Kaep and Wilson

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TommyL31
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby TommyL31 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:02 am

will6779 wrote:To early to call them great. Cause there not yet. Great young prospects? Yes. Lets see what happens next year.
This pretty much sums it up. I expect both of them to struggle at some point this season as defenses are better prepared for them. It happens to every QB who has initial success. If they're truly great they'll make adjustments but too early to tell.
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby 49ersFaithful80 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:09 am

Chris_R wrote:
49ersFaithful80 wrote:If people can routinely call Cam Newton great then I have no problem with people calling Russell Wilson or Kaepernick future hall of famers.

What is your obsession with Cam Newton? I have yet to see one thread or post you've made about Kaepernick without brining Cam Newton into it. All he's done is come in from day 1, shatter records, be a top 5 fantasy QB consistently, and the way he finished down the stretch this past season was nearly flawless.


In 2 full seasons he's shown he can hold a 60% completion percentage, 4k yard passer, QB rating of 85, 20 passing TD's, 10 rushing, with 700 rushing yards to boot. That's roughly 4700 total yards and 30 TD's through two season. Yet you make the ridiculous comment "if people routinely call him great then these guys are hall of famers". You make yourself look worse and worse everytime you make a comment about Cam. You were wrong, you are still wrong, it's just time to let it go. He isn't, and doesn't have to be as accurate as Drew Brees or Peyton Manning, nobody is. But he is a great passer and great player, while being an elite fantasy QB with 2 full seasons of data and he is still 23 years old.


You had an original stance on him, it was way off base. That's fine, but everytime you try and stick to an argument that never made sense to begin with it makes it worse. Nobody should even have to waste their time explaining why Cam is a really good QB, the fact that you want him to throw for 5000 passing yards with a 95% completion percentage is quite ridiculous. How many QB's can you find that have had more success then Cam in their first 2 years? There is mountains of data to prove he is great but I guess he still sucks since you said he did a long time ago so that has to still be right.

Haven't been on here for a while, just saw this now. Believe it or not I look at more than passing yards and fantasy points to project how I see a player performing in the future.

In reality Cam Newton is an inferior passer to all of the other QB's in this new generation (RG3, Luck, Wilson, Kaep).

Cam Newton was off Target on %25 of his targeted pass attempts his rookie season and %22 this season (shout out to CokeandBacardi for this data, which he obtained from pro football reference). This makes him a bottom 5 QB in the entire league in terms of accuracy.

He has proven he cannot complete %60 of his passes...where did you come up with that one? his career completion percentage is 58.9%. In reality there is zero data to prove he is a great passer; all of his stats paint the picture of a below average passer other than his passing yards. A 19-12 TD-INT ratio for a "great" passer is absolutely pathetic.

Did anyone really needs these numbers though to realize he is an inaccurate passer? Just watch the guy play, he consistently misses open receivers.

I don't buy into the hype and say he is great just because he put up a lot of fantasy points (which will not continue unless he can find a way to improve as a passer). I don't think 2 great fantasy seasons (exclusively because of his rushing abilities) means this is a closed book.

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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby TheOracle » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:44 pm

Cam Newton wrote:*Sets all-time record for passing yards in first two years with Steve Smith, Brandon LaFell and Greg Olsen as top targets and Ron Rivera coaching*
49ersFaithful80 wrote:(exclusively because of his rushing abilities)
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby Scooby1974 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:19 am

I find myself soundly in the minority of those that view Wilson as a step or two better than Kaep. I look at the guys at the top (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Peyton) and see that the thing that sets them apart from the rest are their Brains and preparation. Wilson is not only gifted physically, but is cerebral and an intuitive leader. Wilson seems to have "it", and I believe that he shares that same "it" factor with the top guys and "it" sets him apart from a VERY physically gifted but flappable Kaep. Don't get me wrong, I like Kaep too...but short term AND long term...I'll take the guy with the brains (Wilson's Grandfather was a college President---it's in the genes :), the character, the amazing preparation, the leadership desire to make everyone else around him better, and the great physical tools over the freakish athlete that is in my view, a step down in those other areas.

This next year will be fun to watch as both these guys get more rope to hang themselves with. I'm 100% confident that both will only continue to improve, however I think Wilson has the mental ceiling that separates him from Kaep.

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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby Scooby1974 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 10:22 am

If the news about Harvin heading to Seattle is true...this only further bumps my thoughts on Wilson.

