NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Discuss free agency, trade rumors, games, and everything else concerning the NFL HERE!
Lumps
Ring of Fame
Ring of Fame
Posts: 3380
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:25 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Lumps » Wed May 22, 2019 6:26 pm

Phaded wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:11 pm Serious question - why the insanely arbitrary cut off of 13.3%? Brady won the Super Bowl just last year while taking up 12.2% of the salaries on the team.
13.3% was the quote he put forth earlier. That Peyton was the only one over 13% that has won a Super Bowl - at 13.3%.

Also, a serious question here, because I don't care to know what the caps are - if Brady was 12.2% of cap space last year, and he is the #17 QB in pay this year.... what are the %s for the upper guys? 20%?

If that is correct, and you don't see the issue with someone making 20% of the total team salary out of 53 players (or that that doesn't cause issues on a team)... I don't know what to say.
Last edited by Lumps on Wed May 22, 2019 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

User avatar
Phaded
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 11964
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Phaded » Wed May 22, 2019 6:27 pm

Looking at it from a strictly financial perspective makes absolutely no sense though because you are ignoring the numerous other variables that factor into replacing that quarterback you are suddenly choosing not to pay.

Again, this is real life - not Madden.

Lumps
Ring of Fame
Ring of Fame
Posts: 3380
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:25 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Lumps » Wed May 22, 2019 6:30 pm

Ice wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:26 pm I get people thinking Dak isn't worth the money but the reality is he will get paid because what the market is for QB's these days.

He has been a starter for 3 years now. He has made 2 pro bowls already and was the rookie of the year in 2016. He has thrown for 10,876 yards with a 66.1 Completion percentage. He has 67 TD's vs 25 interceptions with another 944 yards rushing and 18 rushing TD's. He has been making 630K per year.

His winning percentage the last 3 years is .647. That would put him 2nd in the league over that period behind only Brady.

Just to put that in perspective the active QB's with a minimum of 3 years of service with a better winning percentage in their career.

Brady .772
Big Ben .670
R/ Wilson .668
Dak P .647
A Rodgers. .629
A. Luck .606
D. Brees .586
C. Wentz .575

Not saying Dak is as good as any of those players after only 3 years but in this league it's about winning and market value. Dak has not missed a game in 3 years.

Jerry Jones is going to pay him and would it be pretty foolish not to pay him given the team is contending for a title. The market value rises as the cap rises. Wilson has set the market cap. Dak will get close to that number then when the next contract is due by someone they will beat that number.

It's not about what they are actually worth but what the market value is.

Wentz will probably get more and he hasn't been as good given he can't stay on the field. Goff will to but since they were 1st round players the teams have a 5th year options. Dak is in the last year of his contract.

If they don't sign him they will franchise him but for cap purposes it makes sense to sign him now.

QB's don't grow on trees, Dallas was lucky to find a QB in the 4th round. The problem is they are too good to go find one in the high first next year.

Dallas has been preparing to pay him now for two years.
This is the Flacco argument. We've seen how that plays out. Except, Flacco won a Super Bowl.

**Also, acting like they are winning because of Dak is laughable.
Image

User avatar
Phaded
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 11964
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Phaded » Wed May 22, 2019 6:33 pm

Lumps wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:26 pm13.3% was the quote he put forth earlier. That Peyton was the only one over 13% that has won a Super Bowl - at 13.3%.

Also, a serious question here, because I don't care to know what the caps are - if Brady was 12.2% of cap space last year, and he is the #17 QB in pay this year.... what are the %s for the upper guys? 20%?

If that is correct, and you don't see the issue with someone making 20% of the total team salary out of 53 players (or that that doesn't cause issues on a team)... I don't know what to say.
In 2019 - Matthew Stafford has the largest cap hit of $29.5m, with a salary cap of $194.4m.
Where exactly are you getting 20%? Stafford is the highest at 15.1%.

Brady is taking up 13.5% of the Patriots salary cap in 2019.

FantasyFreak
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 27105
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:03 am

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby FantasyFreak » Wed May 22, 2019 6:41 pm

I Dak gets paid 30 million (he is looking for AT LEAST that) a year, with 2020's projected salary cap he would account for 14.6 percent of their cap. Demarcus Lawrence will account for 10.7 percent. That would be over 25 percent for 2 players. I don't believe there has ever been a cap hit that high for 2 players before, based on articles I read about the Raiders not paying Mack and Carr. Also, if Cooper gets 18 million a year, and by all account his agent is looking for more than that, he would account for a cap hit of 8.7 percent, so that would be almost 35 percent on 3 players in a 2020.
Last edited by FantasyFreak on Wed May 22, 2019 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You're a creep. You got caught.." -Dan Patrick

User avatar
Phaded
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 11964
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Phaded » Wed May 22, 2019 6:45 pm

FantasyFreak wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:41 pm I Dak gets paid 30 million (he is looking for AT LEAST that) a year, with 2020's projected salary cap he would account for 14.6 percent of their cap.
On the flip side - we are all talking speculatively at this point based on rumours when it comes to what Dak gets paid.
It is "around 30m" - which doesn't account for contract structure and leaves it very ambiguous of the definition of "around".

