am legitimately all ears.

Can you specifically show me where they have expressed anti-gay views in the last 10 years?

Saying some wild stuff in the 90's is a bit different to being caught out for using language like Gruden's as recently as 2 years ago. If Gruden had (lol) released a wild rap album in the early 90's that had some outdated views, I doubt he'd have lost his job. I would also imagine that the platforms of a rap artist who makes "art" (and therefore artistic statements, and all the leeway that comes with that) are a touch dissimilar to that of a TV personality, or an ostensible "Leader of Men".

At the very core of it, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Dre, Snoop, and Em are in any way derogatory to the idea of being black. In fact, I would say that they celebrate it openly - what is rap culture, if not a wholesale celebration of black counterculture? There's not a lot in common there as it pertains to a White Coach in charge of Black players AND Gay players being exposed for having jurassic-era thought patterns and views.

The inability to shift said views to reflect the cultural moment is what gets dinosaurs like Gruden put out to pasture. That's the reality. You don't have to love it, but on the other hand - the world doesn't have to platform that sh-t either. And it won't.

Adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.
Definitely wasn't bringing that up as a result of any of those people being "anti-black" Your correct, both Dre and Snoop celebrate their race, while Em has expressed many times how much respect and appreciation he has for the culture. I was more referring to the homophobic remarks (which is the real reason he 'resigned'). I mean Em just a few years ago called Tyler the Creator the F word in one of his songs, and Snoop double down on his sexist lyrics earlier in his career.

Im not here to try and tear any of these artists down at all, and I think we all know that at the end of the day everything comes back down to profit. I was just pointing out the ingenuity of it all.

I'm actually in the belief that Mark Davis wanted out of his contract. If he wanted I think this could have all been swept under the rug. I find it hard to believe that no one else was caught in the crossfire, which imo is the real problem.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby FantasyFreak » Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:55 pm

ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:30 pm
mild wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:59 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:21 pm Heard something from an emailer on a podcast today that I felt was a good point.

I won't try and defend Gruden, but does anyone else find it interesting how the NFL reacts in the way they treat people like Gruden for stuff that the've said, yet this years half time show featuring Snoop, Em, and Dre who have all (especially Em lol) said way worse things publicly, let alone privately.

Not making a stand or taking a side, im a fan of all the performers in this years show. Just thought it was a relevant point in the consistency of the NFL and how "genuine" they are about "not standing for this type of behavior"
Can you specifically show me where Snoop, Dre, and Eminem have been outright racist in public or private? I am legitimately all ears.

Can you specifically show me where they have expressed anti-gay views in the last 10 years?

Saying some wild stuff in the 90's is a bit different to being caught out for using language like Gruden's as recently as 2 years ago. If Gruden had (lol) released a wild rap album in the early 90's that had some outdated views, I doubt he'd have lost his job. I would also imagine that the platforms of a rap artist who makes "art" (and therefore artistic statements, and all the leeway that comes with that) are a touch dissimilar to that of a TV personality, or an ostensible "Leader of Men".

At the very core of it, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Dre, Snoop, and Em are in any way derogatory to the idea of being black. In fact, I would say that they celebrate it openly - what is rap culture, if not a wholesale celebration of black counterculture? There's not a lot in common there as it pertains to a White Coach in charge of Black players AND Gay players being exposed for having jurassic-era thought patterns and views.

The inability to shift said views to reflect the cultural moment is what gets dinosaurs like Gruden put out to pasture. That's the reality. You don't have to love it, but on the other hand - the world doesn't have to platform that sh-t either. And it won't.

Adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.
I'm actually in the belief that Mark Davis wanted out of his contract. If he wanted I think this could have all been swept under the rug. I find it hard to believe that no one else was caught in the crossfire, which imo is the real problem.
I don't believe this is the case at all. Davis loved Gruden. There was zero indication he's soured on him, and according to insiders like Schefter, the NFL gave the Raiders the other e mails before they went public, and were not happy with how long it was taking for what the NFL probably wanted, to take place, which was Gruden being out. There is no chance that would have been swept under the rug with the comments he made about ol' Roger. Davis still seemed pissed off at the league at the way things went down. He made the point of saying they didn't stand for the types of thing said in the E mail, but I don't believe prior to the e-mails, Davis had any desire to be out of Gruden's contract, and I follow the Raiders very closely.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby ThunderTung » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:23 pm

FantasyFreak wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:55 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:30 pm
mild wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:59 pm

Can you specifically show me where Snoop, Dre, and Eminem have been outright racist in public or private? I am legitimately all ears.

Can you specifically show me where they have expressed anti-gay views in the last 10 years?

Saying some wild stuff in the 90's is a bit different to being caught out for using language like Gruden's as recently as 2 years ago. If Gruden had (lol) released a wild rap album in the early 90's that had some outdated views, I doubt he'd have lost his job. I would also imagine that the platforms of a rap artist who makes "art" (and therefore artistic statements, and all the leeway that comes with that) are a touch dissimilar to that of a TV personality, or an ostensible "Leader of Men".

At the very core of it, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Dre, Snoop, and Em are in any way derogatory to the idea of being black. In fact, I would say that they celebrate it openly - what is rap culture, if not a wholesale celebration of black counterculture? There's not a lot in common there as it pertains to a White Coach in charge of Black players AND Gay players being exposed for having jurassic-era thought patterns and views.

The inability to shift said views to reflect the cultural moment is what gets dinosaurs like Gruden put out to pasture. That's the reality. You don't have to love it, but on the other hand - the world doesn't have to platform that sh-t either. And it won't.

Adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.
I'm actually in the belief that Mark Davis wanted out of his contract. If he wanted I think this could have all been swept under the rug. I find it hard to believe that no one else was caught in the crossfire, which imo is the real problem.
I don't believe this is the case at all. Davis loved Gruden. There was zero indication he's soured on him, and according to insiders like Schefter, the NFL gave the Raiders the other e mails before they went public, and were not happy with how long it was taking for what the NFL probably wanted, to take place, which was Gruden being out. There is no chance that would have been swept under the rug with the comments he made about ol' Roger. Davis still seemed pissed off at the league at the way things went down. He made the point of saying they didn't stand for the types of thing said in the E mail, but I don't believe prior to the e-mails, Davis had any desire to be out of Gruden's contract, and I follow the Raiders very closely.
agree to disagree. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not a raider hater, don't even have anything against Davis (even if he was rude to a buddy of mine who ran into him in Vegas, funny story tho lol) But of course he is going to make that stand, he's Saving face for himself and his franchise, whether he knew about it or not any smart individual would do the same.

You could lead me to believe that pressure was put on Davis by the league after they saw what he said about Goodell, another reason why I think this got out. Im not dying on a hill or claiming fact. I just personally don't believe that out of all of those emails, Gruden was the only one who was talking like that. Even after it happened I think all of us were praying that anyone else caught in the crossfire wouldn't have any connection to our respective teams (Thank god Mr. Kraft prefers massage parlors over emailing slurs) and then It just came out that Gruden was it.

idk I just don't trust league operations to be impartial and forthcoming about everything, and that feeling extends heavily when were dealing with things that could set the NFL's PR firm on fire.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby FantasyFreak » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:09 am

ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:23 pm
FantasyFreak wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 9:55 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 8:30 pm

I'm actually in the belief that Mark Davis wanted out of his contract. If he wanted I think this could have all been swept under the rug. I find it hard to believe that no one else was caught in the crossfire, which imo is the real problem.
I don't believe this is the case at all. Davis loved Gruden. There was zero indication he's soured on him, and according to insiders like Schefter, the NFL gave the Raiders the other e mails before they went public, and were not happy with how long it was taking for what the NFL probably wanted, to take place, which was Gruden being out. There is no chance that would have been swept under the rug with the comments he made about ol' Roger. Davis still seemed pissed off at the league at the way things went down. He made the point of saying they didn't stand for the types of thing said in the E mail, but I don't believe prior to the e-mails, Davis had any desire to be out of Gruden's contract, and I follow the Raiders very closely.
agree to disagree. I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not a raider hater, don't even have anything against Davis (even if he was rude to a buddy of mine who ran into him in Vegas, funny story tho lol) But of course he is going to make that stand, he's Saving face for himself and his franchise, whether he knew about it or not any smart individual would do the same.

