Isaiah Crowell (Please ignore 49ersFaithful80)

[dm1129]

Things can change, but a few weeks ago, Kyle Shanahan said that he wanted someone to separate themselves. Then, after Sunday's game, Pettine said that when you watch the film of all 3, and the way they practice, he felt West deserved the most carries. Over the last 2 games the carries look like this.

West- 41
Tate-20
Crowell-12

It appears that this coaching staff believe that West is deserving of the most carries by quite a large margin, at least for now. I still believe that Crowell will bypass Tate, and the two rookies will be featured more often in the future, BUT, I believe West is much more likely to be the lead back. He does not run as "angry" as Crowell, but is much more fluid and has very good vision and sets up blocks better IMO. He seems to have much more trust from the coaches, as exemplified by his near fumble on the TD not affecting the fact that in the late part of the game it was him getting the rock to wear down the clock. West definitely looks more than "just another guy", as someone stated. He is a bell cow type back who has proven in college to be able to rack up the carries and keep on ticking, and 26 carries in a big divisional game shows how much the coaches like/trust him already. He is built to be an AFC North running back, and playing his college ball at Townson (Baltimore) in bad weather definitely helps his cause.

For the sake of discussion, let's say West is more fluid and has very good vision and sets up his blocks better. If that is the case, why is his ypc a yard less than Crowell? The league average ypc is around 4.1, yet West is at 3.70(3.24 after opening day). A bell cow back is one who can handle a heavy workload AND produce. West has yet to prove he can produce. The best case scenario on any carry for West is to get what is blocked for him, nothing more. The issue for Crowell is ball security. His explosiveness and ability to gain yards is evident. If West does not improve and Crowell cannot hold onto the ball, the RB of the future for the Browns may not even be on the roster currently.

[snitchinsider]

For the sake of discussion, let's say West is more fluid and has very good vision and sets up his blocks better. If that is the case, why is his ypc a yard less than Crowell? The league average ypc is around 4.1, yet West is at 3.70(3.24 after opening day). A bell cow back is one who can handle a heavy workload AND produce. West has yet to prove he can produce. The best case scenario on any carry for West is to get what is blocked for him, nothing more. The issue for Crowell is ball security. His explosiveness and ability to gain yards is evident. If West does not improve and Crowell cannot hold onto the ball, the RB of the future for the Browns may not even be on the roster currently.

This has been my concern with West as well. Mind you, his performance problems aren't just limited to nearly-everything after week one. This was also an issue for him in preseason, with four games of 2.2, 3.9, 2.4, and 2.2 yards per carry. This is when he began to earn his "East-to-West" moniker among some fans.

That said, I thought West's night was essentially unmemorable up until grinding out the clock late in the game. I thought he showed power in some of his runs that he didn't flash as well in previous games. There's also something to be said about not overvaluing YPC. Guys like LeVeon Bell suffered from an atrocious YPC in his rookie season (albeit with an injury). Guys like Marshawn Lynch are perennially at a flat four-yards-per-carry, but are still considered elite because it's how and when you get the yards, and with what consistency for powerful backs as much as it is anything else (no doubt teams focus heavily on Marshawn Lynch, which also hurts his YPC) as they don't often have the huge plays to stretch their average. What makes Crowell so interesting is that for a "big boy" his explosiveness is absurdly good.

You pretty much have to eyeball these things when deciding why someone has a poor YPC, if it can improve, which back has the most upside etc. On the same amount of carries, I thought Crowell was far and away the best back last night from a per-play performance perspective (tackled from penetration behind the line doesn't help when you have a small sample size of carries, however). West wasn't even in the conversation until he started getting into the territory of double the carries to hit a few solid runs while wrapping up the game.

I thought both made excellent plays on their touchdowns, however. And it's clear at this point they don't trust Crowell to hang on to the ball. They were electing to use him as the hot-hand up until that non-fumble. That's a pretty big indictment on the coaching staff's feelings about Crowell's ball security that a legit non-fumble was treated just the same as a fumble.

[dm1129]

For the sake of discussion, let's say West is more fluid and has very good vision and sets up his blocks better. If that is the case, why is his ypc a yard less than Crowell? The league average ypc is around 4.1, yet West is at 3.70(3.24 after opening day). A bell cow back is one who can handle a heavy workload AND produce. West has yet to prove he can produce. The best case scenario on any carry for West is to get what is blocked for him, nothing more. The issue for Crowell is ball security. His explosiveness and ability to gain yards is evident. If West does not improve and Crowell cannot hold onto the ball, the RB of the future for the Browns may not even be on the roster currently.

This has been my concern with West as well. Mind you, his performance problems aren't just limited to nearly-everything after week one. This was also an issue for him in preseason, with four games of 2.2, 3.9, 2.4, and 2.2 yards per carry. This is when he began to earn his "East-to-West" moniker among some fans.

