Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby AZK » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:56 pm

Never Veto wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:38 pm
Reljac wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:26 pm
JFever wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:20 pm
I like the Carolina back up idea. It makes a lot of sense from a skill set perspective and scheme perspective. (nice take on that one).
He would not be wanted here in Carolina. The players on this team are all about team first and have always worked hard to not center the attention on themselves.
Cam Newton :think:
Cam trying not to be the center of attention
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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Reljac » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:58 pm

Concept Coop wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:42 pm
Steve Smith or Cam Newton have been the face of the franchise going back a decade plus.
Lol... you aren't from around here are you? When Cam's rookie contract was up, more than half the fans were didn't want him resigned... that was 3 years ago.
12-team Non-PPR QB, 2-RB, 3-WR, TE, K, DEF
QB: Luck, C Wentz
RB: David Johnson, N Chubb, D Guice, I Crowell, A Jones, P Barber
WR: Julio, A Robinson, M Evans, M Thomas, M Williams, JuJu, C Samuel, T Taylor, C Williams
TE: T Burton, D Njoku
K: Gostkowski
DEF: Zona

2019: 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Reljac » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:59 pm

Neight wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:56 pm
Never Veto wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:38 pm
Reljac wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:26 pm


He would not be wanted here in Carolina. The players on this team are all about team first and have always worked hard to not center the attention on themselves.
Cam Newton :think:
Cam trying not to be the center of attention
Like I said... not someone the fans particularly appreciate. But then again... just a bunch of forum bozos who aren't from Charlotte acting like they are experts on what people in Charlotte think :crazy:
12-team Non-PPR QB, 2-RB, 3-WR, TE, K, DEF
QB: Luck, C Wentz
RB: David Johnson, N Chubb, D Guice, I Crowell, A Jones, P Barber
WR: Julio, A Robinson, M Evans, M Thomas, M Williams, JuJu, C Samuel, T Taylor, C Williams
TE: T Burton, D Njoku
K: Gostkowski
DEF: Zona

2019: 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Concept Coop » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:03 pm

Reljac wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:58 pm
Concept Coop wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:42 pm
Steve Smith or Cam Newton have been the face of the franchise going back a decade plus.
Lol... you aren't from around here are you? When Cam's rookie contract was up, more than half the fans were didn't want him resigned... that was 3 years ago.
More than half? And what do you base that on? Should we compare attendance numbers? And what about Steve Smith?

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Concept Coop » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:06 pm

Reljac wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:56 pm
Concept Coop wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:40 pm
If it wasn't for his protest, he'd have a job playing QB in the NFL right now.
If it wasn't for his protest, No one would would be talking about him or demanding he be given a job.

Before he lost his job in SF, tons of posts on these forums about what a bad QB he was. Yeah he worked in Fantasy because of his running, but that was it...
You said he's not an NFL QB and now you're moving the goalposts. You can not like the guy and still admit that he's and NFL caliber talent.

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Reljac » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:07 pm

Concept Coop wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:03 pm


More than half? And what do you base that on? Should we compare attendance numbers? And what about Steve Smith?
I base that on listening to Panthers AM sports shows and polling at the time, because I live here. It was something like 58%.
12-team Non-PPR QB, 2-RB, 3-WR, TE, K, DEF
QB: Luck, C Wentz
RB: David Johnson, N Chubb, D Guice, I Crowell, A Jones, P Barber
WR: Julio, A Robinson, M Evans, M Thomas, M Williams, JuJu, C Samuel, T Taylor, C Williams
TE: T Burton, D Njoku
K: Gostkowski
DEF: Zona

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Reljac » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:19 pm

Concept Coop wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:06 pm

You said he's not an NFL QB and now you're moving the goalposts. You can not like the guy and still admit that he's and NFL caliber talent.
I think he sucks as a passer. The below says it a lot better than I can.
Chris Wesseling wrote:What does the game film show?

It would be disingenuous to take the position that Kaepernick is not a uniquely talented quarterback. He's an incredibly gifted athlete with Superhero-like physical attributes that infamously led ESPN analyst Ron Jaworski to predict all-time greatness in the halcyon days of the 2013 read-option craze.

