Gruden Resigning as Raiders HC

[Shoreline Steamers]

I personally would have given Gruden the axe after reviewing contracts/legal ramifications, but it's not my call to make, but what is my call is to support the Raiders org/ the Davis family (which I haven't in the past because I dont particularly care for the Raiders, nor will I in the future in light of this new info (again thank you for enlightening me))

Hope I didn't come across as a jerk, as that wasn't my intention. As for the league structure part of this I'm really not sure about the ins-and-outs of all that. But I'd imagine it's similar to how the NBA forced Donald Sterling to sell the LA Clippers a few years back for making racist comments.

With the chatter about issues with the WFT under Daniel Snyder, I'm not sure how he's retaining ownership of the club. But who knows, maybe the investigation is ongoing there? Or the other owners wouldn't support a forced sale making it a moot point. Assuming the league has a similar mechanism in place.

[Anteaters]

To be perfectly fair to Watson, he intended to assault these women in private and not let it be known publicly.
How dare these women out him publicly.

X 10

[The MAC Machine]

Billy Buck

Have you ever had someone tell you something with a "but" in between?

For example: "Yea I dont condone racism/homophobic/sexist remarks, but..."

anything after that but, as realistic and true as it may be, lends itself to comparison. Nobody here is talking about Desean Jackson or the wrongdoings of others. The topic is Gruden. That doesnt mean that others are perfect, that other wrongdoings dont exist or are less valid. But bringing those things into the fold in this conversation serves only the purpose of diminishing, or absolving Grudens wrongdoings - and that my friend is a bad look for you. I recommend just cutting out anything after that but.....just leave it at "I dont condone racism/homophobia/sexism" no ifs ands or buts.

Maybe it's not a bad thing to somewhat minimize what Gruden did. If that's what we're doing when making comparisons, then so be it. I personally stand by it.

Gruden said some unprofessional things in a private e-mail. We don't know whether he actually hates black/gay/women, etc. or if he was just being that typical alpha male who spouts off when talking with friends.

Ok let me put it this way.....Im a cancer survivor. I know and understand how challenging of an experience that was for me. But it serves no one to compare my challenging experience to someone elses challenging experience - lets say, a sexual assault survivor, or car accident survivor.

Comparing Grudens wrongdoing does not absolve him of the wrongdoing, just like having a challenging experience doesnt make someone elses challenging experience more or less valid or challenging. The wrongdoing is relative to each person - I get that. But anyone trying to minimize this wrongdoing is not in touch with the pain points around identity issues as a whole. So you can say "we dont know if he actually hates black/gay/women etc" until you are blue in the face. The fact is the very usage of this language is hateful towards people in those demographics, regardless of intention. And to minimize, absolve, or normalize language that is harmful to those people misses the entire mark of creating safe spaces for people in the NFL workplace and our country.

I also want to say that you are right - nobody can "prove" how someone else feels. But that doesnt change how the words make others feel, and our knowledge of how language like this makes others feel. Gruden knew these things were hurtful...thats why they were private. So spare me this nebulous BS about "we dont know how he feels". We know that he understands that these words are harmful (because he tried to hide them) and we know that he said them anyway. That is enough. There is no need for comparison. There is no need for judgment. It is what it is, and instead of trying to minimize, absolve, or feel better about the words we need to be having a conversation about the responsibility one has as a leader in a multicultural environment.

[The MAC Machine]

To be perfectly fair to Watson, he intended to assault these women in private and not let it be known publicly.
How dare these women out him publicly.

X 10

Troll to the max This was good

[nathanq42]

I personally would have given Gruden the axe after reviewing contracts/legal ramifications, but it's not my call to make, but what is my call is to support the Raiders org/ the Davis family (which I haven't in the past because I dont particularly care for the Raiders, nor will I in the future in light of this new info (again thank you for enlightening me))

Hope I didn't come across as a jerk, as that wasn't my intention. As for the league structure part of this I'm really not sure about the ins-and-outs of all that. But I'd imagine it's similar to how the NBA forced Donald Sterling to sell the LA Clippers a few years back for making racist comments.

With the chatter about issues with the WFT under Daniel Snyder, I'm not sure how he's retaining ownership of the club. But who knows, maybe the investigation is ongoing there? Or the other owners wouldn't support a forced sale making it a moot point. Assuming the league has a similar mechanism in place.

Nonono my guy it's all good, I wasn't fully informed and you let me know what I was missing in a perfectly level-headed way. Sorry, I didn't mean to make you think I thought you were coming off as a jerk.

