Do you hate Winston

[dm1129]

It is important to keep in mind that there has been an influx of QB talent into the league recently. The dynamic of having at least a third of the league desperate for a QB does not exist currently. I am not suggesting all 32 teams definitely have their 'franchise' QB, but the situation is not as dire as it was a couple of years ago. Because of this, I think it allows the TB front office more freedom in regard to signing Winston long term. The prospect of Winston not being re-signed should not be viewed as an impossibility. I believe it is likely they will franchise him a la Cousins in 2020 rather than sign him long term or possibly even move on after 2019. A guy like Teddy Bridgewater(among others) is waiting for an opportunity not to mention QBs entering the league in the next two seasons, it will be interesting to watch unfold.

There's as big of an outflow as there is an inflow. Peyton dropped. Eli is a shell of a QB. Carson Palmer is out. Brady, Rivers, Big Ben & Brees are all nearing the end.

This simply is not the case. All anyone needs to do is look at the league team by team to see there are fewer teams desperate for a QB now than there was a few years ago. Regarding the QBs you list, Eli is a completely replaceable talent at this point in his career by QBs already in the league such Tyrod Taylor, Sam Bradford, and Bridgewater. The departure of Brady is essentially offset by the addition of Garoppolo. Rivers, Big Ben and Brees all plan to play several more years. Ben and Rivers are both 36, so based on what Brady, Brees and Peyton have done, I see no reason why that cannot happen. The Saints have already transformed their offense to be run heavy and rely on Brees much less to carry them, so perhaps he has longer to play than many anticipate. Additionally, there will be new talent entering the league. For these reasons, I do not see a sudden outflow of QB talent during the time frame when Winston's contract will be up which would change the dynamic that exists today.

[ericanadian]

It is important to keep in mind that there has been an influx of QB talent into the league recently. The dynamic of having at least a third of the league desperate for a QB does not exist currently. I am not suggesting all 32 teams definitely have their 'franchise' QB, but the situation is not as dire as it was a couple of years ago. Because of this, I think it allows the TB front office more freedom in regard to signing Winston long term. The prospect of Winston not being re-signed should not be viewed as an impossibility. I believe it is likely they will franchise him a la Cousins in 2020 rather than sign him long term or possibly even move on after 2019. A guy like Teddy Bridgewater(among others) is waiting for an opportunity not to mention QBs entering the league in the next two seasons, it will be interesting to watch unfold.

There's as big of an outflow as there is an inflow. Peyton dropped. Eli is a shell of a QB. Carson Palmer is out. Brady, Rivers, Big Ben & Brees are all nearing the end.

This simply is not the case. All anyone needs to do is look at the league team by team to see there are fewer teams desperate for a QB now than there was a few years ago. Regarding the QBs you list, Eli is a completely replaceable talent at this point in his career by QBs already in the league such Tyrod Taylor, Sam Bradford, and Bridgewater. The departure of Brady is essentially offset by the addition of Garoppolo. Rivers, Big Ben and Brees all plan to play several more years. Ben and Rivers are both 36, so based on what Brady, Brees and Peyton have done, I see no reason why that cannot happen. The Saints have already transformed their offense to be run heavy and rely on Brees much less to carry them, so perhaps he has longer to play than many anticipate. Additionally, there will be new talent entering the league. For these reasons, I do not see a sudden outflow of QB talent during the time frame when Winston's contract will be up which would change the dynamic that exists today.

Transforming offenses is different than inflow/outflow and Eli was a fine QB back when Bridgewater entered the league. There were also middling starters like Culter and Flacco and Kaepernick at the level of guys like Bradford, Taylor & Bridgewater. Systems have definitely changed to alleviate the need for downfield accuracy, which has allowed mediocre QBs like Goff, Carr & Keenum to be functional starters. I think that's the biggest change. In the old school systems, those three QBs would already be considered flops. Also, QB situations always look better at the beginning of the year when FAs and rookies haven't had a chance to flop. It's unlikely that all these QBs will leave their teams happy with their situation.

[Plank]

I'm certainly not happy with him right now ..

[dm1129]

There's as big of an outflow as there is an inflow. Peyton dropped. Eli is a shell of a QB. Carson Palmer is out. Brady, Rivers, Big Ben & Brees are all nearing the end.

This simply is not the case. All anyone needs to do is look at the league team by team to see there are fewer teams desperate for a QB now than there was a few years ago. Regarding the QBs you list, Eli is a completely replaceable talent at this point in his career by QBs already in the league such Tyrod Taylor, Sam Bradford, and Bridgewater. The departure of Brady is essentially offset by the addition of Garoppolo. Rivers, Big Ben and Brees all plan to play several more years. Ben and Rivers are both 36, so based on what Brady, Brees and Peyton have done, I see no reason why that cannot happen. The Saints have already transformed their offense to be run heavy and rely on Brees much less to carry them, so perhaps he has longer to play than many anticipate. Additionally, there will be new talent entering the league. For these reasons, I do not see a sudden outflow of QB talent during the time frame when Winston's contract will be up which would change the dynamic that exists today.

