ODB Trade offer

[harr]

At this point, Cooper is still just projection and hype. OBJ is record setting production, causing the hype. Huge difference. It blows my mind when people act like there shouldn't be a massive value gap between the 2. Because of OBJ's combo of youth and production, it should be OBJ alone in the top tier of dynasty, then a massive tier gap between himself and whoever you have rated the #2 dynasty asset. If it's somebody like AB, OBJ still gets a bump due to age. If it's somebody like Coop or Evans, OBJ still gets the huge bump due to proven production. if he is somehow attainable in a league, it should be at a price that makes the acquiring owner want to vomit.

All that being said, Cooper + 3 1sts is too much due to Cooper's perceived value lol. But I would have no problem giving Cooper + 2 1sts. Let others chase projection all they want. I'll take the guy who's basically the same age and setting records.

No disrespect whatsoever, but the top half of your post is misguided. Cooper put up HUGE numbers in his rookie season. Literally. He had the fifth greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, statistically speaking. Like...of all time. So your statement of Cooper not actually producing so far in the NFL is plain incorrect. The problem here is that you're comparing him with the guy who had the second greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, in OBJ. The difference between the two players is definitely not three 1st round picks. I agree with what skip said above. Cooper plus a 1st and 2nd is fair value. Anything more is an overpay, and Cooper and three 1sts is ridiculous.

[Alex116]

I like both AC and ODB, a lot. With that, I'd be instantly saying no if I'm the Cooper owner and that was proposed to me. Cooper and two 1sts, you may have my attention and I'd have to consider it, but 3 firsts is insane on top of a top 10ish WR.

[Coogan Football]

Way too much. If the difference is that great you are best holding what you have

I agree, I would do something like Cooper+ (2) 1sts for OBJ + 3rd

[derekhiny]

At this point, Cooper is still just projection and hype. OBJ is record setting production, causing the hype. Huge difference. It blows my mind when people act like there shouldn't be a massive value gap between the 2. Because of OBJ's combo of youth and production, it should be OBJ alone in the top tier of dynasty, then a massive tier gap between himself and whoever you have rated the #2 dynasty asset. If it's somebody like AB, OBJ still gets a bump due to age. If it's somebody like Coop or Evans, OBJ still gets the huge bump due to proven production. if he is somehow attainable in a league, it should be at a price that makes the acquiring owner want to vomit.

All that being said, Cooper + 3 1sts is too much due to Cooper's perceived value lol. But I would have no problem giving Cooper + 2 1sts. Let others chase projection all they want. I'll take the guy who's basically the same age and setting records.

No disrespect whatsoever, but the top half of your post is misguided. Cooper put up HUGE numbers in his rookie season. Literally. He had the fifth greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, statistically speaking. Like...of all time. So your statement of Cooper not actually producing so far in the NFL is plain incorrect. The problem here is that you're comparing him with the guy who had the second greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, in OBJ. The difference between the two players is definitely not three 1st round picks. I agree with what skip said above. Cooper plus a 1st and 2nd is fair value. Anything more is an overpay, and Cooper and three 1sts is ridiculous.

To be fair, I also said I would not pay 3 1sts. But to your point, the gap between Cooper's rookie season (5th best) and what OBJ did in his, in 4 less games mind you, was quite substantial. A WR3 season vs an elite WR1 season, and god only knows what the numbers would have been if he didn't miss those first 4 games. Then "consolidated the break", to use a tennis term, in his 2nd season. I'm a Cooper owner, so I'm not hating. But as far as the projection vs production debate goes, yes there is still a monstrous gap between the two. One WR needs a massive uptick in production to be anywhere close to what the other WR has already done. Twice. People get so wrapped up in rankings. "This guy is a 1st round startup pick! No way the gap should ever be more than blah blah blah to OBJ". Whereas, I respectfully disagree. I think the value gap between the #1 dynasty asset and the rest of the 1st round is equivalent to multiple round gaps the later you go. Meaning, I think players 20 and 40 are closer together value wise than OBJ and somebody like player 8. I'll be interested to see a debate like this again next offseason, if/when OBJ yet again puts together another elite WR1 season at age 23. And Cooper maybe hits WR2 territory of actual production. Eventually, people are going to need to realize that, holy bleep, OBJ's blend of youth and already elite production makes him the most valuable dynasty asset on the planet by a substantial margin, significantly worth more than everybody else trying to get there, or already there but approaching 30. And that needs to be paid for until it hurts. Otherwise, move along and keep building with Cooper's projection and hoping that you actually hit on all your draft picks. Which isn't a knock, by any means. Just far more uncertain. As I said before, people can keep chasing the projections of the Evans and Coopers of the dynasty world. Myself, I'd have no problems paying the premium to acquire the other guy, and already knowing EXACTLY what the upside I'll be getting for the next 8 years is. Difference of philosophy, I suppose.