A cannon arm should grant Kaepernick the ability to make all of the NFL throws. With each passing season, though, it becomes more and more obvious that Kaepernick is a limited passer lacking the requisite touch, accuracy, anticipation and situational awareness of a franchise quarterback. By Thanksgiving of last season, all throws to wide receivers outside the numbers and downfield had vanished from the 49ers offense -- an ostensible concession from then-coach Chip Kelly that Kaepernick simply can't make those all-important throws with any degree of consistency.

As impressive as Kaepernick's 16:4 touchdown-to-interception ratio might seem without context, it reflects a remedial signal-caller being asked to make the simplest reads and easiest throws. A quintessential "see-it, throw-it" passer, Kaepernick waits for his targets to separate from coverage rather than anticipating the route and throwing his receivers open. As a natural byproduct of that playing style, third downs devolved into a wasteland of drive-killing sacks and ineffectual passes short of the sticks.


Over the past three years, Kaepernick has ranked 30th, 34th and 29th in Football Outsiders' passing efficiency metrics -- and just fractionally better in Gregg Rosenthal's QB Index.

Beyond the passing problems, Kaepernick comes with a red flag unshared by any other established quarterback: He has yet to prove he can succeed outside the cozy confines of the zone-read attack, a gimmick offense in need of a committed champion now that Kelly is out of the league.

The bloom came off the rose in 2014. As defenses began to stifle the zone read and the 49ers grew concerned about the investment risk of a running quarterback, Jim Harbaugh's staff initiated a staunch commitment toward developing Kaepernick as a pocket passer. The transition was predictably fraught with growing pains, as a confused Kaepernick struggled with pre- and post-snap reads en route to a franchise-record 52 sacks.

Any realistic chance at a true metamorphosis withered on the vine as Harbaugh escaped to Michigan and the 49ers descended into ineptitude with an overmatched coaching staff and a depleted roster. As Rosenthal pointed out in his 2015 film study, the post-Harbaugh staff built an offense around Kaepernick's limitations, showing no confidence in his passing ability and field vision after a string of early-season struggles.

"When he was good, he had a good team around him," NFL Network analyst Charley Casserly recently explained. "They could run the ball, they could block for him, they could pass-protect, they had an outstanding defense and people couldn't defend the read option.

"People defended the read option, the offensive line fell apart, the defensive line fell apart, and they couldn't run the ball. He had problems reading defenses ... he had problems with his accuracy. It became more [pronounced] when he had to become a pure dropback quarterback and the game depended more on him than it did [when he was a first-year starter in 2012]. That's what teams saw. That's what teams have said to me. And that's what I see, too."


When Kelly arrived on the scene in January of 2016, he was widely hailed as Kap's personal savior, bound to induce nightmares in opposing defensive coordinators. Provided a custom-made offense tailored to amplify his strengths and hide his weaknesses, Kaepernick mixed occasional flashes of 2012-era brilliance with much longer stretches of ineffectiveness in a 2-14 season.

Now that Kelly and his zone-read attack have been banished from the NFL, teams are understandably skeptical that a quarterback riddled with deficiencies as a passer can refashion himself to operate within the structure of the pocket.

"If I'm a dropback team, this guy is just a guy to me," Casserly added. "Yeah, we can bring him in, he's another arm, we'll work with him. But I don't see a solution in this guy as a quarterback to be a starter in the National Football League from most of his tape."

Scouts and executives are charged with evaluating the game, not the name. The dysfunctional 49ers teams have won just four of Kaepernick's last 24 starts. The last time he exhibited sustained success, Dak Prescott was a sophomore at Mississippi State and Peyton Manning was a legitimate MVP candidate.

