Should CMC be the MVP?

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby ThunderTung » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm

he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
12 man IDP 0.5 ppr

QB(1): Geno Smith
RB(2): ETN/Walker III
WR(2): Chase/Lamb
TE(1): Goedert
FLEX(2): Stevenson/Garrett Wilson
K: Mcpherson
DL(2): T. Walker/Vea
LB(2): D. Long/TJ Edwards
DB(2) Dugger/Moehrig
FLEX: Kenneth Murray
IR: J. Hicks/Milano/Marcus Jones
Bench:
QB: Mac Jones/Bryce Young
RB: Zeke/D. Harris
WR: N. Brown/Demario Douglas/Bobby Trees/Parker/Tyler Scott
TE: Bellinger/Schultz
DL: Barrett/J. Davis/Yannick/
LB: Milano/Edwards/K. Murray/J. Smith
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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Jigga94 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:36 pm

ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
Maybe QB have been deemed... More valuable to a team?

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby ThunderTung » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:45 pm

Jigga94 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:36 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
Maybe QB have been deemed... More valuable to a team?
if it was most valuable, wilson would have one by now, and thats coming from a guy who absolutely despises the seahawks
12 man IDP 0.5 ppr

QB(1): Geno Smith
RB(2): ETN/Walker III
WR(2): Chase/Lamb
TE(1): Goedert
FLEX(2): Stevenson/Garrett Wilson
K: Mcpherson
DL(2): T. Walker/Vea
LB(2): D. Long/TJ Edwards
DB(2) Dugger/Moehrig
FLEX: Kenneth Murray
IR: J. Hicks/Milano/Marcus Jones
Bench:
QB: Mac Jones/Bryce Young
RB: Zeke/D. Harris
WR: N. Brown/Demario Douglas/Bobby Trees/Parker/Tyler Scott
TE: Bellinger/Schultz
DL: Barrett/J. Davis/Yannick/
LB: Milano/Edwards/K. Murray/J. Smith
DB: Mathieu/Jonothan Owens

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Kcarr » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:02 pm

Weknownothing86 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:57 am
Kcarr wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:57 am Yes, running backs are more replaceable and QBS are much less so so I get the idea that the best QB in the league should win MVP. If we are judging the actual most valuable player then it is the clearly the best QB as that position just hold so much valuable in today's league. That said, I don't know that Lamar's season was really as historically great as people make it out to be. It was a very good season and pretty clearly the best one that we have seen this year but I think fantasy value skews opinions to make it appear better than it was because so many of the yards and TDs were gained by running rather than passing. In reality 6 QBs this year contributed more yards than Lamar did. He did have more TDs and a really good TD to turnover ratio so should win MVP this year but 43 TDs isn't really a historically great once in a lifetime number either.
50 Tds has been done 3 times now so thats not a historically great once in a life time number either but im sure you were ready to crown Mahomes the goat for that last offseason. " What lamar did was historically great, more historically great than Mahomes. A QB running running for that many yards has never been done before, 50 Tds has been done multiple times. Lamar just did it unconventionally
If he had 50 TDs, regardless of how he got them, I would consider that a historically great season though I would say every time it happens it becomes less impressive than the previous time. I actually would have called Mahoney's season great on a historical level though would not have labeled him an all time great qb, actually openly said he would likely regress and last year was his ceiling. In fact, at this point I would consider lamar a better qb than mahomes but would still say mahomes in 2018 had a better year than lamar in 2019. Again, lamar did not do anything above and beyond in totals, all he did was do what has been done several times before but in a different way with a different run/pass ratio
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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Straycatz2 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:55 pm

ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:45 pm if it was most valuable, wilson would have one by now, and thats coming from a guy who absolutely despises the seahawks
These awards are voted by the public/sports writers, so quiet guys like Wilson will have a harder time getting the votes.

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Cameron Giles » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm

ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
I still don't get this. The Panthers had the 5th worst point differential in the league and the 7th worst record. How could anyone possibly make an argument that CMC was the most valuable player in the league? He shouldn't even get a vote.