You could lead me to believe that pressure was put on Davis by the league after they saw what he said about Goodell, another reason why I think this got out. Im not dying on a hill or claiming fact. I just personally don't believe that out of all of those emails, Gruden was the only one who was talking like that. Even after it happened I think all of us were praying that anyone else caught in the crossfire wouldn't have any connection to our respective teams (Thank god Mr. Kraft prefers massage parlors over emailing slurs) and then It just came out that Gruden was it.

idk I just don't trust league operations to be impartial and forthcoming about everything, and that feeling extends heavily when were dealing with things that could set the NFL's PR firm on fire.
Yep fair enough, just no way he wanted to get rid of Gruden before all this happened IMO, he wasn't looking to get out of the contract before it all went wrong. That's all I'm saying. After the E mails got out, sure.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby Anteaters » Wed Oct 20, 2021 3:05 am

mild wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:59 pmCan you specifically show me where Snoop, Dre, and Eminem have been outright racist in public or private? I am legitimately all ears.

Can you specifically show me where they have expressed anti-gay views in the last 10 years?

Saying some wild stuff in the 90's is a bit different to being caught out for using language like Gruden's as recently as 2 years ago. If Gruden had (lol) released a wild rap album in the early 90's that had some outdated views, I doubt he'd have lost his job. I would also imagine that the platforms of a rap artist who makes "art" (and therefore artistic statements, and all the leeway that comes with that) are a touch dissimilar to that of a TV personality, or an ostensible "Leader of Men".

At the very core of it, I think you'd be hard pressed to say that Dre, Snoop, and Em are in any way derogatory to the idea of being black. In fact, I would say that they celebrate it openly - what is rap culture, if not a wholesale celebration of black counterculture? There's not a lot in common there as it pertains to a White Coach in charge of Black players AND Gay players being exposed for having jurassic-era thought patterns and views.

The inability to shift said views to reflect the cultural moment is what gets dinosaurs like Gruden put out to pasture. That's the reality. You don't have to love it, but on the other hand - the world doesn't have to platform that sh-t either. And it won't.

Adapt, or die. It's as simple as that.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby steelman » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:25 am

The MAC Machine wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:54 pm Billy Buck

Have you ever had someone tell you something with a "but" in between?

For example: "Yea I dont condone racism/homophobic/sexist remarks, but..."

anything after that but, as realistic and true as it may be, lends itself to comparison. Nobody here is talking about Desean Jackson or the wrongdoings of others. The topic is Gruden. That doesnt mean that others are perfect, that other wrongdoings dont exist or are less valid. But bringing those things into the fold in this conversation serves only the purpose of diminishing, or absolving Grudens wrongdoings - and that my friend is a bad look for you. I recommend just cutting out anything after that but.....just leave it at "I dont condone racism/homophobia/sexism" no ifs ands or buts. :thumbup:
Maybe it's not a bad thing to somewhat minimize what Gruden did. If that's what we're doing when making comparisons, then so be it. I personally stand by it.

Gruden said some unprofessional things in a private e-mail. We don't know whether he actually hates black/gay/women, etc. or if he was just being that typical alpha male who spouts off when talking with friends. Even if he literally meant everything he wrote, it's just still just words. That doesn't mean it's okay or that he should get to keep his job. In no way am I saying that.

But for god sakes, we have Desean Watson accused of sexually assaulting numerous women, and there's talk he's about to be traded, which implies to me that his new team plans on having him play.

The sticks and stones saying isn't meant to be taken literally, but there's a lot of truth to it. Gruden used words which he meant to keep private. Watson potentially sexually assaulted numerous women.

