PPR is a farce!!!!!!

General talk about Dynasty Leagues.

What has PPR done for your fantasy football experience?

enhanced it immensely
41
75%
hmmm, haven't really noticed
10
18%
what the hell is ppr?!
4
7%
 
Total votes: 55

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dlf_kenm
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby dlf_kenm » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:48 pm

Wow, I sure was opinionated in my youth. Those were simpler times...

I play in both PPR and non-PPR leagues now, as well as some PPFD leagues. I'm cool with all of them, actually. I really enjoy having a different set of rules to build my team to.

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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Jigga94 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:24 pm

sugbear65 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:29 pm
Lumps wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:09 pm
Bronco Billy wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:23 pm


Wow. I hope you don’t set up barricades and start the message board on fire.
:lol:

I mean I’m on the same side as you regarding PPR and PFFD but I think you seem to not understand what opinions and facts are....
Lol. To be fair, I guess he is in good company-

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PPR is stupid
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2QB, 2RB, 3WR, TE, FLEX - PPR - [b]14 Keepers[/b]
QB: Mahomes, J. Allen, Baker, D. Jones
RB: JT, Mostert (IR), Gaskin (IR), Dillon, Ingram, Mattison, Scott, McKissic
WR: Tyreek, DJM, Jeudy, Hollywood, Cooks, Mims, Hardman, Preston (IR), Parris (IR)
TE: Andrews, Fant, Henry
2021: 1.05-1.10, 2, 3

2QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 3FLEX - PPR - [b]20 Keepers[/b]
QB: Mahomes, Ryan, Mullens, Luton, Minshew (IR)
RB: Saquon (IR), Jacobs, Dobbins, Hunt, Penny (IR)
WR: AJB, DJM, Chark, Ruggs, Hardman, Mike Will, C. Davis, C. Samuel, Mooney, Lazard, J. Washington
TE: Andrews, Henry, Gesicki, Irv, Tonyan
2021: 1.03-1.06, 2, 2, 3, 3
2022: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3

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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby thebeast » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:39 am

I don’t get PPFD at all. Why would a first down yard be worth anymore than the other 9 yards it took to get there. I don’t see how it translates to a player performing a more valuable action. Like if a RB took a swing pass 9 yards and then a slot guy catches a 1 yard slant for the first is that what should be rewarded? Nothing is going to be perfect, but I think PPR has done a good job of being a fun, easy, and understandable way to balance WR value with RB value especially in the top player tiers.
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Pac_Eddy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:46 am

thebeast wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:39 am
I don’t get PPFD at all. Why would a first down yard be worth anymore than the other 9 yards it took to get there. I don’t see how it translates to a player performing a more valuable action. Like if a RB took a swing pass 9 yards and then a slot guy catches a 1 yard slant for the first is that what should be rewarded? Nothing is going to be perfect, but I think PPR has done a good job of being a fun, easy, and understandable way to balance WR value with RB value especially in the top player tiers.
The simplest argument for PPDFD is that a one yard gain on 4th & 1 is worth 0.1 points, versus a zero yard catch on 3rd & 20 is worth 1.0, ten times as much as the first down the RB got in a critical real life situation.

I'm just repulsed by giving a guy a half or one whole point for gaining zero or negative yards. That play is a failure in the NFL, but rewarded in fantasy.
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Bronco Billy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:31 am

Pac_Eddy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:46 am
thebeast wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:39 am
I don’t get PPFD at all. Why would a first down yard be worth anymore than the other 9 yards it took to get there. I don’t see how it translates to a player performing a more valuable action. Like if a RB took a swing pass 9 yards and then a slot guy catches a 1 yard slant for the first is that what should be rewarded? Nothing is going to be perfect, but I think PPR has done a good job of being a fun, easy, and understandable way to balance WR value with RB value especially in the top player tiers.
The simplest argument for PPDFD is that a one yard gain on 4th & 1 is worth 0.1 points, versus a zero yard catch on 3rd & 20 is worth 1.0, ten times as much as the first down the RB got in a critical real life situation.

I'm just repulsed by giving a guy a half or one whole point for gaining zero or negative yards. That play is a failure in the NFL, but rewarded in fantasy.
It’s a game. I can find all sorts of hypothetical flaws with PPFD just like one can with PPR. All that really matters is that the league understands the rules and its impact on player value and that the owners enjoy the league.

FF scores all sorts of things the NFL doesn’t. FF started out as standard leagues that scored only TDs and FGs. It was fun at the time but very limited as far as permutations, and a poor draft slot or one injury could destroy a team’s season before it even started.

I’m sorry to break this to you, but there is no superiority of PPFD over a well thought out PPR. Both have flaws if all you want to do is pick apart the exceptions. You don’t like PPR and love PPFD? That’s cool. As long as you have fun playing and the scoring makes for enhanced competitiveness, that’s what really matters. That’s no justification for dumping all over someone else’s system if they enjoy their rules and their league but it’s different than your preferences.