Yeah, I totally forgot about that whole Sterling thing... I guess it likely is in the NFL's power to dictate something like this to the Raiders and them having to bend the knee.

[steelman]

Ok let me put it this way.....Im a cancer survivor. I know and understand how challenging of an experience that was for me. But it serves no one to compare my challenging experience to someone elses challenging experience - lets say, a sexual assault survivor, or car accident survivor.

Comparing Grudens wrongdoing does not absolve him of the wrongdoing, just like having a challenging experience doesnt make someone elses challenging experience more or less valid or challenging. The wrongdoing is relative to each person - I get that. But anyone trying to minimize this wrongdoing is not in touch with the pain points around identity issues as a whole. So you can say "we dont know if he actually hates black/gay/women etc" until you are blue in the face. The fact is the very usage of this language is hateful towards people in those demographics, regardless of intention. And to minimize, absolve, or normalize language that is harmful to those people misses the entire mark of creating safe spaces for people in the NFL workplace and our country.

I also want to say that you are right - nobody can "prove" how someone else feels. But that doesnt change how the words make others feel, and our knowledge of how language like this makes others feel. Gruden knew these things were hurtful...thats why they were private. So spare me this nebulous BS about "we dont know how he feels". We know that he understands that these words are harmful (because he tried to hide them) and we know that he said them anyway. That is enough. There is no need for comparison. There is no need for judgment. It is what it is, and instead of trying to minimize, absolve, or feel better about the words we need to be having a conversation about the responsibility one has as a leader in a multicultural environment.

I do agree that it's not really relevant whether he believes what he wrote or if was just banter. Once released publicly, the effect is the same. No argument there. I guess what I'm truly getting at is I think we pay way too much attention to the harm that words can do, at least in comparison to our focus on actions. That's not to say that words can't hurt. Of course they can. Emotional abuse in a relationship is arguably just as bad as physical abuse. I just think we've gone overboard and lost focus a little bit. Words do hurt and people that cause harm need to face repercussions. Gruden did, and in no way am I saying he should have got to keep his job.

I'm finding our entire focus is on safe places from words. Yet we have no shortage of shitty human beings out there doing terrible things, but because they are using forbidden words, society seems to mostly look the other way.

So yeah, I can't help with the comparisons and I guess I am trying to minimize Gruden's actions a little bit, although it's mostly just due to my feelings of words vs actions. I don't like the direction society is heading. While we don't need to tolerate hate speech, we do need to toughen up a little bit. There will always be hurtful words out there. There's arguably no such thing as a safe place, and do we even have the right to be safe from having our feelings hurt?

[Anteaters]

So yeah, I can't help with the comparisons and I guess I am trying to minimize Gruden's actions a little bit, although it's mostly just due to my feelings of words vs actions. I don't like the direction society is heading. While we don't need to tolerate hate speech, we do need to toughen up a little bit. There will always be hurtful words out there. There's arguably no such thing as a safe place, and do we even have the right to be safe from having our feelings hurt?

Gruden's words were not just words. They were a window into how his mind works, and how he makes decisions.

Gruden was a major decision maker in his organization. He was practically in charge of every hiring decision made by the team, or via his deep personal and professional connection with the owner he had incredible influence over who got hired and fired.

Once his words revealed him to be a bigot, it is fair to assume his deeply held bigoted beliefs influenced his hiring decisions. It's not surprising that none of the higher positions on his coaching staff were held by minorities. And never have been as far as I have researched. Compare that to someone like Pete Carroll, who has three minorities in the 6 highest coordinator positions. Or Belichick who regularly advances minorities to his top coordinator positions.

Gruden has never had a minority QB start a game for him, except for one early in TB when he inherited Shaun King who was the 3rd string QB and was forced into a start because of injuries. And since he got rid of King after that season, in a total of 15 seasons Gruden has never had another minority QB get on the field - not even on his roster until the ghost of Mariotta arrived in LV last season. I think you'd have to search far and wide to find another contemporary NFL head coach with 15 years of experience with a similar track record with minority QBs.

And that's just two windows into how his bigotry has possibly affected his management decisions. Who knows what more research would reveal? Given Gruden's racist comments about D Smith, it would be interesting to see how Gruden reacted to players who were represented by minority agents? How were women hired and promoted in his workplaces?

This isn't only about Gruden's words. His words reflect his beliefs, and his beliefs guide his actions. You can't separate the words from his hiring behavior. It's about how his words affect hiring decisions - both his own and others'. Other coaches/GMs/owners across the league who may have been influenced by Gruden's blatant bigotry to make similar bigoted hiring decisions. At a minimum, maybe Gruden influenced Bruce Allen's hiring decisions?