So you know what, if bringing up this comparison minimizes what Gruden did, then I'm perfectly okay with that, because when it comes to what is and isn't acceptable these days, society is completely backwards. It's all about appearance over substance. Profit is also a priority. A coach doesn't really increase revenues, star players do though.

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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby nathanq42 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:50 am

steelman wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:25 am
The MAC Machine wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:54 pm Billy Buck

Have you ever had someone tell you something with a "but" in between?

For example: "Yea I dont condone racism/homophobic/sexist remarks, but..."

anything after that but, as realistic and true as it may be, lends itself to comparison. Nobody here is talking about Desean Jackson or the wrongdoings of others. The topic is Gruden. That doesnt mean that others are perfect, that other wrongdoings dont exist or are less valid. But bringing those things into the fold in this conversation serves only the purpose of diminishing, or absolving Grudens wrongdoings - and that my friend is a bad look for you. I recommend just cutting out anything after that but.....just leave it at "I dont condone racism/homophobia/sexism" no ifs ands or buts. :thumbup:
Maybe it's not a bad thing to somewhat minimize what Gruden did. If that's what we're doing when making comparisons, then so be it. I personally stand by it.

Gruden said some unprofessional things in a private e-mail. We don't know whether he actually hates black/gay/women, etc. or if he was just being that typical alpha male who spouts off when talking with friends. Even if he literally meant everything he wrote, it's just still just words. That doesn't mean it's okay or that he should get to keep his job. In no way am I saying that.

But for god sakes, we have Desean Watson accused of sexually assaulting numerous women, and there's talk he's about to be traded, which implies to me that his new team plans on having him play.

The sticks and stones saying isn't meant to be taken literally, but there's a lot of truth to it. Gruden used words which he meant to keep private. Watson potentially sexually assaulted numerous women.

So you know what, if bringing up this comparison minimizes what Gruden did, then I'm perfectly okay with that, because when it comes to what is and isn't acceptable these days, society is completely backwards. It's all about appearance over substance. Profit is also a priority. A coach doesn't really increase revenues, star players do though.
Im not up to date with Watson's situation, but I feel like the whole innocent until proven guilty thing applies here. We know for a fact that Gruden said horrendous things to work colleagues (yes it was in private, but people are most apt to show their true colours behind closed doors), as far as I know Watson hasn't been proven guilty in any of his sexual assault allegations (again, haven't kept up with it in the slightest, but I reckon I would have heard about a guilty verdict). With that said, if a few guilty verdicts come through I highly doubt Watson will play in the league ever again (tbh I cant recall any player that was found guilty of even a single sexual assault playing again (iirc AB and Big Ben weren't found guilty, but correct me if I'm wrong on any accounts here))

And again, the wrong doings of others shouldn't excuse Gruden of his. Not to mention he chose to resign, whether it is on his own volition or if he was asked by the team's ownership doesn't matter, it's up to his employer whether or no they want to keep employing him, and assuming they did force Gruden's hand they made their choice, it isn't up to anyone else to dictate how someone is to run their business, if they want to employ some less than stellar characters and not others it's their choice in that matter, and they likely have weighed the expected costs and benefits.

The Bengals did the same with Joe Mixon knowing they would catch some heat for him smashing that *racist and belligerent* girl's face, but they decided that they could tolerate what he did, and the heat they would get from the public in order to reap the benefit of his talent on the football field.

The Raiders management didnt feel the same about Gruden, whether they: couldnt live with the fact that he was out and out using very racist/misogynistic/homophobic language in a private yet professional setting, they thought the public outrage would be too much for them to handle, his benefit to the team wasn't high enough to outweigh the costs of keeping him around, or a blend of all three. At the end of the day he made his bed and he must now lie in it.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby Shoreline Steamers » Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:03 am

nathanq42 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:50 am Im not up to date with Watson's situation, but I feel like the whole innocent until proven guilty thing applies here. We know for a fact that Gruden said horrendous things to work colleagues (yes it was in private, but people are most apt to show their true colours behind closed doors), as far as I know Watson hasn't been proven guilty in any of his sexual assault allegations (again, haven't kept up with it in the slightest, but I reckon I would have heard about a guilty verdict). With that said, if a few guilty verdicts come through I highly doubt Watson will play in the league ever again (tbh I cant recall any player that was found guilty of even a single sexual assault playing again (iirc AB and Big Ben weren't found guilty, but correct me if I'm wrong on any accounts here))