Transforming offenses is different than inflow/outflow and Eli was a fine QB back when Bridgewater entered the league. There were also middling starters like Culter and Flacco and Kaepernick at the level of guys like Bradford, Taylor & Bridgewater. Systems have definitely changed to alleviate the need for downfield accuracy, which has allowed mediocre QBs like Goff, Carr & Keenum to be functional starters. I think that's the biggest change. In the old school systems, those three QBs would already be considered flops. Also, QB situations always look better at the beginning of the year when FAs and rookies haven't had a chance to flop. It's unlikely that all these QBs will leave their teams happy with their situation.

Goff is not medicore and simply a product of the system anymore than Brady, Brees, Wentz, etc.......Cutler and Kaep are still available and Flacco is still starting...I am actually surprsied that there are people who do not see what has happened at the QB position, but so be it...

[Metriculous]

I agree that Ben and Rivers have several years left (although some people want to believe that they are retired already).

Brady and Brees are close. Their repsective teams do not have direct replacements lined up.

Jameis is not the best QB in the NFL, but he is not going to be without a job.

He is above replacement level with regard to MOST facets that QBs are evaluated on.


I feel that some people (lets call them Moral Orel's, remember him?) want NFL players and athletes to be held to a high moral standard because it is the "right" thing to do, but I don't think anyone really cares. I don't. I don't think GM's really care.

They care when the public (read that as $$$ and press) demand them to care. Nobody is really doing that right now. This story and the McCoy story were met with a collective "meh" this summer.

Jameis will be back with the Bucs on a new deal. Teddy may get a deal somewhere also. The world keeps spinning and people will keep doing "naughty" things.

[Pullo Vision]

30% is a huge percentage considering it's for a position as extreme as 'hate', so apparently it isn't bullshit, OP. That's almost 1 in 3 people.

Anyway. I don't 'hate' Winston. But he is panning out at this point as only an above-average QB in the NFL. It's reasonable to expect him to remain a top 15 QB going forward, but so far as I can see after three seasons, he isn't a blue chip. He just isn't that good.

30% IS a significant percentage. I'd expect higher for such a strong "this community hates x" statement. I'd understand less than 100%, but not below 65-75%.

If this were the only example of a blanket statement attributing thoughts/views to everyone who uses this forum, it'd be easier to give this post a pass. But it's not. Off the top of my head, I also recall one saying everyone here "loves" youth. It's not like people who visit here don't go elsewhere, or say things here they don't elsewhere.

I initially expected people to "hate" Winston for his off field stuff, but there's been more comments about his on field play than I thought. Very happy about that.

[skip]

I feel that some people (lets call them Moral Orel's, remember him?) want NFL players and athletes to be held to a high moral standard because it is the "right" thing to do, but I don't think anyone really cares. I don't. I don't think GM's really care.

I thought this discussion was all about on field play, not off field. I do think NFL players, athletes in general, and frankly any decent human being should be held to a high moral standard. Reality is that NFL players for the most part have been protected from the appropriate discipline for their actions. Sexual assault is a serious issue and in real life people lose their jobs over such things. It's a shame that players are treated with kid gloves.

[Metriculous]

People think he is losing his job because of off field issues that will lead to the front office not offering him a new contract.

It is currently impossible to separate the 2 discussions.

You would need a "jury" of people unaware of his off field antics to fairly evaluate him as a QB.

That is currently impossible.

Is Mariota in the same situation? To spin it a different way. I would argue that his on field performance has been worse.

[Pullo Vision]

I feel that some people (lets call them Moral Orel's, remember him?) want NFL players and athletes to be held to a high moral standard because it is the "right" thing to do, but I don't think anyone really cares. I don't. I don't think GM's really care.

I thought this discussion was all about on field play, not off field. I do think NFL players, athletes in general, and frankly any decent human being should be held to a high moral standard. Reality is that NFL players for the most part have been protected from the appropriate discipline for their actions. Sexual assault is a serious issue and in real life people lose their jobs over such things. It's a shame that players are treated with kid gloves.

I don't want to spin this too far from Winston, but should people lose their jobs for actions they took before they were employed there? Winston's Uber thing was when he was in college.

[skip]

I feel that some people (lets call them Moral Orel's, remember him?) want NFL players and athletes to be held to a high moral standard because it is the "right" thing to do, but I don't think anyone really cares. I don't. I don't think GM's really care.

