Forte v L. Miller

[doktor]

1.
Forte has proven his talent at the NFL level.
Miller has not.
1.03 has not.

2.
Forte owns a starting position on an NFL team.
Miller has been mentioned as "he's going to get his chance". That's it.
1.03 has not.

3.
Forte is in a decent offense, with a coach who has stated he has been underused.
Miller is in an offense that is improving, with no guarantees of his use.
1.03 is not.


How is this close again?
If you want production and a known quantity, there's no question you take Forte.
If you're rebuilding or like to take risks with upside, then I wouldn't blame you for taking the Miller side; but buyer beware.

[TheOracle]

I'm sorry that you are always so closed minded that you can't imagine that anyone wouldn't be buying in on the L.Miller hype. I know you aren't able to accept things that differ from your point of view, so there isn't a point in discussing it with you any further.

So sensitive, always taking everything personally. I wonder if that's related to the fact that you deal in anecdotes and narrative inspired drivel rather than facts. I know you've been around here for ever, and really, congrats on your long-term prevalence on an online forum, really, but I can't imagine any objective observer thinks this type of rude, defensive behavior is actually appropriate in a forum moderator. I'm not exaggerating when I say that you're the only one who acts this way, and I think it's reasonable to suggest that having an overly sensitive, readily combative member moderate the forum drags down the quality of the discussion. Even that statement suggest you want to end the discussion rather than further it.

Miller has never been relevant, so it's a pretty big stretch to me to then assume he's going to be relevant for longer than Forte. One should actually gain the status of relevant, before they can do it longer. That is what I find ridiculous.

Anyways, the bolded statement is another especially misguided statement that I think the readers here deserve better than. For instance, David Wilson has never been relevant either, but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest he'll be relevant for longer than, say, Frank Gore. Examples like that make it especially dumb to say things like "one should actually gain the status of relevant, before they can do it longer". It's the same type of anecdotal garbage that you propagate on a regular basis while racking up posts entirely devoid of anything useful. Rather than giving us tangible reasons not to like Miller (his history of injuries, the fact that he runs relatively upright, the possibility of Miami bringing in another back, etc.) you gave us crap like "all hype and coach speak". That's not useful to anybody, it's just a narrative that you're propagating. Similarly, with Forte, instead of talking about his upside in Trestman's offense, the fact that RBs with Forte's skill set can age more gracefully because he doesn't rely on skills that decline rapidly, etc., you said "he's a top 10 RB" and left it at that.

In short, your posts aren't helpful to anybody because you don't qualify your opinions and you don't deal in anything deeper than narratives (unproven herpderp vs. established herpderp) or anecdotal evidence ("coach speak and hype" and "Top 10 RB!!!1!one"). Furthermore, as a moderator, you're openly combative, overly sensitive, and seek to end discussions rather than further them, which inherently hurts the quality of discourse here.

[sehon4]

jhatt3 it all depends on what your current roster looks like. If you have two other good backs then trade Forte for the upside Miller plus the high draft pick. However if Forte is the only viable back that you have keep him and try to draft a young compliment to go with him. Forte is a good all round back who still has another 5 years of good use.
Too many folks trade good players away too soon. For instance AP is 28 years old and I am not trading him. What I have done is to make sure that I structure my team such that when one player is aging another younger one is already on board to take his place. AP is 28, DMac is 26, Ingram is 23 and Miller is 22. Gone is Turner who is 31. That way Ingram and Miller have time to develop behind AP and DMac just as DMac developed behind Turner. Same for my QB where Ryan developed behind Schaub until he took over the starting role this past year. Now I need someone to develop behind Ryan and phase out Schaub.
If you plan right you will be competitive for years and would be re stocking instead of always rebuilding. I do not rebuild I restock. 2 second place finishes and 1 third place in the past 4 years. Play offs 5 out of the past 6 years.

[dlf_jacobf]

It seems a lot of people have been knocking Miller simply for the fact that he's gotten a lot of hype lately. If you don't like him because youve seen something in his style that you that don't like, or don't trust Miami's line and/or surrounding cast, that's fine, valid reasons not to value the guy highly. But to keep downing him simply on the fact that he is getting a ton of hype is just lazy and stupid. Personally I have been on board with Miller since well before the hype started, he was my #2 RB last year off film behind Richardson. Not trying to say I'm a scout or anything close, he was just my fav RB after watching them all. Now he has opportunity to start(hopefully), and the train got rolling. Now it just seems like the "hip" thing to do is be the guy that goes against the grain and hate on the hype. That's fine, but give me some kind of reason other than "we haven't seen him do anything yet". You know what other elite RB you also never saw do anything at the NFL level untill they did? ALL of them!