No one should be surprised that Kaepernick has been met with tumbleweeds after opting out of his San Francisco contract. He began his protest on the 49ers' bench, taking a backseat to a notable draft bust under center. The 32 NFL teams told us what they thought of his potential before his protest when they left him languishing on the trade block for the entirety of last offseason.
12-team Non-PPR QB, 2-RB, 3-WR, TE, K, DEF
QB: Luck, C Wentz
RB: David Johnson, N Chubb, D Guice, I Crowell, A Jones, P Barber
WR: Julio, A Robinson, M Evans, M Thomas, M Williams, JuJu, C Samuel, T Taylor, C Williams
TE: T Burton, D Njoku
K: Gostkowski
DEF: Zona

2019: 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Dynasty DeLorean » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 pm

Never Veto wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:16 pm
Dynasty DeLorean wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:47 am
Never Veto wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:36 am
Also no one is going to want a back up that brings a fire storm of media with them, ala Tim Tebow.
You say that but Tim Tebow was brought into Eagles camp and given a chance to compete for a roster spot.
Fair enough, but he wasn't signed was he? Also Tebow's "fire storm" has pretty much subsided, apparently so much that I didn't even know he got a tryout. If Kaepernick were to get a tryout or signed the media would have a field day. :lol: ESPN would probably call in Kaepernick day and play a week straight of it on loop. So they can be partially to blame for him not getting signed. You can also blame everyone that seems to be so worried on whether or not he gets a job.
Tebow played in all 4 games in the preseason. I don't think he made the 53 though. I don't think anyone is demanding Kaep be signed (well, i'm sure some people are but most reasonable people wouldn't be), it's more the fact that he hasn't been given a fair shake to compete for a roster spot given the sheer amount of terrible Qb's on rosters right now. I don't even think it would be that big of a deal if he were signed to be honest. The cover up is almost always worse than the crime. Once he's been given his fair due everyone would move on to the next thing to talk about.

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby maxhyde » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:28 pm

Talent is a tricky thing...doesn't guarantee you anything in the NFL and to be honest everyone in the NFL is talented.

Anyway I hear what you are saying that he "is as talented" as some of the guys starting but swapping one sub-par QB for another isn't exactly a ringing endorsement.
Bortles has a couple top 10 finishes in fantasy but he is one of those sub-par guys like Kaep. Physically, he is more than talented enough to play in the NFL but he isn't improving the way the team requires or, quite frankly, expect for what he is making.

I think the pay scale has to be figured into this and even junk QB's get pretty big $$ and backups nearly nothing at all. Easier and cheaper to hit the refresh button rather than recycle someone else's garbage because if you lose your starter your season is probably over anyway
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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Reljac » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:55 pm

Dynasty DeLorean wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 pm
The cover up is almost always worse than the crime. Once he's been given his fair due everyone would move on to the next thing to talk about.
You really think that if a team brought in Colin Kaepernick and Blake Bortles (or Matt Moore) and decided to go with the latter that the media and SJWs would just move on to the next thing to talk about?

There simply is no cover up. Teams wouldn't trade for him even before he protested. He was a read option QB that was horribly out of place in a modern NFL offense. Downfield passes were removed from the offense despite his arm because of his inefficiency. He couldn't anticipate throws like modern day NFL offenses that pass to where a player was going to be. He's just an atheletic strong arm dude with no passing talent.
12-team Non-PPR QB, 2-RB, 3-WR, TE, K, DEF
QB: Luck, C Wentz
RB: David Johnson, N Chubb, D Guice, I Crowell, A Jones, P Barber
WR: Julio, A Robinson, M Evans, M Thomas, M Williams, JuJu, C Samuel, T Taylor, C Williams
TE: T Burton, D Njoku
K: Gostkowski
DEF: Zona

2019: 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Concept Coop » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:00 pm

Reljac wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:19 pm
I think he sucks as a passer. The below says it a lot better than I can.
You keep moving the goal posts. He'd be in the league if not for the protesting.

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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby Friction » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:08 pm

Are we all really sure that if he got a tryout now and a team signed a perceived lesser talent instead of him, that that would be it. The protesters, the liberal media, etc. would say, "hey, he got a chance and did not fit into the team's plans or whatever". No way. It would be backlash, racism claims, and all that good stuff.
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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby clarion contrarion » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:08 pm

Reljac wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:55 pm
Dynasty DeLorean wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 pm
The cover up is almost always worse than the crime. Once he's been given his fair due everyone would move on to the next thing to talk about.
You really think that if a team brought in Colin Kaepernick and Blake Bortles (or Matt Moore) and decided to go with the latter that the media and SJWs would just move on to the next thing to talk about?