That said, I thought West's night was essentially unmemorable up until grinding out the clock late in the game. I thought he showed power in some of his runs that he didn't flash as well in previous games. There's also something to be said about not overvaluing YPC. Guys like LeVeon Bell suffered from an atrocious YPC in his rookie season (albeit with an injury). Guys like Marshawn Lynch perennially at a flat four-yards-per-carry, but are still considered elite because it's how and when you get the yards, and with what consistency for powerful backs as much as it is anything else (no doubt teams focus heavily on Marshawn Lynch, which also hurts his YPC).

You pretty much have to eyeball these things when deciding why someone has a poor YPC, if it can improve, which back has the most upside etc.

I completely agree with not overvaluing ypc. The reason I believe ypc is very telling in this case is because we have two RBs on the same team, same o-line, same scheme. If one is averaging a yard more per carry, it is significant

[teambadknees]

LeVeon Bell's 2013 YPC is 3.5. Zac Stacy's was 3.9. They were both concerns coming into this year.

People point to Terrance Wests YPC but idk how much it matters yet. Maybe it continues like Stacy and he's benched. Maybe he improves like Bell (although I think Bell is much more talented).

Since the Mack Injury Crowell has carried the ball 20 times for 60 yards for 3.0 YPC. I agree he's looked more dynamic at times but the Mac injury had effected his production as well. Since the Mack injury West is at 3.04 on 53 carries. I'm not so sure we can use stat lines to figure this out yet.

West seems to profile similarly to Stacy so maybe that's his fate. The staff seems to trust him the most at this time though. They also made the biggest investment in him. I'm not saying he's leaps and bounds better than Crowell or Tate but he's trending as the starter. In a RBBC for this year. Crowell will have to continue to prove himself as the better playmaker which the eyeball test says he will. Ultimately it's not up to the FF Community it's up to the coaching staff.

[Uncle_StinkFinger]

I just don't see anything in West. Reminds me of what i see when i watch montee ball. jag. just a guy.

[FantasyFreak]

I just don't see anything in West. Reminds me of what i see when i watch montee ball. jag. just a guy.

I respectfully disagree. Looks to me like a guy who jumped from Townson to the NFL and half way through the season has already taken a position as a lead back. Shedding 10 lbs would help him tremendously, ala Le'Veon Bell. In my startup league I had Bell rated as my number one back. I snagged him at 17th overall. Now, I'm not saying West is, or will be as good as Le'veon, but he does have talent, and the more he acclimates himself to the NFL, the better he will get. Crowell has more flair, but for me, he lacks intuition. A lot of his big runs come on sweeps, and tosses, where he is very good. These big gains help to drive up his average. There were a few runs that West made Thursday night, between the tackles, where I just found myself saying, there is no way Crowell does that. Time will tell, but I feel a lot of people got all amped up on Crowell because of a hot start, but they refuse to acknowledge his shortcomings after a larger of body of work has presented some flaws in his game. If you picked him up on waivers, or paid a mid round pick for him, there is little down side, so anything he does is a bonus, but I really don't see "feed the crow" as a catch phrase 3 years from now.

[voiceofunreason]

I just don't see anything in West. Reminds me of what i see when i watch montee ball. jag. just a guy.

I respectfully disagree. Looks to me like a guy who jumped from Townson to the NFL and half way through the season has already taken a position as a lead back. Shedding 10 lbs would help him tremendously, ala Le'Veon Bell. In my startup league I had Bell rated as my number one back. I snagged him at 17th overall. Now, I'm not saying West is, or will be as good as Le'veon, but he does have talent, and the more he acclimates himself to the NFL, the better he will get. Crowell has more flair, but for me, he lacks intuition. A lot of his big runs come on sweeps, and tosses, where he is very good. These big gains help to drive up his average. There were a few runs that West made Thursday night, between the tackles, where I just found myself saying, there is no way Crowell does that. Time will tell, but I feel a lot of people got all amped up on Crowell because of a hot start, but they refuse to acknowledge his shortcomings after a larger of body of work has presented some flaws in his game. If you picked him up on waivers, or paid a mid round pick for him, there is little down side, so anything he does is a bonus, but I really don't see "feed the crow" as a catch phrase 3 years from now.

I expected them to give West the first shot after Tate whether he deserved it or not. Bad teams especially let higher draft picks play and lord knows not many teams are run worse than the Browns. There also seems to be some undercurrent that West is a better practice player and they seem to want to instill in the team that the best players in practice play in the games. All I'm interested in is who is the better runner though. This is dynasty, not a weekly league. If West turns it around and plays great it's his job. If he doesn't and this is the player he is, at some point (whether it's 2 games or a year from now) he'll be benched. If Crowell keeps playing well, he's the first one in line for the job when that happens.