I don't think it is because of the hype that people are knocking Miller. I think it is because the hype has pushed up his market value to the point where many feel it is too risky. In other words, his market value is above what many feel his actual value will end up being. At this point, buying someone like MIller and not buying him pretty much comes down to if you're a gambler or not. Big risk with his current price tag, big reward if you're right. Personally, I'm one that isn't willing to pay the current price tag. I just prefer a track record before I spend major resources to get someone. My gambles tend to be more on moderately priced players like Crabtree before last season. Everyone has their own style.

[sehon4]

Just acquire him like I did with the 2.09 draft pick in 2012 rookie draft and keep him on your roster all year and you won't have any worries. hehehe. Miller is a 5-11" 218lbs RB with 4.40-40 speed. He has been promised the feature role this year in Miami, an up and coming offense if the guys who are now in Mia can duplicate the kind of offense they ran in GB. Given the opportunity (he has the talent) he should/will do well. His coaches and the GM all think highly of him plus they drafted him. They allowed Reggie Bush to walk so they must know something. Reggie Bush ended up signing a 4 year 16 mill contract with Detroit @ 4 million/year not expensive so Mia could have kept him but they didn't so they know something. That something is Lamar Miller. Coming into last year's draft only one back was ranked ahead of him and that back was TRich.
I.Peade 5-10"' 197lbs back, doesn't have 4.40 speed and it seems as if a lot of folks think he is better than Miller and he is not. Same with R.Hillman 5-9"' 200lbs. Both Denver and St. Louis have stated that they will draft another bigger back this year to team with these two. I haven't heard the same out of Mia. I have heard them speak negatively about D.Thomas and openly question his ability as a goal line back. Not so with L.Miller. D.Wilson 5-10"' 206lbs although drafted in the 1st round will share carries with A.Brown and will certainly be replaced at the goal line.
I have heard arguments against Miller due to his lack of work but not so for the three backs mentioned above. Here is each back 2012 body of work:

I.Peade 10 rushes, 54 yards, 0 TDs and 3 rec, 16 yards, 0 TDs
R.Hillman 84 rushes, 327 yards, 1TD and 10 rec, 62 yards, 0 TDs
D. Wilson 71 rushes, 358 yards, 4 TDs and 4 rec, 34 yards, 1 TD
L. Miller 51 rushes, 250 yards, 1 TD and 6 rec, 45 yards 0 TD.

None of these backs have a strong body of work so it is all based on promise and their potential coming into the NFL draft. There is no reason for guys on this forum to be down grading Miller and upgrading the other 3 as I have seen in the comments on this website. If I did not have Miller and wanted him would I trade away a 1.3, or 1.4 or 1.5 2013 draft pick for him? Mostly I would but I will wait until after the NFL draft to see where the rookies are going to be.

[Igwebuike 4 Prez]

Both Denver and St. Louis have stated that they will draft another bigger back this year to team with these two.

Not to derail the topic of the thread, but this is simply untrue.

Neither team has said anything like this.

Just saying. If sticking to facts is the aim here, this runs contrary that.

[sehon4]

Both Denver and St. Louis have stated that they will draft another bigger back this year to team with these two.

Not to derail the topic of the thread, but this is simply untrue.

Neither team has said anything like this.

Just saying. If sticking to facts is the aim here, this runs contrary that.

story


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Broncos | Interested in Christine Michael Fri Apr 5, 02:15 PM

The Denver Broncos have shown interest in Texas A&M RB Christine Michael.




Our view: Michael would be an interesting add for the Broncos. He's a big back with a hard charging style that some compare to former Packers RB Ahman Green. Michael has durability issues but would give the Broncos the big RB they've been looking for.



Link to story



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Broncos | High on Le'Veon Bell Fri Apr 5, 02:12 PM

The Denver Broncos have expressed a lot of interest in Michigan State RB Le'Veon Bell and have conducted a private workout with him.




Our view: Bell could be a pick for the Broncos in the mid-round of this year's draft. He's a big RB who reminds some of former Giants RB Brandon Jacobs. Bell is athletic for a big man and has the feet to be more elusive than some think. However, he's not an instant power back and needs a head of steam to gain power. The Broncos are looking for a big RB for their RBBC. This news is not good for the outlook of Willis McGahee.