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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby abecksta » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:40 am

I am in the very advantageous position of owning Kaepernick, Wilson, and Roethilsberger in my 32 team PPR league (with double copies). I picked Kaep with my last pick of a 30 round start up last season and got Wilson in the third round of our rookie draft. I feel I am pretty stacked everywhere (IDP positions included). I managed to win the championship in our inaugural season and am trying to put myself in the best position to repeat. And I think trading one of my quarterbacks is probably my best option.

The question is which one and for what?

We have to start 6 skill position guys, in one of these configurations: 1 RB, 4 WR, 1 TE or 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE or 2 RB, 2 WR, 2 TE or 1 RB, 3 WR, 2 TE.

My running backs are Richardson, Lynch, Beanie Wells, Ryan Williams, Cadet, Marcel Reece and Taiwan Jones.

WRs are Amendola, Fitzgerald, Gordon, Jennings, Andre, Nicks, TJ Graham, and Brazil.

TEs are Olsen and Scott Chandler and I am tentatively planning on taking Eifert if he falls to me at 1.11.

So, what position and caliber of player should I target? and which QB should I trade? I think Wilson might be the guy I deal, but it is awful tempting to just hang on to him and Kaepernick and all but assure that I will have an elite qb.

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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby lukeb » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:57 am

Scooby1974 wrote:I find myself soundly in the minority of those that view Wilson as a step or two better than Kaep.
I missed this post but I agree with you.
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby Mangelo » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:13 pm

Not to be outdone by Wilson, Kaep just traded for Boldin

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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby kmbryant09 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:09 pm

Scooby1974 wrote:I find myself soundly in the minority of those that view Wilson as a step or two better than Kaep. I look at the guys at the top (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Peyton) and see that the thing that sets them apart from the rest are their Brains and preparation. Wilson is not only gifted physically, but is cerebral and an intuitive leader. Wilson seems to have "it", and I believe that he shares that same "it" factor with the top guys and "it" sets him apart from a VERY physically gifted but flappable Kaep. Don't get me wrong, I like Kaep too...but short term AND long term...I'll take the guy with the brains (Wilson's Grandfather was a college President---it's in the genes :), the character, the amazing preparation, the leadership desire to make everyone else around him better, and the great physical tools over the freakish athlete that is in my view, a step down in those other areas.

This next year will be fun to watch as both these guys get more rope to hang themselves with. I'm 100% confident that both will only continue to improve, however I think Wilson has the mental ceiling that separates him from Kaep.
I know there's been a ton of talk about Wilson's intangibles and the "IT" factor - but what makes you think that Kaepernick doesn't have it? I'm just playing devil's advocate, but Kaep's been amazing by all accounts.

He was thrust into the starting lineup and many players/coaches/media outlets openly questioned that decision. Yet not only did he manage to not lose the lockerroom, he managed to rally the team. By all accounts, he's a great leader. Randy Moss, who tells it like it is, raved about Kaepernick's leadership ability during media week before the SB. He mentioned how he doesn't just lead on the field, but he leads by example off the field - showing up early for practice, in the weightroom, film study, in the lockerrom, etc. etc. Word came out a few days after the SB that Kaepernick was ready to rally a few of his offensive teammates to start training for the 2013 season - 1 week after the SB!

I agree with your assessment of Wilson, but I'm not sure why that automatically means that the same doesn't apply to Kaepernick. Heck, the guy most be doing something right considering how well he played en route to a SB appearance in his first (half) season as a starter.
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby Scooby1974 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:07 am

kmbryant09 wrote:
Scooby1974 wrote:I find myself soundly in the minority of those that view Wilson as a step or two better than Kaep. I look at the guys at the top (Rodgers, Brees, Brady, Peyton) and see that the thing that sets them apart from the rest are their Brains and preparation. Wilson is not only gifted physically, but is cerebral and an intuitive leader. Wilson seems to have "it", and I believe that he shares that same "it" factor with the top guys and "it" sets him apart from a VERY physically gifted but flappable Kaep. Don't get me wrong, I like Kaep too...but short term AND long term...I'll take the guy with the brains (Wilson's Grandfather was a college President---it's in the genes :), the character, the amazing preparation, the leadership desire to make everyone else around him better, and the great physical tools over the freakish athlete that is in my view, a step down in those other areas.

This next year will be fun to watch as both these guys get more rope to hang themselves with. I'm 100% confident that both will only continue to improve, however I think Wilson has the mental ceiling that separates him from Kaep.
I know there's been a ton of talk about Wilson's intangibles and the "IT" factor - but what makes you think that Kaepernick doesn't have it? I'm just playing devil's advocate, but Kaep's been amazing by all accounts.

