DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby nathanq42 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:40 am

but they got a second round pick

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Space Cowboy » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:44 am

Zacsby wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:26 am Hopkins lost a step? Hes 28. His game has never really been about having a step anyway. Sad for Deshaun, excited to see what they'll draw up for him in Arizona
He’s essentially the new Fitzgerald. Ironic he’s in zona now.

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Ice » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:57 am

Looking at it from an NFL perspective. The Patriots have been winning SB's for years with crap WR's. A better debate is offensive system vs teams winning with Plug and play WR's or plug and play RB's IMO.

System matters in the NFL. Hopkins is a good WR getting a little long in the tooth that will be demanding a huge contract. Fuller, while an injury risk is a significant deeper threat. The Texans do need to address their possession WR in the draft.

Hopkins looks to me like he is going to be more of a J. Landry type going forward. Hopkins YPC dropped to more of a slot type WR last year. The line did play a small role IMO but they should be better this year and this team really wants to run it more and will throw more to the RB's IMO.

Don't see O'Brien going anywhere. He has had one season with a losing record 4-12 (Watson's rookie year) and is 21-11 the last 2 years. He has 4 division titles in the last 6 years I think.

Obviously, the Texans want a title but that is been pretty tough given the Patriots success and last year with KC. This coach is a BB clone and we all know BB gets of players a year early often. Not saying he will be successful in this case but once one really looks at this it really isn't all that surprising.

Obviously the Fantasy community has to hate this because the odds Hopkins has the same level of success in AZ is an unknown but usually production falls with these type of deals.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:28 am

Ice wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:57 am Looking at it from an NFL perspective. The Patriots have been winning SB's for years with crap WR's. A better debate is offensive system vs teams winning with Plug and play WR's or plug and play RB's IMO.

System matters in the NFL. Hopkins is a good WR getting a little long in the tooth that will be demanding a huge contract. Fuller, while an injury risk is a significant deeper threat. The Texans do need to address their possession WR in the draft.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Brady's played with some great pass catchers: Moss, Gronk, Welker, Edelman. Sure, you can talk about system, but the Patriots have always had very talented teams on both sides of the ball...until now at least.

System is important, but New England is really the only team that's been able to consistently win SB's with the same system. Houston doesn't look like they have a championship-caliber system. So, when you don't have that, I think high-level talent is even more important to elevate a team.

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Ice » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:24 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:28 am
Ice wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:57 am Looking at it from an NFL perspective. The Patriots have been winning SB's for years with crap WR's. A better debate is offensive system vs teams winning with Plug and play WR's or plug and play RB's IMO.

System matters in the NFL. Hopkins is a good WR getting a little long in the tooth that will be demanding a huge contract. Fuller, while an injury risk is a significant deeper threat. The Texans do need to address their possession WR in the draft.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Brady's played with some great pass catchers: Moss, Gronk, Welker, Edelman. Sure, you can talk about system, but the Patriots have always had very talented teams on both sides of the ball...until now at least.

System is important, but New England is really the only team that's been able to consistently win SB's with the same system. Houston doesn't look like they have a championship-caliber system. So, when you don't have that, I think high-level talent is even more important to elevate a team.
Houston runs almost the exact same basic system as the Patriots. They have a superior young QB, have been building the O Line up the last 1.5 years to better run the ball, and attempt to play more ball control offense. They strive for a top 10 defense and solid ST. Obviously they haven't been as successful as the Pats but no one has been that good.

Moss and Welker were eons ago. Edleman is a slot type that gets ton of targets but probably has more drops than any WR over the last several years. Good but not elite.

Gronk was great but didn't even play in one of those SB if memory servers.

2 of 3 phases for the Pats every year and great QB and coaching are the primary reasons for success.