Throwing 15 checkdowns to CMC in a 34-point loss to the Colts isn't valuable. If anything, I think you can argue that the Panthers relying too much on his receiving ability is awful for their offense because it all starts at or behind the line of scrimmage. CMC had a -0.1 Yards Before Catch on the season. To his credit, he had a ton of YAC, but I'd rather use a ton of those targets to throw the ball downfield more. The issue with that is they didn't have the QBs for it.

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby ThunderTung » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:37 pm

Cameron Giles wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
I still don't get this. The Panthers had the 5th worst point differential in the league and the 7th worst record. How could anyone possibly make an argument that CMC was the most valuable player in the league? He shouldn't even get a vote.

Throwing 15 checkdowns to CMC in a 34-point loss to the Colts isn't valuable. If anything, I think you can argue that the Panthers relying too much on his receiving ability is awful for their offense because it all starts at or behind the line of scrimmage. CMC had a -0.1 Yards Before Catch on the season. To his credit, he had a ton of YAC, but I'd rather use a ton of those targets to throw the ball downfield more. The issue with that is they didn't have the QBs for it.
well i clearly say that the MVP award doesnt actually mean most valuable, in fact i'd argue they should change the name of the award. Its always awarded to the player who has the best season, not whoever is the most valuable to their team. and with that i'd argue that cmc has had the most impressive season and is more deserving of it.
12 man IDP 0.5 ppr

QB(1): Geno Smith
RB(2): ETN/Walker III
WR(2): Chase/Lamb
TE(1): Goedert
FLEX(2): Stevenson/Garrett Wilson
K: Mcpherson
DL(2): T. Walker/Vea
LB(2): D. Long/TJ Edwards
DB(2) Dugger/Moehrig
FLEX: Kenneth Murray
IR: J. Hicks/Milano/Marcus Jones
Bench:
QB: Mac Jones/Bryce Young
RB: Zeke/D. Harris
WR: N. Brown/Demario Douglas/Bobby Trees/Parker/Tyler Scott
TE: Bellinger/Schultz
DL: Barrett/J. Davis/Yannick/
LB: Milano/Edwards/K. Murray/J. Smith
DB: Mathieu/Jonothan Owens

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Jigga94 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:40 pm

Cameron Giles wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
I still don't get this. The Panthers had the 5th worst point differential in the league and the 7th worst record. How could anyone possibly make an argument that CMC was the most valuable player in the league? He shouldn't even get a vote.

Throwing 15 checkdowns to CMC in a 34-point loss to the Colts isn't valuable. If anything, I think you can argue that the Panthers relying too much on his receiving ability is awful for their offense because it all starts at or behind the line of scrimmage. CMC had a -0.1 Yards Before Catch on the season. To his credit, he had a ton of YAC, but I'd rather use a ton of those targets to throw the ball downfield more. The issue with that is they didn't have the QBs for it.
Seems like the same people arguing that we shouldn't let fantasy points cloud our judgement of "Most Valuable", are the same people saying CMCs numbers (aka fantasy points) were good enough to be in consideration. Seems counterintuitive to me.

They went 5-11. Enough said. No one is winning MVP at 5-11 and last in a division

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:53 pm

Jigga94 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:40 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
I still don't get this. The Panthers had the 5th worst point differential in the league and the 7th worst record. How could anyone possibly make an argument that CMC was the most valuable player in the league? He shouldn't even get a vote.

Throwing 15 checkdowns to CMC in a 34-point loss to the Colts isn't valuable. If anything, I think you can argue that the Panthers relying too much on his receiving ability is awful for their offense because it all starts at or behind the line of scrimmage. CMC had a -0.1 Yards Before Catch on the season. To his credit, he had a ton of YAC, but I'd rather use a ton of those targets to throw the ball downfield more. The issue with that is they didn't have the QBs for it.
Seems like the same people arguing that we shouldn't let fantasy points cloud our judgement of "Most Valuable", are the same people saying CMCs numbers (aka fantasy points) were good enough to be in consideration. Seems counterintuitive to me.

They went 5-11. Enough said. No one is winning MVP at 5-11 and last in a division
CMC is the Fantasy Football MVP. Lamar is the actual NFL MVP.
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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Jigga94 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:07 pm

FantasyFreak wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:53 pm
Jigga94 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:40 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm

I still don't get this. The Panthers had the 5th worst point differential in the league and the 7th worst record. How could anyone possibly make an argument that CMC was the most valuable player in the league? He shouldn't even get a vote.