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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Pac_Eddy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:46 am

Bronco Billy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:31 am
I’m sorry to break this to you, but there is no superiority of PPFD over a well thought out PPR. Both have flaws if all you want to do is pick apart the exceptions. You don’t like PPR and love PPFD? That’s cool. As long as you have fun playing and the scoring makes for enhanced competitiveness, that’s what really matters. That’s no justification for dumping all over someone else’s system if they enjoy their rules and their league but it’s different than your preferences.
I'm not as aggressively anti-ppr as you're portraying, I just prefer PPFD. I realize I'm in the minority.

What are the flaws of PPFD from your point of view?
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby thebeast » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:54 am

Pac_Eddy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:46 am
thebeast wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:39 am
I don’t get PPFD at all. Why would a first down yard be worth anymore than the other 9 yards it took to get there. I don’t see how it translates to a player performing a more valuable action. Like if a RB took a swing pass 9 yards and then a slot guy catches a 1 yard slant for the first is that what should be rewarded? Nothing is going to be perfect, but I think PPR has done a good job of being a fun, easy, and understandable way to balance WR value with RB value especially in the top player tiers.
The simplest argument for PPDFD is that a one yard gain on 4th & 1 is worth 0.1 points, versus a zero yard catch on 3rd & 20 is worth 1.0, ten times as much as the first down the RB got in a critical real life situation.

I'm just repulsed by giving a guy a half or one whole point for gaining zero or negative yards. That play is a failure in the NFL, but rewarded in fantasy.
Hmm, this is a very good point. I guess you could only awarding ppr points for positive yardage receptions or something. In any case I think we're quibbling over the last 5%, which I think by definition it impossible to get right. Mayeb there are a few guys who's value have been a little more inflated and suppressed than they should be, but I think on the whole it has balanced the scoring and value chasm between the RB and WRs, and Superflex with TE premium has basically leveled the field further across the skill positions, which is probably a good thing. My one quibble would be that I do think TEs should hold less value, they are significantly less valuable to NFL offenses on the most part, however, those who are internal to their team's success already score inline with other elite assets (like Kelce) so they don't really need a boost.
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Pac_Eddy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:31 am

thebeast wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:54 am
Hmm, this is a very good point. I guess you could only awarding ppr points for positive yardage receptions or something. In any case I think we're quibbling over the last 5%, which I think by definition it impossible to get right. Mayeb there are a few guys who's value have been a little more inflated and suppressed than they should be, but I think on the whole it has balanced the scoring and value chasm between the RB and WRs, and Superflex with TE premium has basically leveled the field further across the skill positions, which is probably a good thing. My one quibble would be that I do think TEs should hold less value, they are significantly less valuable to NFL offenses on the most part, however, those who are internal to their team's success already score inline with other elite assets (like Kelce) so they don't really need a boost.
Before we implemented PPFD in my league, I made a copy of the league and changed the scoring to 1.0 PPFD, zero PPR. There weren't any huge changes in rankings based on the stats. Some owners were still nervous, so we compromised and did 0.5 PPFD, 0.5 PPR.

I agree that it's quibbling over the last 5%. It's not a dramatic thing. I just think it makes fantasy football a little bit better when it more closely reflects the actual important plays of the game. Ultimately, do what makes the game the most fun for you & your league.
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Lumps » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:49 am

Pac_Eddy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:31 am
thebeast wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:54 am
Hmm, this is a very good point. I guess you could only awarding ppr points for positive yardage receptions or something. In any case I think we're quibbling over the last 5%, which I think by definition it impossible to get right. Mayeb there are a few guys who's value have been a little more inflated and suppressed than they should be, but I think on the whole it has balanced the scoring and value chasm between the RB and WRs, and Superflex with TE premium has basically leveled the field further across the skill positions, which is probably a good thing. My one quibble would be that I do think TEs should hold less value, they are significantly less valuable to NFL offenses on the most part, however, those who are internal to their team's success already score inline with other elite assets (like Kelce) so they don't really need a boost.
Before we implemented PPFD in my league, I made a copy of the league and changed the scoring to 1.0 PPFD, zero PPR. There weren't any huge changes in rankings based on the stats. Some owners were still nervous, so we compromised and did 0.5 PPFD, 0.5 PPR.

I agree that it's quibbling over the last 5%. It's not a dramatic thing. I just think it makes fantasy football a little bit better when it more closely reflects the actual important plays of the game. Ultimately, do what makes the game the most fun for you & your league.
Along with this, I think we need to keep in mind there are two different measurements here:

1. Leveling the fantasy football playing field across positions.
2. Reflecting value/worth/true value to teams in the real world.

With #1 PPR (or more likely tiered PPR) may do that. Whether or not a Theo Riddick type is truly valuable in the NFL real world is not the point.

