DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby FantasyFreak » Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:49 pm

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:44 pm
pvillebiker wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:56 am Moving D-Hop screams out to me that the Texans do not want to pay him next re-up. Or can't with Watson's payday looming. Feels similar to the Pats moving Cooks after only 1 year - they simply didn't want to pay him what he would inevitably command the next year for the value they thought they'd get. They were correct.

But David freaking Johnson is all the Texans got back? Don't they know he's done. LOL Will be fascinating to see if he has a Carlos Hyde-like revival in H-town. I wouldn't bet on it though!

O'Brien learning on the job how to be a GM?
This appears to be what happened from the reports that are coming in. Hopkins wanted to re-do his deal, the Texans said no, and they traded him to a team that will. If Hopkins gets his deal reworked, then it would increase his salary starting next season. So, while Johnson and Hopkins make similar money this year at the moment, it's kind of misleading.

Either way, the Texans got taken to the cleaners. You mentioned Brandin Cooks. The Saints AND Patriots got first round picks for him. The Texans essentially only got a 2nd.
An early 2nd and DJ. It really depends if DJ has anything left, or it will be a 2nd and that's it. With the WR depth in this class, that early 2nd is as good as a late first in other years if they are addressing that specific position, IMO. I don't think they would have got a first, knowing Hopkins was going to hold out for more money at some point, but who knows.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby ericanadian » Mon Mar 16, 2020 5:51 pm

FantasyFreak wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:12 pm
ericanadian wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:11 pm
FantasyFreak wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:40 pm

Not talking about Fantasy here. Talking real football. His ADOT and YPR, and the way he couldn't make plays down the field nearly as much, meant they were not inclined to give him the raise he'd be looking for when they need to sign Watson and a tackle they paid 2 plus firsts for. Catching a ton of 8 yard passes may be good for Fantasy, but it's not what a team who needs to sign their franchise QB and LT are going to want for 19 million a year.
And they’re paying a running back, who’s specialty is receiving, ten million a year when they already have Duke Johnson on the roster... Even financially this is questionable.
Not really, because DJ is only 1 more year of a big hit. Hopkins has 3 years left, and was looking for an upgrade on the contract. With Watson and Tunsel coming up, it makes sense.
They still owe DJ another 9 next year, which is still high for a running back that is arguably redundant with Duke already there. Hopkins was making $13M, which was well below market. Even if you have to pay him market, how is that worse than paying above market for a redundant RB?
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby kmbryant09 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 am

FantasyFreak wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:49 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:44 pm
pvillebiker wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:56 am Moving D-Hop screams out to me that the Texans do not want to pay him next re-up. Or can't with Watson's payday looming. Feels similar to the Pats moving Cooks after only 1 year - they simply didn't want to pay him what he would inevitably command the next year for the value they thought they'd get. They were correct.

But David freaking Johnson is all the Texans got back? Don't they know he's done. LOL Will be fascinating to see if he has a Carlos Hyde-like revival in H-town. I wouldn't bet on it though!

O'Brien learning on the job how to be a GM?
This appears to be what happened from the reports that are coming in. Hopkins wanted to re-do his deal, the Texans said no, and they traded him to a team that will. If Hopkins gets his deal reworked, then it would increase his salary starting next season. So, while Johnson and Hopkins make similar money this year at the moment, it's kind of misleading.

Either way, the Texans got taken to the cleaners. You mentioned Brandin Cooks. The Saints AND Patriots got first round picks for him. The Texans essentially only got a 2nd.
An early 2nd and DJ. It really depends if DJ has anything left, or it will be a 2nd and that's it. With the WR depth in this class, that early 2nd is as good as a late first in other years if they are addressing that specific position, IMO. I don't think they would have got a first, knowing Hopkins was going to hold out for more money at some point, but who knows.
Even as a DJ owner, there's absolutely zero reason why any competent NFL evaluator should look at DJ and his current contract as an asset.

He's owed a huge amount of money this year, has not been a difference maker in the past few years, and has battled injuries (and is 28). If you want to argue that he's still a plus in the passing game (and you'd be right), Houston of all teams should not value that because they have Duke Johnson already on their team!

Maybe O'Brien and the Texans looked at acquiring Johnson as part of this deal as a major plus. Perhaps. But that doesn't make it any smarter based on DJ's recent play, injury history, and exorbitant contract.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Shcritters » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am

The real question on this should be... how long will BOB be employed? Who’s starting the pool?
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby mild » Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:06 pm

Shcritters wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:17 am The real question on this should be... how long will BOB be employed? Who’s starting the pool?
There would need to be a proper fan outcry for this to happen. He was basically given unilateral power after Bob McNair's death because he still smelt slightly like Bill Belichick's aftershave. That was 2018, and he's done nothing but consolidate said power since.