And again, the wrong doings of others shouldn't excuse Gruden of his. Not to mention he chose to resign, whether it is on his own volition or if he was asked by the team's ownership doesn't matter, it's up to his employer whether or no they want to keep employing him, and assuming they did force Gruden's hand they made their choice, it isn't up to anyone else to dictate how someone is to run their business, if they want to employ some less than stellar characters and not others it's their choice in that matter, and they likely have weighed the expected costs and benefits.

The Bengals did the same with Joe Mixon knowing they would catch some heat for him smashing that *racist and belligerent* girl's face, but they decided that they could tolerate what he did, and the heat they would get from the public in order to reap the benefit of his talent on the football field.

The Raiders management didnt feel the same about Gruden, whether they: couldnt live with the fact that he was out and out using very racist/misogynistic/homophobic language in a private yet professional setting, they thought the public outrage would be too much for them to handle, his benefit to the team wasn't high enough to outweigh the costs of keeping him around, or a blend of all three. At the end of the day he made his bed and he must now lie in it.
You admittedly aren't up to date on the Watson situation. But I don't think you're quite up to date on the Gruden situation either.

The league forwarded the Gruden e-mails to the Raiders on a Friday, and expected them to take action to remedy the situation (i.e. fire Gruden). Mark Davis did not want to do so. Gruden coached the team that weekend. After that, the league basically told him, "Fire John Gruden". The owner and coach met, and it was announced he was "resigning". Mark Davis very much wanted to keep his coach, but reluctantly did as the league asked.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby nathanq42 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:14 pm

Shoreline Steamers wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:03 am
nathanq42 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:50 am Im not up to date with Watson's situation, but I feel like the whole innocent until proven guilty thing applies here. We know for a fact that Gruden said horrendous things to work colleagues (yes it was in private, but people are most apt to show their true colours behind closed doors), as far as I know Watson hasn't been proven guilty in any of his sexual assault allegations (again, haven't kept up with it in the slightest, but I reckon I would have heard about a guilty verdict). With that said, if a few guilty verdicts come through I highly doubt Watson will play in the league ever again (tbh I cant recall any player that was found guilty of even a single sexual assault playing again (iirc AB and Big Ben weren't found guilty, but correct me if I'm wrong on any accounts here))

And again, the wrong doings of others shouldn't excuse Gruden of his. Not to mention he chose to resign, whether it is on his own volition or if he was asked by the team's ownership doesn't matter, it's up to his employer whether or no they want to keep employing him, and assuming they did force Gruden's hand they made their choice, it isn't up to anyone else to dictate how someone is to run their business, if they want to employ some less than stellar characters and not others it's their choice in that matter, and they likely have weighed the expected costs and benefits.

The Bengals did the same with Joe Mixon knowing they would catch some heat for him smashing that *racist and belligerent* girl's face, but they decided that they could tolerate what he did, and the heat they would get from the public in order to reap the benefit of his talent on the football field.

The Raiders management didnt feel the same about Gruden, whether they: couldnt live with the fact that he was out and out using very racist/misogynistic/homophobic language in a private yet professional setting, they thought the public outrage would be too much for them to handle, his benefit to the team wasn't high enough to outweigh the costs of keeping him around, or a blend of all three. At the end of the day he made his bed and he must now lie in it.
You admittedly aren't up to date on the Watson situation. But I don't think you're quite up to date on the Gruden situation either.