I get everyone loves to blame the coach of the Texans but the record with Watson has been really good the last 2 years and they are going to have to pay him 40 million plus real soon. That and building a line to protect him is the smart play and Hopkins is/was secondary to that goal. BTW Cobb was very good out of the slot and out wide for Dallas last year. Career best 15.1 YPC. Not Hopkins for sure overall but not bad at all not too mention plus about 4 YPC per catch.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby honcho55 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:14 pm

I personally find it difficult to determine, when it comes to the Pats, what’s been integral to their success vs what’s more of a byproduct. Did they not invest at WR because that’s the way they value that position in general, or is it because it was a luxury they could afford, due to having what I deem as the best coach in NFL history and a top 3 QB ever. I don’t pretend to know, honestly. I do think the truth is somewhere in between, though, as is true with most things.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:37 pm

Ice wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:24 am Houston runs almost the exact same basic system as the Patriots. They have a superior young QB, have been building the O Line up the last 1.5 years to better run the ball, and attempt to play more ball control offense. They strive for a top 10 defense and solid ST. Obviously they haven't been as successful as the Pats but no one has been that good.

Moss and Welker were eons ago. Edleman is a slot type that gets ton of targets but probably has more drops than any WR over the last several years. Good but not elite.

Gronk was great but didn't even play in one of those SB if memory servers.

2 of 3 phases for the Pats every year and great QB and coaching are the primary reasons for success.

I get everyone loves to blame the coach of the Texans but the record with Watson has been really good the last 2 years and they are going to have to pay him 40 million plus real soon. That and building a line to protect him is the smart play and Hopkins is/was secondary to that goal. BTW Cobb was very good out of the slot and out wide for Dallas last year. Career best 15.1 YPC. Not Hopkins for sure overall but not bad at all not too mention plus about 4 YPC per catch.
The main problems:

1. Houston essentially traded Hopkins to acquire a 2nd round pick and an aging RB. This is awful value.
2. Hopkins isn't just a regular WR; he's an elite WR, who makes the life of your franchise QB a lot easier. Houston's offense is going to be much easier to scout without Hopkins.

I don't trust anything that tries to emulate NE's system, because it simply doesn't have the obvious requirements (BB, Brady, proven champion culture/structure). O'Brien just isn't that good of a coach and he's proving to be an awful GM.

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Ice » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:16 pm

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:37 pm
Ice wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:24 am Houston runs almost the exact same basic system as the Patriots. They have a superior young QB, have been building the O Line up the last 1.5 years to better run the ball, and attempt to play more ball control offense. They strive for a top 10 defense and solid ST. Obviously they haven't been as successful as the Pats but no one has been that good.

Moss and Welker were eons ago. Edleman is a slot type that gets ton of targets but probably has more drops than any WR over the last several years. Good but not elite.

Gronk was great but didn't even play in one of those SB if memory servers.

2 of 3 phases for the Pats every year and great QB and coaching are the primary reasons for success.

I get everyone loves to blame the coach of the Texans but the record with Watson has been really good the last 2 years and they are going to have to pay him 40 million plus real soon. That and building a line to protect him is the smart play and Hopkins is/was secondary to that goal. BTW Cobb was very good out of the slot and out wide for Dallas last year. Career best 15.1 YPC. Not Hopkins for sure overall but not bad at all not too mention plus about 4 YPC per catch.
The main problems:

1. Houston essentially traded Hopkins to acquire a 2nd round pick and an aging RB. This is awful value.
2. Hopkins isn't just a regular WR; he's an elite WR, who makes the life of your franchise QB a lot easier. Houston's offense is going to be much easier to scout without Hopkins.

I don't trust anything that tries to emulate NE's system, because it simply doesn't have the obvious requirements (BB, Brady, proven champion culture/structure). O'Brien just isn't that good of a coach and he's proving to be an awful GM.
Yet Odell went to the Browns with Landry and a great running game and it didn't matter. Before that he left the Giants and no major negative impact.

Not saying he is a good coach or a GM but the reality is they are winning. He was a huge advocate of Watson. Hopkins has been a very good WR no question about it and maybe it will turn out like the Pats giving a 4th rounder for the great Randy Moss but people are making assumptions as fact. No one knows who they will get for that 2nd rounder or if the RB has a rebirth like Drake did is AZ or Williams did in KC or even Hyde did for the Texans last season.