Janice McNair thinks she has the guy for the job. This will need to get a lot worse before it gets better... I think a better pool might be...

What happens first:
BoB gets fired OR DeShaun Watson orchestrates a trade / holds out?

Supporting evidence, his Agent's tweet yesterday:
https://twitter.com/DavidMulugheta/stat ... 6247762944

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby PigeonBoys » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:14 pm

FantasyFreak wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 11:04 am
Ice wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:01 am I could see the Texans moving on.

I am a big Hopkins fan but moved him recently in a league I took over. After much research he looks to have lost a slight step IMO. Still very good but think his receptions may drop this year to the 80 range as he is becoming more and more a possession type.

He is entering his 8th year so max trade value is really good right now.
I feel the same way. His ADOT and YPR were really low. The Texans clearly feel the same way.
Couldn’t these metrics be explained by crap o-line? It’d be more difficult to make plays downfield if you don’t have time to throw. Also when all other texan WRs went down I felt like defenses were able to blanket him with no other threats to draw coverage.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Jigga94 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:05 am


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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby FantasyFreak » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:11 am

Jigga94 wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:05 am https://mobile.twitter.com/GetUpESPN/st ... 5721189376

BOB needs to go
Yeah, and Hopkins is saying it's way overblown. Irvin is a blowhard. Sports media thrives on creating controversy.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Jigga94 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:35 pm

FantasyFreak wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:11 am
Jigga94 wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:05 am https://mobile.twitter.com/GetUpESPN/st ... 5721189376

BOB needs to go
Yeah, and Hopkins is saying it's way overblown. Irvin is a blowhard. Sports media thrives on creating controversy.
True. Still doesn't change the fact that he needs to go

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Ryantacular » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:12 am

I stood by BOB after everything year after year. I trusted the process. Now I have to say, he really does have to go. I've never been so mad at football in my life.

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Cameron Giles » Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:47 pm

Jigga94 wrote: Wed Mar 18, 2020 8:05 am https://mobile.twitter.com/GetUpESPN/st ... 5721189376

BOB needs to go
This sounds much more believable after Darius Slay said on ESPN that Matt Patricia (another BB lackey) told Slay that he needs to stop sucking a players d.

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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby maxhyde » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:04 pm

kmbryant09 wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 am Even as a DJ owner, there's absolutely zero reason why any competent NFL evaluator should look at DJ and his current contract as an asset.

He's owed a huge amount of money this year, has not been a difference maker in the past few years, and has battled injuries (and is 28). If you want to argue that he's still a plus in the passing game (and you'd be right), Houston of all teams should not value that because they have Duke Johnson already on their team!

Maybe O'Brien and the Texans looked at acquiring Johnson as part of this deal as a major plus. Perhaps. But that doesn't make it any smarter based on DJ's recent play, injury history, and exorbitant contract.
Not an asset I would agree BUT giving Nuk his raise essentially gets him 2X the contract DJ has and with Watson about to get paid is he affordable even? I mean it isn't as though HOU can cut JJ Watt without a much more severe backlash. The Hernandez stuff from O'Brien is also a thing...I would be PISSED!
DJ averaged nearly 20ppg in PPR before game 7 then Drake arrived then they explored the cheaper RB option. Makes perfect sense for a new regime to try and offload a questionable contract they didn't make.

Anyway I get the fantasy game they are very different players last year by numbers but as a football trade its easier finding WRs that can perform well than RB's that can do it all well so the risk is understandable for a team that is pick deficient. Yeah HOU isn't going to get a Nuk in the 2nd but if this WR class is as good as we all think (the 200 pg thread is pretty convincing) adding a solid 2nd round WR might be less of a setback to the offense. We all know it is more likely a rookie RB performs better than a rookie WR @pick7/40 but long term this is a much more palatable option for a guy that knows his star WR is a potential hold-out headache.

Fantasy-wise it seems nuts...involve contracts, personal relationships, the fact Johnson might not be useless behind a line that got Hyde 1000yds and maybe it isn't the terrible trade everyone thinks it is
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby Vcize » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:14 pm

maxhyde wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:04 pm
kmbryant09 wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 am Even as a DJ owner, there's absolutely zero reason why any competent NFL evaluator should look at DJ and his current contract as an asset.