[Eight7Seven]

No disrespect whatsoever, but the top half of your post is misguided. Cooper put up HUGE numbers in his rookie season. Literally. He had the fifth greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, statistically speaking. Like...of all time. So your statement of Cooper not actually producing so far in the NFL is plain incorrect. The problem here is that you're comparing him with the guy who had the second greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, in OBJ. The difference between the two players is definitely not three 1st round picks. I agree with what skip said above. Cooper plus a 1st and 2nd is fair value. Anything more is an overpay, and Cooper and three 1sts is ridiculous.

I'm a bit of an NFL historian. YPC means yards per catch. I should have used yards per reception but I didn't want to fight my auto correct the whole way through this list.

• Randy Moss: 69 Receptions, 19 YPC, 17 TD's (rookie record)
  
  Odell Beckham Jr (12 games): 90 receptions, 14.5 YPC, 12 touchdowns
  
  Bill Growman (14 game regular season) 72 receptions, 20.4 YPC, 12 TD's
  
  Billy Howton(14 game regular season): 53 receptions, 23.1 YPC, 13 TD's (then rookie record)
  
  Bob Hayes(14 game regular season): 46 receptions, 21.8 YPC, 12 TD's
  
  John Jefferson: 57 receptions, 17.8 YPC, 13 TD's
  
  Mike Evans: 68 receptions, 15.5 YPC, 12 TD's
  
  Sammy White(14 games regular season): 51 receptions, 17.6 YPC, 10 TD's
  
  Anquon Boldin: 101 receptions(rookie record), 13.2 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Bill Brooks: 65 Receptions, 17.4 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Michael Clayton: 80 receptions, 14.9 YPC, 7 TD's
  
  Keenan Allen: 71 Receptions, 14.8, YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Marques Colston(12 games): 70 receptions, 14.8 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Chris Collinsworth: 67 receptions, 15 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Eddie Brown: 53 receptions, 17.7 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Kelvin Benjamin: 71 receptions, 14.1 YPC, 9 TD's
  
  AJ Green: 65 receptions, 16.3 YPC, 7 TD's
  
  Terry Glenn (15 Games): 90 receptions (then rookie record), 12.5 YPC, 6 TD's
  
  Amari Cooper: 72 receptions, 14.8 YPC, 6 TD's

[derekhiny]

No disrespect whatsoever, but the top half of your post is misguided. Cooper put up HUGE numbers in his rookie season. Literally. He had the fifth greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, statistically speaking. Like...of all time. So your statement of Cooper not actually producing so far in the NFL is plain incorrect. The problem here is that you're comparing him with the guy who had the second greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, in OBJ. The difference between the two players is definitely not three 1st round picks. I agree with what skip said above. Cooper plus a 1st and 2nd is fair value. Anything more is an overpay, and Cooper and three 1sts is ridiculous.

I'm a bit of an NFL historian. YPC means yards per catch. I should have used yards per reception but I didn't want to fight my auto correct the whole way through this list.

• Randy Moss: 69 Receptions, 19 YPC, 17 TD's (rookie record)
  
  Odell Beckham Jr (12 games): 90 receptions, 14.5 YPC, 12 touchdowns
  
  Bill Growman (14 game regular season) 72 receptions, 20.4 YPC, 12 TD's
  
  Billy Howton(14 game regular season): 53 receptions, 23.1 YPC, 13 TD's (then rookie record)
  