What is known is Hopkins isn't going to count 20 million against their cap. The Texans don't seem overly concerned how other teams will scout them.

Time will tell for sure.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby nathanq42 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:23 pm

Ice wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:16 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:37 pm
Ice wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:24 am Houston runs almost the exact same basic system as the Patriots. They have a superior young QB, have been building the O Line up the last 1.5 years to better run the ball, and attempt to play more ball control offense. They strive for a top 10 defense and solid ST. Obviously they haven't been as successful as the Pats but no one has been that good.

Moss and Welker were eons ago. Edleman is a slot type that gets ton of targets but probably has more drops than any WR over the last several years. Good but not elite.

Gronk was great but didn't even play in one of those SB if memory servers.

2 of 3 phases for the Pats every year and great QB and coaching are the primary reasons for success.

I get everyone loves to blame the coach of the Texans but the record with Watson has been really good the last 2 years and they are going to have to pay him 40 million plus real soon. That and building a line to protect him is the smart play and Hopkins is/was secondary to that goal. BTW Cobb was very good out of the slot and out wide for Dallas last year. Career best 15.1 YPC. Not Hopkins for sure overall but not bad at all not too mention plus about 4 YPC per catch.
The main problems:

1. Houston essentially traded Hopkins to acquire a 2nd round pick and an aging RB. This is awful value.
2. Hopkins isn't just a regular WR; he's an elite WR, who makes the life of your franchise QB a lot easier. Houston's offense is going to be much easier to scout without Hopkins.

I don't trust anything that tries to emulate NE's system, because it simply doesn't have the obvious requirements (BB, Brady, proven champion culture/structure). O'Brien just isn't that good of a coach and he's proving to be an awful GM.
Yet Odell went to the Browns with Landry and a great running game and it didn't matter. Before that he left the Giants and no major negative impact.

Not saying he is a good coach or a GM but the reality is they are winning. He was a huge advocate of Watson. Hopkins has been a very good WR no question about it and maybe it will turn out like the Pats giving a 4th rounder for the great Randy Moss but people are making assumptions as fact. No one knows who they will get for that 2nd rounder or if the RB has a rebirth like Drake did is AZ or Williams did in KC or even Hyde did for the Texans last season.

What is known is Hopkins isn't going to count 20 million against their cap. The Texans don't seem overly concerned how other teams will scout them.

Time will tell for sure.
They could have traded for 2 sixth round picks and ended up with Brady and AB. Doesn't mean it's good value for Hopkins
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby murphysxm » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:31 am

I am truly baffled by anyone defending BOB. Was trading Hopkins the right decision for cap reasons? Maybe, but to me it wasn't you don't let players like Hopkins out the door. My bigger issue is the return on the investment BOB got. He just traded the best WR in the history of their franchise (yes there is an Andre Johnson arguement) for a bad RB contract who has not played well in 2+ years and a 2nd round pick. Bad, bad, bad
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby dynastyninja » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:52 am

I definitely won't defend BOB, but I don't think it's nearly as bad as the general consensus. Hopkins wants a fat contract and they clearly didn't want to pay it. If DJ returns to form, he can help them out a lot. If not, they can cut him and have the extra cap space. Plus they got a 2nd in return.

Is all of that enough for Hopkins? Probably not, but I understand why they moved him.

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Ice » Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:49 am

murphysxm wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:31 am I am truly baffled by anyone defending BOB. Was trading Hopkins the right decision for cap reasons? Maybe, but to me it wasn't you don't let players like Hopkins out the door. My bigger issue is the return on the investment BOB got. He just traded the best WR in the history of their franchise (yes there is an Andre Johnson arguement) for a bad RB contract who has not played well in 2+ years and a 2nd round pick. Bad, bad, bad
Its not so much defending Bob. My point is fantasy football players try to put fantasy value on players.