He's owed a huge amount of money this year, has not been a difference maker in the past few years, and has battled injuries (and is 28). If you want to argue that he's still a plus in the passing game (and you'd be right), Houston of all teams should not value that because they have Duke Johnson already on their team!

Maybe O'Brien and the Texans looked at acquiring Johnson as part of this deal as a major plus. Perhaps. But that doesn't make it any smarter based on DJ's recent play, injury history, and exorbitant contract.
Not an asset I would agree BUT giving Nuk his raise essentially gets him 2X the contract DJ has and with Watson about to get paid is he affordable even? I mean it isn't as though HOU can cut JJ Watt without a much more severe backlash. The Hernandez stuff from O'Brien is also a thing...I would be PISSED!
DJ averaged nearly 20ppg in PPR before game 7 then Drake arrived then they explored the cheaper RB option. Makes perfect sense for a new regime to try and offload a questionable contract they didn't make.

Anyway I get the fantasy game they are very different players last year by numbers but as a football trade its easier finding WRs that can perform well than RB's that can do it all well so the risk is understandable for a team that is pick deficient. Yeah HOU isn't going to get a Nuk in the 2nd but if this WR class is as good as we all think (the 200 pg thread is pretty convincing) adding a solid 2nd round WR might be less of a setback to the offense. We all know it is more likely a rookie RB performs better than a rookie WR @pick7/40 but long term this is a much more palatable option for a guy that knows his star WR is a potential hold-out headache.

Fantasy-wise it seems nuts...involve contracts, personal relationships, the fact Johnson might not be useless behind a line that got Hyde 1000yds and maybe it isn't the terrible trade everyone thinks it is
Yeah but if they'd signed Hopkins they probably wouldn't have needed to go out and get Cobb. They're paying almost $20 million to those two instead of just paying it to Hopkins. Obviously it's not 1 to 1 as they will be able to get out of those deals easier down the line, but still. This reminds me of the Fins not wanting to pay Landry and then spending the same amount of money on an Amendola/Wilson duo over the next two years.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:20 pm

Vcize wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:14 pm
maxhyde wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:04 pm
kmbryant09 wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 am Even as a DJ owner, there's absolutely zero reason why any competent NFL evaluator should look at DJ and his current contract as an asset.

He's owed a huge amount of money this year, has not been a difference maker in the past few years, and has battled injuries (and is 28). If you want to argue that he's still a plus in the passing game (and you'd be right), Houston of all teams should not value that because they have Duke Johnson already on their team!

Maybe O'Brien and the Texans looked at acquiring Johnson as part of this deal as a major plus. Perhaps. But that doesn't make it any smarter based on DJ's recent play, injury history, and exorbitant contract.
Not an asset I would agree BUT giving Nuk his raise essentially gets him 2X the contract DJ has and with Watson about to get paid is he affordable even? I mean it isn't as though HOU can cut JJ Watt without a much more severe backlash. The Hernandez stuff from O'Brien is also a thing...I would be PISSED!
DJ averaged nearly 20ppg in PPR before game 7 then Drake arrived then they explored the cheaper RB option. Makes perfect sense for a new regime to try and offload a questionable contract they didn't make.

Anyway I get the fantasy game they are very different players last year by numbers but as a football trade its easier finding WRs that can perform well than RB's that can do it all well so the risk is understandable for a team that is pick deficient. Yeah HOU isn't going to get a Nuk in the 2nd but if this WR class is as good as we all think (the 200 pg thread is pretty convincing) adding a solid 2nd round WR might be less of a setback to the offense. We all know it is more likely a rookie RB performs better than a rookie WR @pick7/40 but long term this is a much more palatable option for a guy that knows his star WR is a potential hold-out headache.

Fantasy-wise it seems nuts...involve contracts, personal relationships, the fact Johnson might not be useless behind a line that got Hyde 1000yds and maybe it isn't the terrible trade everyone thinks it is
Yeah but if they'd signed Hopkins they probably wouldn't have needed to go out and get Cobb. They're paying almost $20 million to those two instead of just paying it to Hopkins. Obviously it's not 1 to 1 as they will be able to get out of those deals easier down the line, but still. This reminds me of the Fins not wanting to pay Landry and then spending the same amount of money on an Amendola/Wilson duo over the next two years.
The reality is Hopkins deal would be for at least 3 years though, and DJ is essentially 1, so yeah, it's not a 1 for 1. With Watson and Tunsel coming up, they really didn't have the cap space for it, especially with a D that needs work. Hopkins is a very good player, but I understand the logistics of it, and a WR is 3rd on the pecking order to QB and LT, especially when that LT costed 2 first round picks.
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Re: DeAndre Hopkins could be traded

Postby kmbryant09 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:22 am

maxhyde wrote: Fri Mar 20, 2020 6:04 pm
kmbryant09 wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 am Even as a DJ owner, there's absolutely zero reason why any competent NFL evaluator should look at DJ and his current contract as an asset.