One thing I'll say is that I believe West's talent is greatly overrated because of his draft position. I really think if the Browns hadn't taken him that he'd have been a 5th to 7th round pick. Even at that he was a late third rounder, 94 overall. All the ranting and raving makes it seem like he was a high pick but in reality he was just a mid-rounder.

[bigcsr67]

I just don't see anything in West. Reminds me of what i see when i watch montee ball. jag. just a guy.

I respectfully disagree. Looks to me like a guy who jumped from Townson to the NFL and half way through the season has already taken a position as a lead back. Shedding 10 lbs would help him tremendously, ala Le'Veon Bell. In my startup league I had Bell rated as my number one back. I snagged him at 17th overall. Now, I'm not saying West is, or will be as good as Le'veon, but he does have talent, and the more he acclimates himself to the NFL, the better he will get. Crowell has more flair, but for me, he lacks intuition. A lot of his big runs come on sweeps, and tosses, where he is very good. These big gains help to drive up his average. There were a few runs that West made Thursday night, between the tackles, where I just found myself saying, there is no way Crowell does that. Time will tell, but I feel a lot of people got all amped up on Crowell because of a hot start, but they refuse to acknowledge his shortcomings after a larger of body of work has presented some flaws in his game. If you picked him up on waivers, or paid a mid round pick for him, there is little down side, so anything he does is a bonus, but I really don't see "feed the crow" as a catch phrase 3 years from now.

I expected them to give West the first shot after Tate whether he deserved it or not. Bad teams especially let higher draft picks play and lord knows not many teams are run worse than the Browns. There also seems to be some undercurrent that West is a better practice player and they seem to want to instill in the team that the best players in practice play in the games. All I'm interested in is who is the better runner though. This is dynasty, not a weekly league. If West turns it around and plays great it's his job. If he doesn't and this is the player he is, at some point (whether it's 2 games or a year from now) he'll be benched. If Crowell keeps playing well, he's the first one in line for the job when that happens.



One thing I'll say is that I believe West's talent is greatly overrated because of his draft position. I really think if the Browns hadn't taken him that he'd have been a 5th to 7th round pick. Even at that he was a late third rounder, 94 overall. All the ranting and raving makes it seem like he was a high pick but in reality he was just a mid-rounder.

I recall that the Browns jumped in front of Baltimore to nab West, so 5th to 7th round assumption is just your opinion. No matter who you like in this backfield, one thing is for sure.... Its a cluster fart. All three RBs have pretty solid talent, however, West is trending up in the browns organization due to the fact he is a more complete football player. Crowell is a nice player, he reminds me of Chris Ivory.

[balaberda]

The Browns are winning. Nothing is changing any time soon. You simply need to own both. Crowell owners you secretly known it but now you have to overpay.

I got west for cheap when the media was in love with crow. Then over paid for crow but I feel better owning both.

[49ersFaithful80]

It is much easier to average more per carry when you get less carries, that's the way it works. The stud workhorse backs (Marshawn) usually average close to 4.0 per carry because of the volume of carries they receive.

YPC is one statistic, no where near the sole factor that goes into evaluating RB's. A ton of luck goes into it as well. If a back receives even one carry in which he gets blown up in the backfield for -5 yards it has a huge impact on his YPC and he certainly was not at fault. I like to use YPC but only over very large sample sizes.

There is much more that goes into evaluating a RB. Such as pass blocking. Terrance West is a beast in pass protection meanwhile Crowell is bleep-terrible at it.

[dm1129]

It is much easier to average more per carry when you get less carries, that's the way it works. The stud workhorse backs (Marshawn) usually average close to 4.0 per carry because of the volume of carries they receive.

YPC is one statistic, no where near the sole factor that goes into evaluating RB's. A ton of luck goes into it as well. If a back receives even one carry in which he gets blown up in the backfield for -5 yards it has a huge impact on his YPC and he certainly was not at fault. I like to use YPC but only over very large sample sizes.

There is much more that goes into evaluating a RB. Such as pass blocking. Terrance West is a beast in pass protection meanwhile Crowell is bleep-terrible at it.

This is not correct. The top 12 RBs by total rushing yardage this year have a ypc of 4.48.
2013: 4.49.
2012: 4.83.
2011: 4.53.
Keep in mind this the ypc for the top 12 yardage backs, not the top 12 ypc backs.

The reality is stud workhorse backs PRODUCE. A RB can have the best vision in the league, be excellent at setting up his blocks, be the most 'fluid' back in the league, be the best pass protecting back in the league, but if he does not have the physical talent to take advantage of these traits, it is meaningless. West has not shown that he has the physical ability to successfully run the ball in the NFL as evidenced by a 3.24 ypc since opening day. His ypc confirms what I see when I watch him run. Crowell has shown more raw physical ability. His shortcomings in ball security, pass protection, etc.. can possibly be improved with coaching. Lack of physical talent cannot. At this point, I believe Crowell has a better chance of being the Browns RB next year. With that said, it would not surprise me at all if the Browns draft one of the many prospects available in next year's draft.