If you are concerned with #2, then PPFD makes more sense to you. There are obvious favoritism between positions in real life and making up for those isn’t important.
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby OhCruelestRanter » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:21 pm

I'm getting more convinced that the answer isn't to add points for things like first downs or receptions, but rather to subtract points for carries and targets. Imagine if each carry, passing attempt, and target was worth -0.25 points. Now you're rewarding efficiency as well as volume. It makes sense, as 100 yards on 5 targets is more impressive than 110 yards on 14 targets. This would benefit WRs (who produce more yards per target than RBs do per carry) without the problem of rewarding "bad" plays. Make all first downs +0.25 as well, so that way you don't lose points for a 1 yard carry on 4th and 1, and I think we have something. You could potentially even score all QB yards as regular 0.1 points per yard with a system like this, simultaneously fixing the problem where rushing QBs are overvalued.
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Bronco Billy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:46 pm

Pac_Eddy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:31 am

I agree that it's quibbling over the last 5%. It's not a dramatic thing. I just think it makes fantasy football a little bit better when it more closely reflects the actual important plays of the game. Ultimately, do what makes the game the most fun for you & your league.
What makes the 1 yd run on 3rd and 1 more important than the 4 yard run on 1st and 10 or the 5 yd catch on 2nd and 6, both of which made the 3rd and 1 possible? All the plays contributed to the 1st down, not just the last one.

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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Pac_Eddy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:31 pm

Bronco Billy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:46 pm
Pac_Eddy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:31 am

I agree that it's quibbling over the last 5%. It's not a dramatic thing. I just think it makes fantasy football a little bit better when it more closely reflects the actual important plays of the game. Ultimately, do what makes the game the most fun for you & your league.
What makes the 1 yd run on 3rd and 1 more important than the 4 yard run on 1st and 10 or the 5 yd catch on 2nd and 6, both of which made the 3rd and 1 possible? All the plays contributed to the 1st down, not just the last one.
Converting a first down and not having to punt. I think that's way more meaningful than the first five or six yards. First downs keep the drive going and the ball out of your opponents hands. And many times more important than a five yard catch on a third and ten play.
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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Bronco Billy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:08 pm

Pac_Eddy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:31 pm
Bronco Billy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:46 pm
Pac_Eddy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:31 am

I agree that it's quibbling over the last 5%. It's not a dramatic thing. I just think it makes fantasy football a little bit better when it more closely reflects the actual important plays of the game. Ultimately, do what makes the game the most fun for you & your league.
What makes the 1 yd run on 3rd and 1 more important than the 4 yard run on 1st and 10 or the 5 yd catch on 2nd and 6, both of which made the 3rd and 1 possible? All the plays contributed to the 1st down, not just the last one.
Converting a first down and not having to punt. I think that's way more meaningful than the first five or six yards. First downs keep the drive going and the ball out of your opponents hands. And many times more important than a five yard catch on a third and ten play.
Yeah, thanks. I know what a first down is. You didn’t explain why the plays before a first down that set the play up that gains the first down have less value to a team. You assert they are less meaningful. Why?

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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby Bronco Billy » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:23 pm

Perhaps I can use an extreme example to explain my point. Player A gains 9 1/2 yards on first down. Player B then carries the ball on second down by comes up short of a first down by an inch. Then Player B manages to barely push the ball across the line to gain and gets the first down on the next carry.

By your logic, Player B’s 1 inch gain on third down was much more meaningful to the team than Player B gaining 114 times more than that distance on first down to set up Player B’s two attempts to finally convert the first down. Player B would have come up 9 1/2 yards short of the first down running those two plays if Player A hadn’t gained so much on first down to create the opportunity for Player B. It all works together.

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Re: PPR is a farce!!!!!!

Postby M-Dub » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:38 pm

Bronco Billy wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:23 pm
Perhaps I can use an extreme example to explain my point. Player A gains 9 1/2 yards on first down. Player B then carries the ball on second down by comes up short of a first down by an inch. Then Player B manages to barely push the ball across the line to gain and gets the first down on the next carry.

By your logic, Player B’s 1 inch gain on third down was much more meaningful to the team than Player B gaining 114 times more than that distance on first down to set up Player B’s two attempts to finally convert the first down. Player B would have come up 9 1/2 yards short of the first down running those two plays if Player A hadn’t gained so much on first down to create the opportunity for Player B.
Fair point, but in all likelihood, the 3rd down play was designed to only gain a yard and move the chains. Every scoring system will have flaws, but I think PPFD is preferable to PPR simply based on the fact that a first down is ALWAYS a good outcome. The same is not true of receptions. For example, let’s say the blocking breaks down on a designed screen where the receiver is supposed to catch the ball a couple yards behind the LOS. In this case, it would actually be a smarter play and more beneficial for the team for the receiver to simply bat the ball down rather than make the catch and immediately get tackled for a two or three yard loss. I honestly can’t think of a scenario where a play that results in a first down would be a negative outcome. No play exists in a vacuum. Of course a first down is easier to pick up when it’s preceded by a 9-yard gain. But that doesn’t bother me as much as a negative play resulting in positive points. For that reason, I still think PPFD is the better of two flawed scoring systems.
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