Rams | Likely to add more RBs before camp Fri Mar 22, 10:24 PM
The St. Louis Rams are likely to add more running backs to the roster before the start of training camp, as the team has only RBs Terrance Ganaway and Chase Reynolds on the roster after RBs Isaiah Pead

[doktor]

To say that a site, and forum, such as this should not include opinions, or anecdotes, is a little off base. We should stick to the facts only? So something like this then?

Q: I have been offered L.Miller and the 2013 1.3 for M.Forte straight up. Thoughts?
A: Do not do it. L.Miller had a 51/250/1 rushing line and a 6/45/0 receiving line last year. The 1.3 did not have any lines last year. M.Forte had a 248/1094/5 rushing line and a 44/340/1 receiving line last year.

It's ludicrous. No interpretation of the stats, numbers, and facts, means anything without opinion. We weigh into our opinion with a players' past performance, their skill, their situation, their surrounding and supporting cast, and many other factors; and we come to our own conclusion of that players' value. Facts alone is not why we play, or else everybody would value players the same and there would be no variation or awesomeness in what we do.

Opinions get heated. People are passionate about their opinions. The nature of what we do here with our pretend football teams necessitate our opinions, and often times we discuss, ask for, and rebuke each others' opinions. That's essentially what we do on almost every post. Nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. But there is also no room in a public forum like this to misplace your opinion of someone else's opinion as an opportunity, or need, to attack that other poster personally. It shows immaturity and a lack of the thought process to understand and appreciate what other people are thinking. If you don't want to hear someone else's opinion, a public forum is probably not the place for you.


I realize I am being a little extreme here; but as someone not directly involved in the issue that seems to have occurred in this thread, I am hopeful that all sides can stand back and just offer a sort of "My bad bro, you're right. We'll just agree to disagree." kind of thing and put it behind us. I make every effort to respect the opinions of those posting here. I don't want that to be "tainted" by having to filter through the online arguments just to find those opinions.

[italian_stallion21]

The problem with those stories is they may or may be smoke screens to get other teams to jump the gun with their picks, or trade up etc. You really have no idea what those teams are actually thinking. If I believed everything I read I'd have the worst fantasy teams ever.

[Igwebuike 4 Prez]

sehon4,

It is a big jump from stories about teams "expressing interest" in players to saying those teams have stated they WILL draft a player.

[TheOracle]

To say that a site, and forum, such as this should not include opinions, or anecdotes, is a little off base. We should stick to the facts only? So something like this then?

Q: I have been offered L.Miller and the 2013 1.3 for M.Forte straight up. Thoughts?
A: Do not do it. L.Miller had a 51/250/1 rushing line and a 6/45/0 receiving line last year. The 1.3 did not have any lines last year. M.Forte had a 248/1094/5 rushing line and a 44/340/1 receiving line last year.

It's ludicrous. No interpretation of the stats, numbers, and facts, means anything without opinion. We weigh into our opinion with a players' past performance, their skill, their situation, their surrounding and supporting cast, and many other factors; and we come to our own conclusion of that players' value. Facts alone is not why we play, or else everybody would value players the same and there would be no variation or awesomeness in what we do.

Opinions get heated. People are passionate about their opinions. The nature of what we do here with our pretend football teams necessitate our opinions, and often times we discuss, ask for, and rebuke each others' opinions. That's essentially what we do on almost every post. Nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. But there is also no room in a public forum like this to misplace your opinion of someone else's opinion as an opportunity, or need, to attack that other poster personally. It shows immaturity and a lack of the thought process to understand and appreciate what other people are thinking. If you don't want to hear someone else's opinion, a public forum is probably not the place for you.


I realize I am being a little extreme here; but as someone not directly involved in the issue that seems to have occurred in this thread, I am hopeful that all sides can stand back and just offer a sort of "My bad bro, you're right. We'll just agree to disagree." kind of thing and put it behind us. I make every effort to respect the opinions of those posting here. I don't want that to be "tainted" by having to filter through the online arguments just to find those opinions.

Way to miss the point bro. Everything is an opinion. It's not about sharing your opinion, it's about what your opinion is supported by. Obviously the idea isn't to only report facts, that's a horribly reductionist strawman argument you're taking apart. I don't know if you just wanted to argue or if you misinterpreted my point that badly. Again, opinions are good, we should share them, etc., but throwing your opinion out there without justifying it at all doesn't help anybody.