[balaberda]

I just don't understand any argument for ypc in this backfield. They are all getting similar ypc without the centre. I just don't see how ypc is an argument at all for anyone in this backfield. Both for or against.

[FantasyFreak]

To say West doesn't produce is just plain wrong. What did he just do Thursday night, in arguably their biggest game? He produced. He carried the rock 26 times, ands while his YPC weren't great, neither were the YPC of the other two backs. He gained tough yards against a defense that knew they were going to run the ball late in the 3rd and 4th quarter. Crowell has had durability issues going back to college, and has NEVER carried more that 185 times in a season. Do you not think the coaching staff are aware of that? That's why he has never carried more than 12 times in an NFL game, and why he is more suited as a secondary back, rather than a workhorse like West. You believe what you want about the two, but I heard the same arguments against Le'veon Bell last year, so I believe it's way too early to write off EITHER of these backs. I personally think they will both be carrying the ball ahead of Tate at some point, and I don't see why the Browns would spend another early pick on a RB early in next years draft when there are other positional needs that are greater.

[dm1129]

To say West doesn't produce is just plain wrong. What did he just do Thursday night, in arguably their biggest game? He produced. He carried the rock 26 times, ands while his YPC weren't great, neither were the YPC of the other two backs. He gained tough yards against a defense that knew they were going to run the ball late in the 3rd and 4th quarter. Crowell has had durability issues going back to college, and has NEVER carried more that 185 times in a season. Do you not think the coaching staff are aware of that? That's why he has never carried more than 12 times in an NFL game, and why he is more suited as a secondary back, rather than a workhorse like West. You believe what you want about the two, but I heard the same arguments against Le'veon Bell last year, so I believe it's way too early to write off EITHER of these backs. I personally think they will both be carrying the ball ahead of Tate at some point, and I don't see why the Browns would spend another early pick on a RB early in next years draft when there are other positional needs that are greater.

What is plain wrong is to think averaging 3.61 ypc against one of the worst run defenses in the league which has allowed 4.5 ypc is producing. The majority of West's carries were in the second half when the defense was already tired and on a short week yet he still could not even approach what the rest of CIN's opponents have produced against them this year. The Le'Veon Bell comparison is a non-starter. Bell was injured to open the season last year, as the season progressed his ypc improved. In other words, there was a reason for his poor ypc. Your explanation for West's poor performance? He needs to get 'acclimated'. Whether or not Crowell will be durable in the NFL has nothing to do with West's apparent lack of physical talent.

[FantasyFreak]

To say West doesn't produce is just plain wrong. What did he just do Thursday night, in arguably their biggest game? He produced. He carried the rock 26 times, ands while his YPC weren't great, neither were the YPC of the other two backs. He gained tough yards against a defense that knew they were going to run the ball late in the 3rd and 4th quarter. Crowell has had durability issues going back to college, and has NEVER carried more that 185 times in a season. Do you not think the coaching staff are aware of that? That's why he has never carried more than 12 times in an NFL game, and why he is more suited as a secondary back, rather than a workhorse like West. You believe what you want about the two, but I heard the same arguments against Le'veon Bell last year, so I believe it's way too early to write off EITHER of these backs. I personally think they will both be carrying the ball ahead of Tate at some point, and I don't see why the Browns would spend another early pick on a RB early in next years draft when there are other positional needs that are greater.

What is plain wrong is to think averaging 3.61 ypc against one of the worst run defenses in the league which has allowed 4.5 ypc is producing. The majority of West's carries were in the second half when the defense was already tired and on a short week yet he still could not even approach what the rest of CIN's opponents have produced against them this year. The Le'Veon Bell comparison is a non-starter. Bell was injured to open the season last year, as the season progressed his ypc improved. In other words, there was a reason for his poor ypc. Your explanation for West's poor performance? He needs to get 'acclimated'. Whether or not Crowell will be durable in the NFL has nothing to do with West's apparent lack of physical talent.

The Browns were on a short week as well, so the offence was tired, too, if you want to go that route. He gain most of his yards in the second half when they knew the run was coming. His 3.6 YPC were more than Crowell's 3.4. It's you who have judged West's performance to be poor, not me. Apparently the Cleveland coaching staff would disagree with you. To throw stats of 3.6 YPC against a defines that gave up 4.5 in a vacuum is fine, but this is a HUGE divisional game. What West did helped his team win that game, and I'll wager that no one on that team gauged his performance as poor.