Throwing 15 checkdowns to CMC in a 34-point loss to the Colts isn't valuable. If anything, I think you can argue that the Panthers relying too much on his receiving ability is awful for their offense because it all starts at or behind the line of scrimmage. CMC had a -0.1 Yards Before Catch on the season. To his credit, he had a ton of YAC, but I'd rather use a ton of those targets to throw the ball downfield more. The issue with that is they didn't have the QBs for it.
Seems like the same people arguing that we shouldn't let fantasy points cloud our judgement of "Most Valuable", are the same people saying CMCs numbers (aka fantasy points) were good enough to be in consideration. Seems counterintuitive to me.

They went 5-11. Enough said. No one is winning MVP at 5-11 and last in a division
CMC is the Fantasy Football MVP. Lamar is the actual NFL MVP.
Yes...

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Kcarr » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:59 pm

Jigga94 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:40 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm
ThunderTung wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:31 pm he probably should, but he wont. everyone knows that the MVP doesnt actually mean "most valuable player" its just whoever had the best season, QB's will always take precedent though, and RB will never win again as long as a QB is in the conversation
I still don't get this. The Panthers had the 5th worst point differential in the league and the 7th worst record. How could anyone possibly make an argument that CMC was the most valuable player in the league? He shouldn't even get a vote.

Throwing 15 checkdowns to CMC in a 34-point loss to the Colts isn't valuable. If anything, I think you can argue that the Panthers relying too much on his receiving ability is awful for their offense because it all starts at or behind the line of scrimmage. CMC had a -0.1 Yards Before Catch on the season. To his credit, he had a ton of YAC, but I'd rather use a ton of those targets to throw the ball downfield more. The issue with that is they didn't have the QBs for it.
Seems like the same people arguing that we shouldn't let fantasy points cloud our judgement of "Most Valuable", are the same people saying CMCs numbers (aka fantasy points) were good enough to be in consideration. Seems counterintuitive to me.

They went 5-11. Enough said. No one is winning MVP at 5-11 and last in a division
I have been arguing that fantasy value is clouding people's judgement of Lamar's season but never said cmc should win mvp. Now, I do think on a historic level cmc's season, having the 3rd most scrimmage yards in an nfl season and 19 TDs, stands out more than Lamar's having a season outside the top 100 offensive yards by a qb so I think cmc should win offensive player of the year but i think lamar is the mvp. I also agree that it is not actually the most valuable player but rather the most valuable player who happens to also play on one of the top teams.
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RB: Melvin Gordon, Ezekiel Elliot, Theo Riddick, D'Onta Foreman, James Conner, Jamal Williams
WR: Alshon Jeffrey, Amari Cooper, Sammy Watkins, Keenan Allen, Jordan Matthews, Cole Beasley, Robby Anderson, Corey Davis, Breshad Perriman, Eli Rogers
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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby Jigga94 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:30 am

Kcarr wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:59 pm
Jigga94 wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:40 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:59 pm

I still don't get this. The Panthers had the 5th worst point differential in the league and the 7th worst record. How could anyone possibly make an argument that CMC was the most valuable player in the league? He shouldn't even get a vote.

Throwing 15 checkdowns to CMC in a 34-point loss to the Colts isn't valuable. If anything, I think you can argue that the Panthers relying too much on his receiving ability is awful for their offense because it all starts at or behind the line of scrimmage. CMC had a -0.1 Yards Before Catch on the season. To his credit, he had a ton of YAC, but I'd rather use a ton of those targets to throw the ball downfield more. The issue with that is they didn't have the QBs for it.
Seems like the same people arguing that we shouldn't let fantasy points cloud our judgement of "Most Valuable", are the same people saying CMCs numbers (aka fantasy points) were good enough to be in consideration. Seems counterintuitive to me.