He was thrust into the starting lineup and many players/coaches/media outlets openly questioned that decision. Yet not only did he manage to not lose the lockerroom, he managed to rally the team. By all accounts, he's a great leader. Randy Moss, who tells it like it is, raved about Kaepernick's leadership ability during media week before the SB. He mentioned how he doesn't just lead on the field, but he leads by example off the field - showing up early for practice, in the weightroom, film study, in the lockerrom, etc. etc. Word came out a few days after the SB that Kaepernick was ready to rally a few of his offensive teammates to start training for the 2013 season - 1 week after the SB!

I agree with your assessment of Wilson, but I'm not sure why that automatically means that the same doesn't apply to Kaepernick. Heck, the guy most be doing something right considering how well he played en route to a SB appearance in his first (half) season as a starter.
Good posting, and I agree that Kaep seems to have some "it" as well. I'll take a humbled Randy Moss's views into consideration. However from what I've read/heard about Wilson I think the difference is between the ears. Wilson is an extremely smart kid (Grandfather a college President, was raised from the get go to be a self starter/leader/learner), you can hear it when he speaks in interviews and how everyone on the team speaks of him. Kaep isn't a dope by any means, but he clearly isn't as eloquent and sharp in that department...you can work out and read film all you want. Russell seems to be one of those guys that learning comes "easy with"...add that to his meticulous prep and it is my gut that says Wilson is a step or two ahead of Kaep. With the addition of Percy, now Wilson has a top line WR to feed the ball to. I think Crabtree and Vernon were both better than anything Seattle was throwing out there in Rice/Baldwin.

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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby kmbryant09 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:03 am

Scooby1974 wrote: Good posting, and I agree that Kaep seems to have some "it" as well. I'll take a humbled Randy Moss's views into consideration. However from what I've read/heard about Wilson I think the difference is between the ears. Wilson is an extremely smart kid (Grandfather a college President, was raised from the get go to be a self starter/leader/learner), you can hear it when he speaks in interviews and how everyone on the team speaks of him. Kaep isn't a dope by any means, but he clearly isn't as eloquent and sharp in that department...you can work out and read film all you want. Russell seems to be one of those guys that learning comes "easy with"...add that to his meticulous prep and it is my gut that says Wilson is a step or two ahead of Kaep. With the addition of Percy, now Wilson has a top line WR to feed the ball to. I think Crabtree and Vernon were both better than anything Seattle was throwing out there in Rice/Baldwin.
Fair enough - I just think that both of these individuals are headed for the upper echelon of QB's - and sooner rather than later.

They both seem to understand the game light years ahead of most 24/25 year olds do. They are both athletic QB's who make good decisions with the football, and both have better arms than they are given credit for.

Ultimately, I give Kaepernick the slight edge for a few reasons - I like Pete Carroll, and what Seattle is doing, but I also think Jim Harbaugh is arguably the best coaching situation for any QB in the league (look what he got out of Alex Smith). Kaepernick also has WR-like speed and is obviously bigger than Russel Wilson.

The only knock that I've heard on Kaepernick is that he rarely "throws people open". I disagree, but let's address it. When you throw the ball as hard and fast as Kaepernick does (probably the strongest arm in the league - he was a major league pitching prospect), you don't necessarily have to anticipate throws as much as the average QB does. I've literally seen him make 25+ yard throws in which the defender doesn't even have time to react to the throw and make a play on the ball. He's also REALLY impressed me with his accuracy. I think Kaep, Wilson, Cam, and RG III are relatively similar QB's. I'm not sure there's a single trait about Wilson/Cam/RG3 that doesn't also apply to Kaep, while those 3 each have at least 1 relative "weakness". Cam isn't an accurate passer or great decision maker. Wilson doesn't have the size (albeit overblown) and while he's definitely athletic, he's probably less so than the other 3. Can RG3 stay healthy? Kaep does it all. He's got the size. He's got the speed. He's smart with the football. He's got a cannon. He's thrown the ball accurately. He's a leader.