The league forwarded the Gruden e-mails to the Raiders on a Friday, and expected them to take action to remedy the situation (i.e. fire Gruden). Mark Davis did not want to do so. Gruden coached the team that weekend. After that, the league basically told him, "Fire John Gruden". The owner and coach met, and it was announced he was "resigning". Mark Davis very much wanted to keep his coach, but reluctantly did as the league asked.
Well colour me corrected! Thanks for the info. Not familiar with the League's org. structure, does the NFL/Goodell have the authority over teams/team owners to demand this? I guess another way to ask would be, are the team owners beholden/under the authority/directive of the league?

If the NFL is in a position to dictate to team owners what to do in certain situations a similar train of thought applies, just one rung up the ladder. If the team owners are not "below" the NFL/Goodell in the structure of the league, I think it's kind of shitty. If the Raiders want to employ Gruden and take the heat for it that is their prerogative.

I personally would have given Gruden the axe after reviewing contracts/legal ramifications, but it's not my call to make, but what is my call is to support the Raiders org/ the Davis family (which I haven't in the past because I dont particularly care for the Raiders, nor will I in the future in light of this new info (again thank you for enlightening me))
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby Jrblaha » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:16 pm

Re: Billy: Society will always be hypocritical, but upcoming trials for charges is not close to the same thing as convictions. And (most) players are not close to the same thing as (most) coaches. Gruden was actively trying to use his position of power, as a coach, to wrongly keep groups of people out of league. You may be trying to convey a different message than what I’m hearing, but your posts read like someone who doesn’t recognize the differences I wrote above. And I think Mac explains my other issue with your post pretty well, so I don’t have much to add to that
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby Anteaters » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:49 pm

nathanq42 wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:14 pmIf the NFL is in a position to dictate to team owners what to do in certain situations a similar train of thought applies, just one rung up the ladder. If the team owners are not "below" the NFL/Goodell in the structure of the league, I think it's kind of shitty. If the Raiders want to employ Gruden and take the heat for it that is their prerogative.
I think the NFL informed the Raiders that part of "taking the heat" for keeping Gruden would be massive fines for the team for "conduct detrimental to the league" or something similar.

The NBA removed an owner, Donald Sterling, for similar bigoted comments. If the NBA can remove an owner for that infraction, I'm sure the NFL can flex its power to remove a publicly bigoted Coach.
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Re: Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

Postby remedy29 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:51 pm

steelman wrote: Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:25 am
The MAC Machine wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:54 pm Billy Buck

Have you ever had someone tell you something with a "but" in between?

For example: "Yea I dont condone racism/homophobic/sexist remarks, but..."

anything after that but, as realistic and true as it may be, lends itself to comparison. Nobody here is talking about Desean Jackson or the wrongdoings of others. The topic is Gruden. That doesnt mean that others are perfect, that other wrongdoings dont exist or are less valid. But bringing those things into the fold in this conversation serves only the purpose of diminishing, or absolving Grudens wrongdoings - and that my friend is a bad look for you. I recommend just cutting out anything after that but.....just leave it at "I dont condone racism/homophobia/sexism" no ifs ands or buts. :thumbup:
Maybe it's not a bad thing to somewhat minimize what Gruden did. If that's what we're doing when making comparisons, then so be it. I personally stand by it.

Gruden said some unprofessional things in a private e-mail. We don't know whether he actually hates black/gay/women, etc. or if he was just being that typical alpha male who spouts off when talking with friends. Even if he literally meant everything he wrote, it's just still just words. That doesn't mean it's okay or that he should get to keep his job. In no way am I saying that.

But for god sakes, we have Desean Watson accused of sexually assaulting numerous women, and there's talk he's about to be traded, which implies to me that his new team plans on having him play.

The sticks and stones saying isn't meant to be taken literally, but there's a lot of truth to it. Gruden used words which he meant to keep private. Watson potentially sexually assaulted numerous women.

So you know what, if bringing up this comparison minimizes what Gruden did, then I'm perfectly okay with that, because when it comes to what is and isn't acceptable these days, society is completely backwards. It's all about appearance over substance. Profit is also a priority. A coach doesn't really increase revenues, star players do though.
To be perfectly fair to Watson, he intended to assault these women in private and not let it be known publicly.
How dare these women out him publicly.


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