2nd round picks in the real NFL are worth a ton. 20 Million dollar WR's are a luxury.
Godwin, a 3rd rounder, had a contract that was 4 years at just under 3.3 Million in total. That 2nd will cost a bit more but you get my point.

Surprised so many seem to think the Texans talked to just one team and made a trade.....His value to the league simply isn't what many think. That doesn't mean he is not really good but his value as possession type wasn't such that 31 teams were lining up to provide 1st round assets for him. The Texans certainly didn't want to give him a 3rd contract.

This may have been a dumb move but my guess is it may not be viewed that way long term.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby ericanadian » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:22 am

Ice wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 6:49 am
murphysxm wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:31 am I am truly baffled by anyone defending BOB. Was trading Hopkins the right decision for cap reasons? Maybe, but to me it wasn't you don't let players like Hopkins out the door. My bigger issue is the return on the investment BOB got. He just traded the best WR in the history of their franchise (yes there is an Andre Johnson arguement) for a bad RB contract who has not played well in 2+ years and a 2nd round pick. Bad, bad, bad
Its not so much defending Bob. My point is fantasy football players try to put fantasy value on players.

2nd round picks in the real NFL are worth a ton. 20 Million dollar WR's are a luxury.
Godwin, a 3rd rounder, had a contract that was 4 years at just under 3.3 Million in total. That 2nd will cost a bit more but you get my point.

Surprised so many seem to think the Texans talked to just one team and made a trade.....His value to the league simply isn't what many think. That doesn't mean he is not really good but his value as possession type wasn't such that 31 teams were lining up to provide 1st round assets for him. The Texans certainly didn't want to give him a 3rd contract.

This may have been a dumb move but my guess is it may not be viewed that way long term.
Unless Hopkins implodes and turns out to actually be a Hernandez type, this is a terrible move. The Texans have made several moves that have left the majority of analysts scratching their heads, so I’m not actually sure that BOB isn’t just talking to one team and pulling the trigger. This is no different than Matt Millen or Al Davis making bad deals. Not everyone is good at their job simply by virtue of being in the NFL. BOB is not a GM and it is abundantly clear that he’s not a GM. Even if he wins, is that because he’s making the right decisions? Rodgers and Manning were able to carry their teams to Superbowls. Is it completely unbelievable that Watson could consistently get his team to limp into the playoffs in a bad division?
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Ice » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:00 am

The AFC South is hardly a bad division. Two teams made the playoffs last year and both won playoff games taking down the AFC East.

I can provide countless really good to great WR types like Julio that have never won a SB. I get they are all valuable.

I am not even going to go there regarding Hopkins off the field.. That could certainly play a role in the Texans decision and probably did but he is also entering his 8th season and turns 28 in June his YPC has dropped 3 straight years and he wants a new contract even though the Texans signed him to an 81,000,000 dollar contract that was front loaded with 49 Mill in guarantees. The Texans had an out with no cap hit this year so they took it.

Further, the savings freed up to take on the one year of DJ which is offset some by what the team would have paid Hyde and/or Miller to a large degree. The asset they wanted was a high 2nd round pick far more than tying up a 100 million on a 3rd contract for a WR getting a little older daily.

If he is so terrible as a GM what does that say about the other 30 GM's that could have gotten him at the prices everyone is so upset about. I guess the GM of the Cards is the smartest guy in football.

Perfect, probably not but this team must take care of the O Line and the QB and the money will be allocated to those positions in the near term.

The Texans drafted Hopkins in the late 1st in 2013; Used him extensively and then traded him for a pick 13 spots from where they originally picked him.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby maxhyde » Tue Mar 24, 2020 10:54 am

NFL trades are almost ALWAYS about the money and HOU couldn't afford to pay Nuk, Tunsil and Watson. Pretty simple and more simple when you consider he may not have reported without a new deal. Then HOU would have struggled to get a 2nd if he is holding out. You can bet he is looking for Julio money which is almost double his current deal

It's a football trade not a fantasy trade ffs. We need to stop giving fantasy points any input on player value in the real world.
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