Tim Tebow Thread: To the Jags TE Convert

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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby skip » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:13 pm

49ersFaithful80 wrote:Idk if any of you haters actually watched the games that he started, but he made ALOT of nice throws, along with some bad throws. I usually hate it when people say someone is a "winner" but if anyone is this kid is, I am convinced that if Tebow started the whole year he would have led the broncos to more wins that Orton did.
I have to disagree with this sentiment. As much as Tebow is a "winner", Orton has been a winning QB every season he has been a starter. The Denver offensive line was a shambles the entire season producing nothing remotely resembling a rushing attack until the last few weeks and even then Tebow accounted for 199 rushing yards while their RBs had 197. And there are two parts of a team that account for putting a winning team on the football field...the Broncos defense was dead last in the NFL.

As nice as the fantasy numbers were for Tebow last season, the Broncos lost 2 of his 3 starts with a 1 point victory over the 30th rated defense in the NFL.

I like Tebow, I just don't think he is an upgrade over what Orton offers. Its going to come down to which of them fits Fox's offense better.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby pntgvn2399 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:37 pm

skip wrote:
49ersFaithful80 wrote:Idk if any of you haters actually watched the games that he started, but he made ALOT of nice throws, along with some bad throws. I usually hate it when people say someone is a "winner" but if anyone is this kid is, I am convinced that if Tebow started the whole year he would have led the broncos to more wins that Orton did.
I have to disagree with this sentiment. As much as Tebow is a "winner", Orton has been a winning QB every season he has been a starter. The Denver offensive line was a shambles the entire season producing nothing remotely resembling a rushing attack until the last few weeks and even then Tebow accounted for 199 rushing yards while their RBs had 197. And there are two parts of a team that account for putting a winning team on the football field...the Broncos defense was dead last in the NFL.

As nice as the fantasy numbers were for Tebow last season, the Broncos lost 2 of his 3 starts with a 1 point victory over the 30th rated defense in the NFL.

I like Tebow, I just don't think he is an upgrade over what Orton offers. Its going to come down to which of them fits Fox's offense better.
There are college defenses that would have done better Denver did this year... Here is a logical question for you guys, lets say Tim Tebow was some guy that came from Indiana University and never got the national recognition that he did in college.. Put the character, the Super Bowl commercial, and the good samaritian stuff aside.. Then judge him as a QB and only a QB and if you come to the same results then more power to you.. However from what I have seen is people "want" him to succeed because of the person that he is, "want" and "will" are two completely different things in my book.. I have yet to see anything that has shown me that he will become a solid starting QB in NFL.. That's just me..
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QB- P. Manning, Wilson, Carr
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WR- Megatron, Dez, Watkins, Gordon, Cooks, Quick, Nicks, Bowe, Shorts, M Wilson
TE- Cameron, Donnel, Green
DT- Jernigan
DE- Campbell, Vernon, Nincovich, Casey, Griffen
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby 49ersFaithful80 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:21 pm

pntgvn2399 wrote:
49ersFaithful80 wrote:Theres no argueing that Tebow doesn't have elite top 5 QB potential in fantasy, he was the #1 fantasy QB in his 3 starts as a rookie.

Idk if any of you haters actually watched the games that he started, but he made ALOT of nice throws, along with some bad throws. I usually hate it when people say someone is a "winner" but if anyone is this kid is, I am convinced that if Tebow started the whole year he would have led the broncos to more wins that Orton did.

As far as the questions surrounding John Fox, Mike McCoy is still the OC and he will run the offense so im not too worried.
I would argue that.. Also he was not the #1 QB in weeks 15 or 16, maybe for the last 3 weeks combined he was but he definitely was not those 2 weeks..