I thought this discussion was all about on field play, not off field. I do think NFL players, athletes in general, and frankly any decent human being should be held to a high moral standard. Reality is that NFL players for the most part have been protected from the appropriate discipline for their actions. Sexual assault is a serious issue and in real life people lose their jobs over such things. It's a shame that players are treated with kid gloves.

I don't want to spin this too far from Winston, but should people lose their jobs for actions they took before they were employed there? Winston's Uber thing was when he was in college.

I never said he should... I'm commenting generally regarding how weak the NFL is regarding discipline of players relative to what happens in the rest of the world.

[ArrylT]

Based on some of the comments in this thread I can certainly understand why Phaded said what he said.

I don't. A blanket statement "this community hates player A" can't be right if that position is in the minority in the poll. It's two to one (31-14) in favor of I don't hate Winston. It's the first day, so maybe things change once the season starts and he's playing.

This isn't the first/only blanket statement I've seen where people who use DLF somehow strongly favor or disfavor a certain player. Every single one of those statements is indefensible.

I am not saying I agree with or condone what was said. Just that I could understand why it was said. Also, while I cannot speak for Phaded or any other person, I do think it was meant to be (slightly) hyperbolic - I quite agree that there are plenty of times DLF posters use blanket statements when there is evidence that the blanket statement in question would be false - I would say though the intention was to express a belief/feeling rather than a fact. Sort of similar when someone calls a player a JAG - that player may still be better than 95-98% of all other football players, but when compared in contrast to the top 2-5% then they are JAG.

But that is just my interpretation.

[ericanadian]

This simply is not the case. All anyone needs to do is look at the league team by team to see there are fewer teams desperate for a QB now than there was a few years ago. Regarding the QBs you list, Eli is a completely replaceable talent at this point in his career by QBs already in the league such Tyrod Taylor, Sam Bradford, and Bridgewater. The departure of Brady is essentially offset by the addition of Garoppolo. Rivers, Big Ben and Brees all plan to play several more years. Ben and Rivers are both 36, so based on what Brady, Brees and Peyton have done, I see no reason why that cannot happen. The Saints have already transformed their offense to be run heavy and rely on Brees much less to carry them, so perhaps he has longer to play than many anticipate. Additionally, there will be new talent entering the league. For these reasons, I do not see a sudden outflow of QB talent during the time frame when Winston's contract will be up which would change the dynamic that exists today.

Transforming offenses is different than inflow/outflow and Eli was a fine QB back when Bridgewater entered the league. There were also middling starters like Culter and Flacco and Kaepernick at the level of guys like Bradford, Taylor & Bridgewater. Systems have definitely changed to alleviate the need for downfield accuracy, which has allowed mediocre QBs like Goff, Carr & Keenum to be functional starters. I think that's the biggest change. In the old school systems, those three QBs would already be considered flops. Also, QB situations always look better at the beginning of the year when FAs and rookies haven't had a chance to flop. It's unlikely that all these QBs will leave their teams happy with their situation.

Goff is not medicore and simply a product of the system anymore than Brady, Brees, Wentz, etc.......Cutler and Kaep are still available and Flacco is still starting...I am actually surprsied that there are people who do not see what has happened at the QB position, but so be it...

What time frame are you talking here? I thought we were talking about now vs three to five years ago, but Cutler, Kaep & Flacco are not as good as they were then and are not nearly as valued as they were then, so I'm not really sure what your point is when you say they are still available. So is RGIII, but five years ago he was going into his second season as a superstar, now he's garbage. A team with RGIII five years ago thinks they're set for the next ten years. A team with RGIII now wonders why their GM hates them. Your argument seems to contend that all these rookies and guys with one good year are sure things, so Winston is going to find a dead market. A couple of these guys are almost certainly going to fail. You seem to contend that everyone will play as long as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning even while the bottom already fell out on Eli Manning at 36 and Carson Palmer retired at 38 and probably should've retired at 37. You bring up guys like Sam Bradford, like he has no injury history. Your entire argument seems to rest on the best case scenario playing out for every starter and future starter currently in the NFL.

[Valhalla]

Agreed and this hits my point. Even if I were a fan of a team in DESPERATE need of a QB, I would be disappointed to see them land Winston when there's options like Bridgewater out there. There's more to quarterbacking than a big arm.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on Bridgewater. I didn't care for him as a prospect and in the two years he had as the starter in Minnesota, I wasn't surprised that they cut ties. His fantasy production want good at all and as an NFL QB, I was left unimpressed. I do think he has a role in the league, but I'm not confident it's as a starter. As a Cleveland fan, I'm much happier with the combo of Tyrod and Mayfield than the prospect of someone like Bridgewater. For that matter, I wouldn't care all that much about Winston either but I think he's got a little more potential to hang onto a starting job.