The point is that if I say "TAKE LAMAR MILLER BECUZ THE DOLLFINS ARE THE BEST AND TEH BEARS SUX", well, that's an opinion, but it's not helpful to anybody, because I haven't qualified it appropriately. If I said something like "take Miller and the 1.03 because given Miller's body of work last year, his rare combination of size and speed, and the potential value of the 1.03 I'd expect you to win the trade" that's also an opinion, but there are facts behind it. Saying "Miller is all hype, Forte is a Top 10 RB," well, that's anecdotal and barely more helpful than "BEARS SUX". Do you understand the difference now?

[doktor]

To say that a site, and forum, such as this should not include opinions, or anecdotes, is a little off base. We should stick to the facts only? So something like this then?

Q: I have been offered L.Miller and the 2013 1.3 for M.Forte straight up. Thoughts?
A: Do not do it. L.Miller had a 51/250/1 rushing line and a 6/45/0 receiving line last year. The 1.3 did not have any lines last year. M.Forte had a 248/1094/5 rushing line and a 44/340/1 receiving line last year.

It's ludicrous. No interpretation of the stats, numbers, and facts, means anything without opinion. We weigh into our opinion with a players' past performance, their skill, their situation, their surrounding and supporting cast, and many other factors; and we come to our own conclusion of that players' value. Facts alone is not why we play, or else everybody would value players the same and there would be no variation or awesomeness in what we do.

Opinions get heated. People are passionate about their opinions. The nature of what we do here with our pretend football teams necessitate our opinions, and often times we discuss, ask for, and rebuke each others' opinions. That's essentially what we do on almost every post. Nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. But there is also no room in a public forum like this to misplace your opinion of someone else's opinion as an opportunity, or need, to attack that other poster personally. It shows immaturity and a lack of the thought process to understand and appreciate what other people are thinking. If you don't want to hear someone else's opinion, a public forum is probably not the place for you.


I realize I am being a little extreme here; but as someone not directly involved in the issue that seems to have occurred in this thread, I am hopeful that all sides can stand back and just offer a sort of "My bad bro, you're right. We'll just agree to disagree." kind of thing and put it behind us. I make every effort to respect the opinions of those posting here. I don't want that to be "tainted" by having to filter through the online arguments just to find those opinions.

Way to miss the point bro. Everything is an opinion. It's not about sharing your opinion, it's about what your opinion is supported by. Obviously the idea isn't to only report facts, that's a horribly reductionist strawman argument you're taking apart. I don't know if you just wanted to argue or if you misinterpreted my point that badly. Again, opinions are good, we should share them, etc., but throwing your opinion out there without justifying it at all doesn't help anybody.

The point is that if I say "TAKE LAMAR MILLER BECUZ THE DOLLFINS ARE THE BEST AND TEH BEARS SUX", well, that's an opinion, but it's not helpful to anybody, because I haven't qualified it appropriately. If I said something like "take Miller and the 1.03 because given Miller's body of work last year, his rare combination of size and speed, and the potential value of the 1.03 I'd expect you to win the trade" that's also an opinion, but there are facts behind it. Saying "Miller is all hype, Forte is a Top 10 RB," well, that's anecdotal and barely more helpful than "BEARS SUX". Do you understand the difference now?

I understood the difference before. I'm also pretty sure I'm not the one missing the point. My point is I don't want to come to these forums and have to filter through offensive, attacking garbage. If I wanted that I'd go read YouTube comments all day.

Don't drag me into your arguments. For my benefit, the benefit of the other posters, and the overall atmosphere of the forums, enough with the aggressive BS. Keep it to constructive and courteous comments or don't comment at all.

[tstafford]

All,

I've decided to permanently ban The Oracle from DLF. Please know that he and I had a lengthy discussion about my expectations for his behavior on the forum several weeks ago. He agreed to tone his rhetoric down, but apparently couldn't or wouldn't do so. Enough is enough. This community deserves better. It's too bad because he actually has a good sense for the game of football and fantasy, but mutual respect is more important at the end of the day.

Tim

[MikeBfo20]

All,

I've decided to permanently ban The Oracle from DLF. Please know that he and I had a lengthy discussion about my expectations for his behavior on the forum several weeks ago. He agreed to tone his rhetoric down, but apparently couldn't or wouldn't do so. Enough is enough. This community deserves better. It's too bad because he actually has a good sense for the game of football and fantasy, but mutual respect is more important at the end of the day.

Tim

Dang, I had a feeling something like that was gunna happen.

Still, don't trade Forte for Miller.

[sehon4]

Hi Tim

That is a bit extreme. After all this is the USA. Everyone is entitled to their opinion even the KKK or Black Panthers or any other anti social group out there. There is freedom of speech. This is not North Korea or Iran. Please give the man a break.