They went 5-11. Enough said. No one is winning MVP at 5-11 and last in a division
I have been arguing that fantasy value is clouding people's judgement of Lamar's season but never said cmc should win mvp. Now, I do think on a historic level cmc's season, having the 3rd most scrimmage yards in an nfl season and 19 TDs, stands out more than Lamar's having a season outside the top 100 offensive yards by a qb so I think cmc should win offensive player of the year but i think lamar is the mvp. I also agree that it is not actually the most valuable player but rather the most valuable player who happens to also play on one of the top teams.
I agree with most of that. I just think you're slighting Lamar a bit. Most rushing yards by a QB in a season and then add in his passing stats; it's the best year ever by a rushing QB. I get that you're just lumping in offensive yardage as one big stat and me saying his rushing stats makes you point to how rushing yards are more valuable in fantasy. I still think it's a historical season with the way he did it

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby ArrylT » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:04 am

mild wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:33 pm 2018 NFL Patrick Mahomes Kansas City Chiefs
2017 NFL Tom Brady New England Patriots
2016 NFL Matt Ryan Atlanta Falcons
2015 NFL Cam Newton Carolina Panthers
2014 NFL Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers
2013 NFL Peyton Manning Denver Broncos
2012 NFL Adrian Peterson Minnesota Vikings
2011 NFL Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers
2010 NFL Tom Brady New England Patriots
2009 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2008 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2007 NFL Tom Brady New England Patriots
2006 NFL LaDainian Tomlinson San Diego Chargers
2005 NFL Shaun Alexander Seattle Seahawks

2004 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2003 NFL Steve McNair Tennessee Titans
2003 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2002 NFL Rich Gannon Oakland Raiders
2001 NFL Kurt Warner St. Louis Rams
2000 NFL Marshall Faulk St. Louis Rams
1999 NFL Kurt Warner St. Louis Rams

Is he worthy of it? Yes.
Will he win it? Lol. No.
Interesting thing about 2006 - is that it appears that CMCs year in typical PPR is the best fantasy stat season by an RB since Tomlinson in 2006.

I think Lamar Jackson will win it, and it is sort of a shame that CMCs season occurred in the same year because he is only the 3rd player to ever do 1000/1000 and the other 2 are HOF or HOF bound. So I agree with mild - he is worthy, but unlikely.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby moishetreats » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:31 am

mild wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:33 pm 2018 NFL Patrick Mahomes Kansas City Chiefs
2017 NFL Tom Brady New England Patriots
2016 NFL Matt Ryan Atlanta Falcons
2015 NFL Cam Newton Carolina Panthers
2014 NFL Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers
2013 NFL Peyton Manning Denver Broncos
2012 NFL Adrian Peterson Minnesota Vikings
2011 NFL Aaron Rodgers Green Bay Packers
2010 NFL Tom Brady New England Patriots
2009 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2008 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2007 NFL Tom Brady New England Patriots
2006 NFL LaDainian Tomlinson San Diego Chargers
2005 NFL Shaun Alexander Seattle Seahawks

2004 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2003 NFL Steve McNair Tennessee Titans
2003 NFL Peyton Manning Indianapolis Colts
2002 NFL Rich Gannon Oakland Raiders
2001 NFL Kurt Warner St. Louis Rams
2000 NFL Marshall Faulk St. Louis Rams
1999 NFL Kurt Warner St. Louis Rams
Vikings record in 2012: 10-6
Chargers record in 2006: 14-2
Seahawks record in 2005: 13-3
Rams record in 2000: 10-6

5-11 doesn't cut it. I'll jump on the Offensive Player of the Year award for CMC, but not MVP. Even if he did help his team win more games, it's a lot harder to lead an average team to a 14-2 record than a disastrous team to a 5-11 record. I get the conversation, but CMC isn't in the conversation for me for MVP.
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Re: Should CMC be the MVP?

Postby bjd5211 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:44 am

Kcarr wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:59 pm

I have been arguing that fantasy value is clouding people's judgement of Lamar's season but never said cmc should win mvp. Now, I do think on a historic level cmc's season, having the 3rd most scrimmage yards in an nfl season and 19 TDs, stands out more than Lamar's having a season outside the top 100 offensive yards by a qb so I think cmc should win offensive player of the year but i think lamar is the mvp. I also agree that it is not actually the most valuable player but rather the most valuable player who happens to also play on one of the top teams.
Lamar didn't have a great year and "happen" to play on one of the top teams... his team was the best in the league BECAUSE Lamar had an incredible year. Lamar also had a historically great year because he did something that has NEVER been done before in the history of the league, which CMC did not.


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