I agree I like the Browns QB situation a lot and would take Mayfield over Bridgewater every time. Tyrod is a closer call for me. I’d still take Tyrod but I believe that Bridgewater is a similarly under-appreciated NFL QB. People write him off, much like they write off Tyrod, because he hasn’t lit it up with passing numbers. That doesn’t mean they can’t play an efficient, winning style, though. Much like other sports, stat accumulation doesn’t equate to contributor to a good football team (other than fantasy of course).

Bridgewater just passes the eye test for me. He is very good at managing a high degree of pressure. He was, I believe, the most pressured QB in the NFL. I remember seeing a stat (probably from PFF) that compared the rate of pressures Newton faced in that Super Bowl game with the Broncos constantly destroying him, and the average pressure Bridgewater faced. In Bridgewater’s average game that season, he was more consistently pressured than Cam was in that laughable display of “protection” against the Broncos. So that gives some idea of his OL play for those who can’t remember (because everyone remembers that super bowl I presume).
Anyways, he wasn’t just dealing with that high amount of pressure consistently; he was dealing with it with some efficiency. And this was in an antiquated, Norv Turner system. Norv is installing some different looks now, but he wasn’t back then. This was VERY similar to the Jeff Fisher offense, designed around running incredibly predictably on 1st and 2nd and passing on usually 3rd and long (because 3rd and short was often another run). It ran mostly from the I-form, because Peterson was great in that and pretty bad from shotgun. This was much like the Jared Goff rookie season, but Bridgewater was more pressured...and still far more effective than Goff. The key difference? Goff was moved into McVay’s system the following offseason. Bridgewater was moved to the hospital. Now his story continues. He showed FAR more than most QBs would have shown in that system.

For those that fall back on the argument that he was bad because he wasn’t putting up huge numbers...well he wasn’t really allowed to. He had the fewest pass attempts of all starters that season, as it was an offense designed around Peterson and defense. Bridgewater was quite often asked to pass in obvious passing situations, without the benefit of frequent passes in less obvious situations to bolster his stats. He was fighting a real uphill battle, playing in a type of system that makes qbs look like garbage, and he was actually quite smart and efficient with the ball.

He didn’t connect well on the deep ball...but was passing deep to who? Jarius Wright? Charles Johnson was arguably his best WR, and he was needing to connect with these guys under heavy pressure on usually third and obvious situations.

I’m not saying Bridgewater is some hidden Russell Wilson or something. I’m saying he’s under-appreciated for what he DID accomplish given the situation, and is now just looked at by most as an underperformer who got injured. He’s not once played behind an even adequate line. Only behind league worst type of play. He’s primarily gotten to play in the I-form...not his strong suit and not one suited for QB stats. I wouldn’t be so quick to write him off based on past performance, because I actually believe his past performance is a strike FOR him, not against him.

There’s my brief summary...

[dm1129]

Transforming offenses is different than inflow/outflow and Eli was a fine QB back when Bridgewater entered the league. There were also middling starters like Culter and Flacco and Kaepernick at the level of guys like Bradford, Taylor & Bridgewater. Systems have definitely changed to alleviate the need for downfield accuracy, which has allowed mediocre QBs like Goff, Carr & Keenum to be functional starters. I think that's the biggest change. In the old school systems, those three QBs would already be considered flops. Also, QB situations always look better at the beginning of the year when FAs and rookies haven't had a chance to flop. It's unlikely that all these QBs will leave their teams happy with their situation.

Goff is not medicore and simply a product of the system anymore than Brady, Brees, Wentz, etc.......Cutler and Kaep are still available and Flacco is still starting...I am actually surprsied that there are people who do not see what has happened at the QB position, but so be it...

What time frame are you talking here? I thought we were talking about now vs three to five years ago, but Cutler, Kaep & Flacco are not as good as they were then and are not nearly as valued as they were then, so I'm not really sure what your point is when you say they are still available. So is RGIII, but five years ago he was going into his second season as a superstar, now he's garbage. A team with RGIII five years ago thinks they're set for the next ten years. A team with RGIII now wonders why their GM hates them. Your argument seems to contend that all these rookies and guys with one good year are sure things, so Winston is going to find a dead market. A couple of these guys are almost certainly going to fail. You seem to contend that everyone will play as long as Tom Brady and Peyton Manning even while the bottom already fell out on Eli Manning at 36 and Carson Palmer retired at 38 and probably should've retired at 37. You bring up guys like Sam Bradford, like he has no injury history. Your entire argument seems to rest on the best case scenario playing out for every starter and future starter currently in the NFL.

Not at all. I said the influx of QB talent into the league over the past few years will give the TB front office more freedom in terms of re-signing Winston. The reality is he is far closer to average than he is elite. When a front office contemplates signing him to a long term deal, then his off the field stupidity has to be taken into account. The TB front office may very well have other options that are more appealing. Your argument seems to assume there will be no new QB talent entering the league in the next few years.