As we all know, NFL contracts are not as simple as $x per year.

Also - yeah, tying up that much money on a few players is a much bigger problem than paying a quarterback.

Lumps
Ring of Fame
Ring of Fame
Posts: 3380
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:25 pm
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Lumps » Wed May 22, 2019 6:46 pm

Phaded wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:33 pm

In 2019 - Matthew Stafford has the largest cap hit of $29.5m, with a salary cap of $194.4m.
Where exactly are you getting 20%? Stafford is the highest at 15.1%.

Brady is taking up 13.5% of the Patriots salary cap in 2019.
Cap hit vs that link I provided earlier with average salary of the contract.
FantasyFreak wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:41 pm I Dak gets paid 30 million (he is looking for AT LEAST that) a year, with 2020's projected salary cap he would account for 14.6 percent of their cap. Demarcus Lawrence will account for 10.7 percent. That would be over 25 percent for 2 players. I don't believe there has ever been a cap hit that high for 2 players before, based on articles I read about the Raiders not paying Mack and Carr. Also, if Cooper gets 18 million a year, he would account for a cap hit of 8.7 percent, so that would be almost 35 percent on 3 players in a 2020.
And Zeke? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Image

User avatar
Phaded
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 11964
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Phaded » Wed May 22, 2019 6:47 pm

Don't use "average salary" when you are calculating it - because of how NFL contracts are created and structured, you have to review it on a year to year basis.

For example, the media is widely reporting that Wilson is getting paid $40m per year.
However, over the next five years, Wilson's cap hits are as follows: 26m, 31m, 32m, 37m, (OUT), 39m.
Last edited by Phaded on Wed May 22, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FantasyFreak
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 27105
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:03 am

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby FantasyFreak » Wed May 22, 2019 6:48 pm

Phaded wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:45 pm
FantasyFreak wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:41 pm I Dak gets paid 30 million (he is looking for AT LEAST that) a year, with 2020's projected salary cap he would account for 14.6 percent of their cap.
On the flip side - we are all talking speculatively at this point based on rumours when it comes to what Dak gets paid.
It is "around 30m" - which doesn't account for contract structure and leaves it very ambiguous of the definition of "around".

As we all know, NFL contracts are not as simple as $x per year.
Of course. I think that the way the Cowboys are going, they have one too many big contracts. With Dak, Coop, Lawrence and Zeke, they will have a ton of cap tied up in 4 guys. The Gurley, Cooks and Donald deals by the Rams could get done because of Goff's rookie deal, if the Cowboys pay all 4, I feel they will have too much tied up in too few players, but we shall see how they manage it.
"You're a creep. You got caught.." -Dan Patrick

FantasyFreak
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 27105
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:03 am

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby FantasyFreak » Wed May 22, 2019 6:49 pm

Phaded wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:47 pm Don't use "average salary" when you are calculating it - because of how NFL contracts are created and structured, you have to review it on a year to year basis.
I'm looking at Lawrence's cap hit for next year, I'm just using 30 million as a whearbouts number for Dak, because we don't know, but it will be in that ball park of a cap hit, presumably. May be a bit more or a bit less.
"You're a creep. You got caught.." -Dan Patrick

User avatar
Phaded
GOAT
GOAT
Posts: 11964
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Phaded » Wed May 22, 2019 6:51 pm

FantasyFreak wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:49 pm
Phaded wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:47 pm Don't use "average salary" when you are calculating it - because of how NFL contracts are created and structured, you have to review it on a year to year basis.
I'm looking at Lawrence's cap hit for next year, I'm just using 30 million as a whearbouts number for Dak, because we don't know, but it will be in that ball park of a cap hit, presumably. May be a bit more or a bit less.
Maybe I should have quoted, but that response was to Lumps - not you.

Ice
Legend
Legend
Posts: 6590
Joined: Tue May 22, 2018 6:17 pm

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby Ice » Wed May 22, 2019 6:54 pm

Lumps wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:30 pm
Ice wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:26 pm I get people thinking Dak isn't worth the money but the reality is he will get paid because what the market is for QB's these days.

He has been a starter for 3 years now. He has made 2 pro bowls already and was the rookie of the year in 2016. He has thrown for 10,876 yards with a 66.1 Completion percentage. He has 67 TD's vs 25 interceptions with another 944 yards rushing and 18 rushing TD's. He has been making 630K per year.

His winning percentage the last 3 years is .647. That would put him 2nd in the league over that period behind only Brady.

Just to put that in perspective the active QB's with a minimum of 3 years of service with a better winning percentage in their career.

Brady .772
Big Ben .670
R/ Wilson .668
Dak P .647
A Rodgers. .629
A. Luck .606
D. Brees .586
C. Wentz .575

Not saying Dak is as good as any of those players after only 3 years but in this league it's about winning and market value. Dak has not missed a game in 3 years.