[kadun2]

Ok let me put it this way.....Im a cancer survivor. I know and understand how challenging of an experience that was for me. But it serves no one to compare my challenging experience to someone elses challenging experience - lets say, a sexual assault survivor, or car accident survivor.

Comparing Grudens wrongdoing does not absolve him of the wrongdoing, just like having a challenging experience doesnt make someone elses challenging experience more or less valid or challenging. The wrongdoing is relative to each person - I get that. But anyone trying to minimize this wrongdoing is not in touch with the pain points around identity issues as a whole. So you can say "we dont know if he actually hates black/gay/women etc" until you are blue in the face. The fact is the very usage of this language is hateful towards people in those demographics, regardless of intention. And to minimize, absolve, or normalize language that is harmful to those people misses the entire mark of creating safe spaces for people in the NFL workplace and our country.

I also want to say that you are right - nobody can "prove" how someone else feels. But that doesnt change how the words make others feel, and our knowledge of how language like this makes others feel. Gruden knew these things were hurtful...thats why they were private. So spare me this nebulous BS about "we dont know how he feels". We know that he understands that these words are harmful (because he tried to hide them) and we know that he said them anyway. That is enough. There is no need for comparison. There is no need for judgment. It is what it is, and instead of trying to minimize, absolve, or feel better about the words we need to be having a conversation about the responsibility one has as a leader in a multicultural environment.

I do agree that it's not really relevant whether he believes what he wrote or if was just banter. Once released publicly, the effect is the same. No argument there. I guess what I'm truly getting at is I think we pay way too much attention to the harm that words can do, at least in comparison to our focus on actions. That's not to say that words can't hurt. Of course they can. Emotional abuse in a relationship is arguably just as bad as physical abuse. I just think we've gone overboard and lost focus a little bit. Words do hurt and people that cause harm need to face repercussions. Gruden did, and in no way am I saying he should have got to keep his job.

I'm finding our entire focus is on safe places from words. Yet we have no shortage of shitty human beings out there doing terrible things, but because they are using forbidden words, society seems to mostly look the other way.

So yeah, I can't help with the comparisons and I guess I am trying to minimize Gruden's actions a little bit, although it's mostly just due to my feelings of words vs actions. I don't like the direction society is heading. While we don't need to tolerate hate speech, we do need to toughen up a little bit. There will always be hurtful words out there. There's arguably no such thing as a safe place, and do we even have the right to be safe from having our feelings hurt?

Well said. I don’t think comparing Gruden’s words to others is as relevant as comparing people’s reactions to this and similar incidents.

[steelman]

So yeah, I can't help with the comparisons and I guess I am trying to minimize Gruden's actions a little bit, although it's mostly just due to my feelings of words vs actions. I don't like the direction society is heading. While we don't need to tolerate hate speech, we do need to toughen up a little bit. There will always be hurtful words out there. There's arguably no such thing as a safe place, and do we even have the right to be safe from having our feelings hurt?

Gruden's words were not just words. They were a window into how his mind works, and how he makes decisions.

Gruden was a major decision maker in his organization. He was practically in charge of every hiring decision made by the team, or via his deep personal and professional connection with the owner he had incredible influence over who got hired and fired.

Once his words revealed him to be a bigot, it is fair to assume his deeply held bigoted beliefs influenced his hiring decisions. It's not surprising that none of the higher positions on his coaching staff were held by minorities. And never have been as far as I have researched. Compare that to someone like Pete Carroll, who has three minorities in the 6 highest coordinator positions. Or Belichick who regularly advances minorities to his top coordinator positions.

Gruden has never had a minority QB start a game for him, except for one early in TB when he inherited Shaun King who was the 3rd string QB and was forced into a start because of injuries. And since he got rid of King after that season, in a total of 15 seasons Gruden has never had another minority QB get on the field - not even on his roster until the ghost of Mariotta arrived in LV last season. I think you'd have to search far and wide to find another contemporary NFL head coach with 15 years of experience with a similar track record with minority QBs.

And that's just two windows into how his bigotry has possibly affected his management decisions. Who knows what more research would reveal? Given Gruden's racist comments about D Smith, it would be interesting to see how Gruden reacted to players who were represented by minority agents? How were women hired and promoted in his workplaces?

This isn't only about Gruden's words. His words reflect his beliefs, and his beliefs guide his actions. You can't separate the words from his hiring behavior. It's about how his words affect hiring decisions - both his own and others'.