  Bob Hayes(14 game regular season): 46 receptions, 21.8 YPC, 12 TD's
  
  John Jefferson: 57 receptions, 17.8 YPC, 13 TD's
  
  Mike Evans: 68 receptions, 15.5 YPC, 12 TD's
  
  Sammy White(14 games regular season): 51 receptions, 17.6 YPC, 10 TD's
  
  Anquon Boldin: 101 receptions(rookie record), 13.2 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Bill Brooks: 65 Receptions, 17.4 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Michael Clayton: 80 receptions, 14.9 YPC, 7 TD's
  
  Keenan Allen: 71 Receptions, 14.8, YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Marques Colston(12 games): 70 receptions, 14.8 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Chris Collinsworth: 67 receptions, 15 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Eddie Brown: 53 receptions, 17.7 YPC, 8 TD's
  
  Kelvin Benjamin: 71 receptions, 14.1 YPC, 9 TD's
  
  AJ Green: 65 receptions, 16.3 YPC, 7 TD's
  
  Terry Glenn (15 Games): 90 receptions (then rookie record), 12.5 YPC, 6 TD's
  
  Amari Cooper: 72 receptions, 14.8 YPC, 6 TD's

To be fair, another point he probably could have made, Cooper does hold the record for most receptions by a WR aged 21 years or younger. But I don't really see that as having any relevance to this debate of value with only a one year age gap between the 2, and OBJ putting up 19 more receptions, 230 more yards, and 6 more TDs (in 4 less games) his rookie year at age 21/22. And technically, OBJ was 21 years old until November of his rookie season anyways. Had OBJ's b-day been two months later, Cooper would have never sniffed the aged 21 and younger WR record. Yes, what Cooper did was historically great, but in context compared to OBJ, OBJ is on another stratosphere. Which is why he is virtually impossible to attain without an offer that makes you want to cry. As it should be.

[Eight7Seven]

To be fair, another point he probably could have made, Cooper does hold the record for most receptions by a WR aged 21 years or younger. But I don't really see that as having any relevance to this debate of value with only a one year age gap between the 2, and OBJ putting up 19 more receptions, 230 more yards, and 6 more TDs (in 4 less games) his rookie year at age 21/22. And technically, OBJ was 21 years old until November of his rookie season anyways. Had OBJ's b-day been two months later, Cooper would have never sniffed the aged 21 and younger WR record. Yes, what Cooper did was historically great, but in context compared to OBJ, OBJ is on another stratosphere. Which is why he is virtually impossible to attain without an offer that makes you want to cry.

While it's nice of you to try to give his statement the benefit of the doubt, I don't think it's possible in this situation. There is a world of difference between

Cooper put up HUGE numbers in his rookie season. Literally. He had the fifth greatest rookie season by a WR in NFL history, statistically speaking. Like...of all time.

And most receptions by a receiver who is twenty one year old or younger. The NFL requires a prospect to be three years removed from high-school & have (directly from http://operations.nfl.com/the-players/t ... the-draft/) used up their college eligibility to be eligible for the NFL draft. Adding or younger to 21 is just extra fluff. There have been a handful of players younger then 21, but all the ones that come to mind for me immigrated from another country and graduated from high school at a young age.

[Eight7Seven]

I want to be clear that just because Cooper had a less amazing rookie season then Odell, does not mean he is incapable of becoming a better receiver then Odell. Jerry Rice, Calvin Johnson, Antonio Brown & even Julio Jones (54 receptions, 17.8 YPC, 8 TD's) had inferior statistical rookie seasons to most of the players on this list. That does not mean they became worse players or even by comparing their rookie seasons they had worse showings. Every player is at a different point in their individual development as a rookie & sometimes team situation, offensive scheme and draft stock has a bigger impact on a rookies performance then we'd like to admit.

I think the unanimous (myself included) conclusion by this thread is that Cooper plus three first round picks is too rich for any player in any sized dynasty league. Cooper had a great rookie season. Being able to start Amari Cooper with confidence as a rookie receiver was the exception, not the rule. I think AC will have a better showing in his second season and will continue to be a great dynasty asset.

[JohnDoe]

I would pass

[harr]

I think the unanimous (myself included) conclusion by this thread is that Cooper plus three first round picks is too rich for any player in any sized dynasty league. Cooper had a great rookie season. Being able to start Amari Cooper with confidence as a rookie receiver was the exception, not the rule. I think AC will have a better showing in his second season and will continue to be a great dynasty asset.

This was my point. I agree on all of this. Nice job 877 summing it up better than I did.