But I guess I've gone a little off-topic (maybe?).
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby Scooby1974 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:14 am

kmbryant09 wrote:
Scooby1974 wrote: Good posting, and I agree that Kaep seems to have some "it" as well. I'll take a humbled Randy Moss's views into consideration. However from what I've read/heard about Wilson I think the difference is between the ears. Wilson is an extremely smart kid (Grandfather a college President, was raised from the get go to be a self starter/leader/learner), you can hear it when he speaks in interviews and how everyone on the team speaks of him. Kaep isn't a dope by any means, but he clearly isn't as eloquent and sharp in that department...you can work out and read film all you want. Russell seems to be one of those guys that learning comes "easy with"...add that to his meticulous prep and it is my gut that says Wilson is a step or two ahead of Kaep. With the addition of Percy, now Wilson has a top line WR to feed the ball to. I think Crabtree and Vernon were both better than anything Seattle was throwing out there in Rice/Baldwin.
Fair enough - I just think that both of these individuals are headed for the upper echelon of QB's - and sooner rather than later.

They both seem to understand the game light years ahead of most 24/25 year olds do. They are both athletic QB's who make good decisions with the football, and both have better arms than they are given credit for.

Ultimately, I give Kaepernick the slight edge for a few reasons - I like Pete Carroll, and what Seattle is doing, but I also think Jim Harbaugh is arguably the best coaching situation for any QB in the league (look what he got out of Alex Smith). Kaepernick also has WR-like speed and is obviously bigger than Russel Wilson.

The only knock that I've heard on Kaepernick is that he rarely "throws people open". I disagree, but let's address it. When you throw the ball as hard and fast as Kaepernick does (probably the strongest arm in the league - he was a major league pitching prospect), you don't necessarily have to anticipate throws as much as the average QB does. I've literally seen him make 25+ yard throws in which the defender doesn't even have time to react to the throw and make a play on the ball. He's also REALLY impressed me with his accuracy. I think Kaep, Wilson, Cam, and RG III are relatively similar QB's. I'm not sure there's a single trait about Wilson/Cam/RG3 that doesn't also apply to Kaep, while those 3 each have at least 1 relative "weakness". Cam isn't an accurate passer or great decision maker. Wilson doesn't have the size (albeit overblown) and while he's definitely athletic, he's probably less so than the other 3. Can RG3 stay healthy? Kaep does it all. He's got the size. He's got the speed. He's smart with the football. He's got a cannon. He's thrown the ball accurately. He's a leader.

But I guess I've gone a little off-topic (maybe?).
Well put, and I agree with most. I'm not sold on Kaep's ability to get through his progressions. I'm sure he'll improve, and right now his arm allows for this weakness in his game...but that along with the stuff between the ears keeps Wilson ahead of Kaep and Cam for me. I see RG3 and Wilson on a similar level as well.

All four are a whole lot of fun to watch. Some think they'll be figured out and schemed against, but to that I say good luck.

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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby kmbryant09 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:30 am

Let's discuss their weapons in the passing game just to keep the discussion going.

Obviously Harvin is a dynamic playmaker, and should provide a nice boost to Wilson's value/production. But does his acquisition mean Sidney Rice is gone? I still don't like Seattle's play-makers around Wilson (besides Harvin) - Tate/Baldwin have yet to emerge as consistent players and Rice may be gone & is extremely fragile. Speaking of fragility - will Harvin be able to stay healthy? Can Zach Miller be a receiving option at TE after having a relatively quiet season, but an explosive postseason (12 for 190 in 2 games)?

As for San Francisco - how does the Boldin acquisition affect the rest of the squad? I think Crabtree finally had his breakout campaign, but can he continue to be a true WR 1? Davis disappeared with Kaepernick under center, but seemed to come alive in the playoffs. Can he put up consistent production? I like Boldin's fit in this offense partially as an extra weapon at WR, but also to fill the (relatively small) void left by Delanie Walker's departure. Is Manningham under contract through 2013 with SF, and will he definitely be brought back? I'm sure Moss is gone, can A.J. Jenkins develop into an outside threat?
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby ascherb » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:04 pm

Both QB's have stellar offenses.

I believe the Hawks keep Rice or restructure because he is talented and plays well opposite of Harvin.

But from watching both teams, especially late in the season, I just trust Wilson more to avoid the sophomore slump. He is so poised and calm in the pocket, and I think having that ability is key to longterm success at the position.
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Re: Kaep and Wilson

Postby DynastyZ33 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:17 pm

Giving me Wilson over Kaep. I trust Wilson more to be successful long term, however Keap ain't no slouch either. The only reason I don't have 100% faith in Kaepernick is because of the offense he runs . I think Russell is more suited for a pro offense and I trust that offense more than anything.
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