There simply is no cover up. Teams wouldn't trade for him even before he protested. He was a read option QB that was horribly out of place in a modern NFL offense. Downfield passes were removed from the offense despite his arm because of his inefficiency. He couldn't anticipate throws like modern day NFL offenses that pass to where a player was going to be. He's just an atheletic strong arm dude with no passing talent.
thread winner for reljac

that hassle just isn't worth the amount of help to a team ,this is tebow redux for different reasons but same bottom line. The media firestorm isn't worth it to any team to deal with the distractions. Jeff George far more talented than either didn't work and play well with others which flunks you out of kindergarten and the NFL as well. What team in their right senses want to answer 50 ? and have every SJW (people that don't know a slant route from a paper route) and media outlet swarming their locker room asking social issue questions. The NFL already places ridiculous media obligations on its help let alone volunteering the players to answer stupid questions about things they cannot control and end up damned if they answer and damned if they don't.
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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby ericanadian » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:19 pm

Denver was ready to sign him before the protest, they just weren't going to meet the 49ers price. I think the Kaep hate is hilarious. Comparing him to RGIII? RGIII threw 2 TDs in 5 games and was clearly the worst QB on the Browns. THE BROWNS!!!

Arguing the 49ers wanted to see what they had in Gabbert? Come on, we all know what Gabbert brings to the table and so did that coaching staff. It wasn't anything you wanted on an NFL field and Kaep's performance was miles ahead of Gabbert. It was a desperation move by a coach trying to keep his job.

Kaep's TD% was the second best of his career. His Int% was the best of his career. That was after a slow start while he got his shoulder back in shape. His YPA was down, but mainly because he didn't have the time to go downfield that he had under Harbaugh. Statistically, Kaep was as good as he ever was last year. The one area he struggled was in fumbles and that's a legit criticism because he did what he always did and held on to the ball too long trying to make plays. That said, it's not a new problem.

I don't like Kaep as a quarterback and I never really did. That said, he didn't seem any worse to me last year than when he was taking his team to the Superbowl and I know a lot of teams were all over his talent when that was the case. He's way better than Gabbert or RGIII.

His best comparable is probably Mike Vick and its downright pathetic that murdering dogs is looked upon as a lesser offense than kneeling during the anthem.
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Re: Kaepernick vs NFL - Collusion

Postby dm1129 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:50 pm

ericanadian wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:19 pm
Denver was ready to sign him before the protest, they just weren't going to meet the 49ers price. I think the Kaep hate is hilarious. Comparing him to RGIII? RGIII threw 2 TDs in 5 games and was clearly the worst QB on the Browns. THE BROWNS!!!

Arguing the 49ers wanted to see what they had in Gabbert? Come on, we all know what Gabbert brings to the table and so did that coaching staff. It wasn't anything you wanted on an NFL field and Kaep's performance was miles ahead of Gabbert. It was a desperation move by a coach trying to keep his job.

Kaep's TD% was the second best of his career. His Int% was the best of his career. That was after a slow start while he got his shoulder back in shape. His YPA was down, but mainly because he didn't have the time to go downfield that he had under Harbaugh. Statistically, Kaep was as good as he ever was last year. The one area he struggled was in fumbles and that's a legit criticism because he did what he always did and held on to the ball too long trying to make plays. That said, it's not a new problem.

I don't like Kaep as a quarterback and I never really did. That said, he didn't seem any worse to me last year than when he was taking his team to the Superbowl and I know a lot of teams were all over his talent when that was the case. He's way better than Gabbert or RGIII.

His best comparable is probably Mike Vick and its downright pathetic that murdering dogs is looked upon as a lesser offense than kneeling during the anthem.
There is a fatal flaw comparing Kaep to Vick, or for that matter any other player with past off field issues. Kaep's 'baggage' is an ongoing issue....If Vick was still actively into dogfighting after serving his prison term and concurrently was looking to return to the NFL, then that would be comparable. I personally agree with Kaep completely, however if I was an NFL owner and knew that a significant portion of the consumer base for my team found Kaep's protest during the anthem strongly offensive and could result in lost revenue, that would be an easy decision not to sign based on his marginal talent. It is honestly kind of puzzling how so many posters do not understand this.


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