He's owed a huge amount of money this year, has not been a difference maker in the past few years, and has battled injuries (and is 28). If you want to argue that he's still a plus in the passing game (and you'd be right), Houston of all teams should not value that because they have Duke Johnson already on their team!

Maybe O'Brien and the Texans looked at acquiring Johnson as part of this deal as a major plus. Perhaps. But that doesn't make it any smarter based on DJ's recent play, injury history, and exorbitant contract.
Not an asset I would agree BUT giving Nuk his raise essentially gets him 2X the contract DJ has and with Watson about to get paid is he affordable even? I mean it isn't as though HOU can cut JJ Watt without a much more severe backlash. The Hernandez stuff from O'Brien is also a thing...I would be PISSED!
DJ averaged nearly 20ppg in PPR before game 7 then Drake arrived then they explored the cheaper RB option. Makes perfect sense for a new regime to try and offload a questionable contract they didn't make.

Anyway I get the fantasy game they are very different players last year by numbers but as a football trade its easier finding WRs that can perform well than RB's that can do it all well so the risk is understandable for a team that is pick deficient. Yeah HOU isn't going to get a Nuk in the 2nd but if this WR class is as good as we all think (the 200 pg thread is pretty convincing) adding a solid 2nd round WR might be less of a setback to the offense. We all know it is more likely a rookie RB performs better than a rookie WR @pick7/40 but long term this is a much more palatable option for a guy that knows his star WR is a potential hold-out headache.

Fantasy-wise it seems nuts...involve contracts, personal relationships, the fact Johnson might not be useless behind a line that got Hyde 1000yds and maybe it isn't the terrible trade everyone thinks it is
Uhh, umm, what? You're saying WR ability & production is easier to back-fill and replace than RB ability & production?

Did you not see the 49ers & Chiefs play in the Super Bowl with a bunch of career backups at the RB position? Did you not see Kenyan Drake & Chase Edmonds come in and out-produce David Johnson in Arizona? Did you not see James Conner come in and replace Le'Veon Bell in Pittsburgh? Did you not see C.J. Anderson step-in for Todd Gurley in Los Angeles in 2018 down the stretch and out-perform him in the playoffs? Did you not see 7th round pick Chris Carson come in and fill Marshawn Lynch's shoes while holding off 1st round pick Rashaad Penny? Did you not see UDFA Phillip Lindsay come in and out-produce 3rd rounder Royce Freeman? Have you not seen the Patriots churn out productive RB after productive RB no matter where they were drafted or what NFL team they had previously been on?

How many examples of RB replace-ability (is that even a word?) do we need to hit us in the face to finally realize that RB production is HIGHLY HIGHLY dependent on offensive scheme, QB play, play-calling, and O-Line work?

And the craziest thing in this entire argument is..........DAVID JOHNSON HASN'T EVEN BEEN GOOD IN 3 YEARS!

And I say all of this as a DJ owner and believer in his ability. Look, I'm ecstatic that DJ is primed to be Houston's starter. I think he can even be fairly productive (he'll probably average 3.8 ypc, but catch 50+ passes and score 8-10+ touchdowns). But so could 50 other RB's in the NFL. The fact that O'Brien decided he'd rather give up assets and pay $14 million for 1 of those 50 (when the other 49 could be had for peanuts) is laughably stupid. And then factor in that he gave up a top5 WR in the entire league - and all I can do is shake my head at people that try to rationalize this move.

I get that Houston didn't want to, and maybe couldn't afford to pay Hopkins $18+ million on a new contract with Watson & Tunsil needing new deals (not even mentioning how bad of a business decision it is to give up 2x 1st round picks for a player entering a contract year without signing them to an extension). While I'd still explore every avenue possible to try and make a Hopkins' raise work, I can at least understand if that's the reason to trade him. But, BUT - they did 2 things terribly wrong handling this situation:
1. They took back an average RB on a bloated salary - and they somehow thought that was a valuable asset.
2. They turned around and gave Randall Cobb $20 million guaranteed over the next 2 seasons. They will essentially pay David Johnson + Randall Cobb over the next 1 - 2 seasons what they could have given Hopkins over that same time frame with a new contract.

It's terrible business, plain and simple.
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