Jerry Jones is going to pay him and would it be pretty foolish not to pay him given the team is contending for a title. The market value rises as the cap rises. Wilson has set the market cap. Dak will get close to that number then when the next contract is due by someone they will beat that number.

It's not about what they are actually worth but what the market value is.

Wentz will probably get more and he hasn't been as good given he can't stay on the field. Goff will to but since they were 1st round players the teams have a 5th year options. Dak is in the last year of his contract.

If they don't sign him they will franchise him but for cap purposes it makes sense to sign him now.

QB's don't grow on trees, Dallas was lucky to find a QB in the 4th round. The problem is they are too good to go find one in the high first next year.

Dallas has been preparing to pay him now for two years.
This is the Flacco argument. We've seen how that plays out. Except, Flacco won a Super Bowl.

**Also, acting like they are winning because of Dak is laughable.
It's the reality of the NFL regardless of how you want to spin it.

What is laughable are those that don't believe he will get paid. Hell Cousins has the second highest salary against the cap this year.

If you don't think Dak has contributed then you don't really understand the QB position at this level. He has already put up 14 game winning drives in 3 years. Wilson Rocks this stat but only has 23 in 7 years.
The Clock is Running and there are no Timeouts

jenkins.math
All Pro
All Pro
Posts: 1589
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:56 am

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby jenkins.math » Wed May 22, 2019 6:58 pm

Phaded wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:27 pm Looking at it from a strictly financial perspective makes absolutely no sense though because you are ignoring the numerous other variables that factor into replacing that quarterback you are suddenly choosing not to pay.

Again, this is real life - not Madden.
Again, ignoring the financial impact a large contract has on your ability to fill out a complete roster is stupid and makes zero sense.

Like I said a few posts ago there isnt any reason in continuing this. I know where you stand.

OhCruelestRanter
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2732
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:33 pm

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby OhCruelestRanter » Wed May 22, 2019 7:08 pm

Ice wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:54 pm
Lumps wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:30 pm
Ice wrote: Wed May 22, 2019 6:26 pm I get people thinking Dak isn't worth the money but the reality is he will get paid because what the market is for QB's these days.

He has been a starter for 3 years now. He has made 2 pro bowls already and was the rookie of the year in 2016. He has thrown for 10,876 yards with a 66.1 Completion percentage. He has 67 TD's vs 25 interceptions with another 944 yards rushing and 18 rushing TD's. He has been making 630K per year.

His winning percentage the last 3 years is .647. That would put him 2nd in the league over that period behind only Brady.

Just to put that in perspective the active QB's with a minimum of 3 years of service with a better winning percentage in their career.

Brady .772
Big Ben .670
R/ Wilson .668
Dak P .647
A Rodgers. .629
A. Luck .606
D. Brees .586
C. Wentz .575

Not saying Dak is as good as any of those players after only 3 years but in this league it's about winning and market value. Dak has not missed a game in 3 years.

Jerry Jones is going to pay him and would it be pretty foolish not to pay him given the team is contending for a title. The market value rises as the cap rises. Wilson has set the market cap. Dak will get close to that number then when the next contract is due by someone they will beat that number.

It's not about what they are actually worth but what the market value is.

Wentz will probably get more and he hasn't been as good given he can't stay on the field. Goff will to but since they were 1st round players the teams have a 5th year options. Dak is in the last year of his contract.

If they don't sign him they will franchise him but for cap purposes it makes sense to sign him now.

QB's don't grow on trees, Dallas was lucky to find a QB in the 4th round. The problem is they are too good to go find one in the high first next year.

Dallas has been preparing to pay him now for two years.
This is the Flacco argument. We've seen how that plays out. Except, Flacco won a Super Bowl.

**Also, acting like they are winning because of Dak is laughable.
It's the reality of the NFL regardless of how you want to spin it.

What is laughable are those that don't believe he will get paid. Hell Cousins has the second highest salary against the cap this year.

If you don't think Dak has contributed then you don't really understand the QB position at this level. He has already put up 14 game winning drives in 3 years. Wilson Rocks this stat but only has 23 in 7 years.
Oh good, Socrates is here to quote QB winning percentage and then haughtily tell other people they don’t “understand the QB position.” Great.

The Cowboys have been good with Dak because he provides league average production for a below league average chunk of the salary cap.

In terms that even Socrates here can understand: paying a QB less than he’s worth is good for the team; paying him more than he’s worth is bad for the team. Dak is not the best QB in the league. Paying him like he’s the best QB in the league would be bad for the team, even if it’s market value.
COOGAN IS A CHEATER AND A THIEF

User avatar
ArrylT
Degenerate
Degenerate
Posts: 9526
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2015 9:32 pm
Location: Canada

Re: NFL Quarterback Trap - and the mental gymnastics to justify it

Postby ArrylT » Wed May 22, 2019 8:17 pm

This thread is being locked as the discussion seems to be going no where fast.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ahrefs [Bot] and 5 guests