That's a fair point and I agree with everything you wrote. I guess I'm using Gruden as more of a platform to discuss my general feelings of our reactions to words these days. I just think it's gone too far. But Gruden perhaps is not a good example

[The MAC Machine]

So yeah, I can't help with the comparisons and I guess I am trying to minimize Gruden's actions a little bit, although it's mostly just due to my feelings of words vs actions. I don't like the direction society is heading. While we don't need to tolerate hate speech, we do need to toughen up a little bit. There will always be hurtful words out there. There's arguably no such thing as a safe place, and do we even have the right to be safe from having our feelings hurt?

Gruden's words were not just words. They were a window into how his mind works, and how he makes decisions.

Gruden was a major decision maker in his organization. He was practically in charge of every hiring decision made by the team, or via his deep personal and professional connection with the owner he had incredible influence over who got hired and fired.

Once his words revealed him to be a bigot, it is fair to assume his deeply held bigoted beliefs influenced his hiring decisions. It's not surprising that none of the higher positions on his coaching staff were held by minorities. And never have been as far as I have researched. Compare that to someone like Pete Carroll, who has three minorities in the 6 highest coordinator positions. Or Belichick who regularly advances minorities to his top coordinator positions.

Gruden has never had a minority QB start a game for him, except for one early in TB when he inherited Shaun King who was the 3rd string QB and was forced into a start because of injuries. And since he got rid of King after that season, in a total of 15 seasons Gruden has never had another minority QB get on the field - not even on his roster until the ghost of Mariotta arrived in LV last season. I think you'd have to search far and wide to find another contemporary NFL head coach with 15 years of experience with a similar track record with minority QBs.

And that's just two windows into how his bigotry has possibly affected his management decisions. Who knows what more research would reveal? Given Gruden's racist comments about D Smith, it would be interesting to see how Gruden reacted to players who were represented by minority agents? How were women hired and promoted in his workplaces?

This isn't only about Gruden's words. His words reflect his beliefs, and his beliefs guide his actions. You can't separate the words from his hiring behavior. It's about how his words affect hiring decisions - both his own and others'.

That's a fair point and I agree with everything you wrote. I guess I'm using Gruden as more of a platform to discuss my general feelings of our reactions to words these days. I just think it's gone too far. But Gruden perhaps is not a good example

I do understand that. But yea I dont think Gruden is a good example. Its not like he called someone a butthead, was making a wisecrack about someones haircut, or was trash talking another coach and they got butthurt about it. When it comes to discriminatory language the concern is deeper than the words. The concern is how will/do the beliefs and feelings that these words reflect impact people? Like Anteaters said, we cant really separate the two. But people who have these beliefs tend to convince people that you can. Thats what gaslighting is. To try and manipulate people into questioning their sanity - which in this case is believing that saying something known to be offensive is the fault of the offended, but then behind the scenes not operating with integrity in terms of equal opportunity.

Dont avoid peaking behind the curtain because you paid tickets for the show. I just made that up and not sure if that makes sense but Ima roll with it.

[Cameron Giles]

Heard something from an emailer on a podcast today that I felt was a good point.

I won't try and defend Gruden, but does anyone else find it interesting how the NFL reacts in the way they treat people like Gruden for stuff that the've said, yet this years half time show featuring Snoop, Em, and Dre who have all (especially Em lol) said way worse things publicly, let alone privately.

Not making a stand or taking a side, im a fan of all the performers in this years show. Just thought it was a relevant point in the consistency of the NFL and how "genuine" they are about "not standing for this type of behavior"

?

Snoop Dogg and Eminem aren't executives in the NFL.

Surely you understand how problematic it is for two people who had power in the NFL (a league that is over 70% black) to hire and fire people to be making racist and homophobic remarks with each other in their organization accounts.

[FantasyFreak]

Any way we can swing this conversation back to the football impact? The last bunch of pages are more for the off topic forum IMO. Not trying to be a mod, just think since it's a football dynasty site, we should attempt to swing it back to the football impact. Just my 2 cents.

I am curious to see how much more aggressive the Raiders offense will be sans Gruden. Last week, I like Olson's play calling, and he has been Carr's OC in the past. Have to think Carr will have a lot more control now. He always had the ability to change the play pre-snap, but game planning in general, I think may be different moving forward.

[The MAC Machine]

Im excited for Josh Jacobs, personally.

[FantasyFreak]

Im excited for Josh Jacobs, personally.

I just wish the OL would block better. He's had zero room. Almost took that screen to the house last week. Great set up, and he was gone had it not been for his own OL falling down in front of him.

[nathanq42]

Im excited for Josh Jacobs, personally.

I just want to see him get some damn targets! Yes we get it, he is a big tough kid with solid speed. I would like to see him running routes and getting space to work