I have seen his games, I have seen his throws.. The kid may have all the character in the world to some people however he does not have a good arm or good accuracy at all.. If you too have seen the games you would know that there were A LOT of bad throws along with some nice throws (short little passes).. A lot of great effort in the part of his WR's, in particular Lloyd (that end zone grab on the wobbly duck pass).. In order to be an even "good" QB you have to be able to throw the ball.. He is not going to continue to run with success IMO and then will have to rely on his arm and for a guy who had a 49% completion percentage in those 3 games he started, well that is not a good thing..
He threw a good amount of screens, but if your saying his nice throws were only "short little passes", you obviously didn't watch the games. The dude had a 7.98 yards per attempt, which is good for the 3rd best among QB's. Please people watch the highlights, he makes alot of nice mid-deep range throws..not little short passes, you don't get a 7.98 ypa by checking down alot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2wdgA_yJeI

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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby dlf_ericd » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:22 pm

I think it's fairly easy to look at a guy like Tebow that had so much success on a college level and as popular as he is, and form a very strong opinion one way or the other. The people I want to hear from are the ones that have changed their minds since he was drafted...there's been quite a few "experts" that have changed their opinion about him as an NFL QB after seeing him on the field.

Here's my take: I voted "good" because I think whatever deficiencies he has with his release, arm, whatever, he makes up for with scrambling ability. From the few games I saw with him as the starter, I saw a ton of potential and the ability to make all the NFL throws. If you look at the game where Lloyd caught the "wobbler" in the end zone, you'd also see the bullet that Lance Ball dropped in the end zone that hit him in the numbers.

I know someone said he was completing "short little passes" and struggled on the long ones, but I would disagree. If you look at his average yds per attempt and average yds per completion they compare favorably with guys like Brees, Schaub, Brady, Manning, etc.

Tebow - Y/A 8.0, Y/C 16.0
Brees - Y/A 7.0, Y/C 10.3
Schaub - Y/A 7.6, Y/C 12.0
Brady - Y/A 7.9, Y/C 12.9
Manning - Y/A 6.9, Y/C 10.4

Even in limited action, those don't look like stats from someone dinking and dunking their way down the field. There's plenty technique-wise to criticize Tebow for, but that wasn't accurate. I think the statement that he doesn't have the ability to complete 60% of his passes is crazy too. I'm not saying he will for sure, but if you compare his college stats of 66% completion percentage to others from the SEC, he compares favorably there too.

Tebow - 66.4
Peyton Manning - 62.5
Eli Manning - 60.8
Jay Cutler - 57.2
Matt Stafford - 57.1
Jason Campbell - 64.6

Hmm, interesting huh? If you look at the player individually and not have pre-conceived ideas of him, it helps give a more true picture of reality.
Last edited by dlf_ericd on Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby Misfit74 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:25 pm

Orton is Jake Delhomme with about 3 times less interceptions/fumbles (per game). I'd say the middling athlete but smart and capable Orton is the starter. The super-windup of Tebow will have to change (to begin with) if he is to find NFL success as a starting QB. Orton is a very under-appreciated player and Denver can win with him as the team around him improves (defense). Orton and passing game >> Tebow and passing game.

edit: just read this and added it:
"Broncos VP of Football Operations John Elway indicated Wednesday at Radio Row that Kyle Orton would be the team's starting quarterback if the season began today.
"Kyle is definitely in the equation," Elway said. "It’s not a foregone conclusion we’re going to trade Kyle at all. We still have to evaluate that part. I think a lot of people think it’s automatic. It’s not." Elway stopped well short of backing Tim Tebow as the Broncos' 2011 starter, so this is believable in some respects. If another team offers a second- or third-round pick for Orton, however, it's going to be hard for Denver to resist. Feb. 2 - 3:05 pm et
Source: Denver Post"
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby MR ROURKE » Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:27 am

Misfit74 wrote:Byron Leftwich with wheels. :P
:lol: :clap:

Unfortunitly, Leftwich still has more accuracy when he's done with the windup, which doesn't say much for Tebow.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby pntgvn2399 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:53 pm

airlex wrote:I think it's fairly easy to look at a guy like Tebow that had so much success on a college level and as popular as he is, and form a very strong opinion one way or the other. The people I want to hear from are the ones that have changed their minds since he was drafted...there's been quite a few "experts" that have changed their opinion about him as an NFL QB after seeing him on the field.

Here's my take: I voted "good" because I think whatever deficiencies he has with his release, arm, whatever, he makes up for with scrambling ability. From the few games I saw with him as the starter, I saw a ton of potential and the ability to make all the NFL throws. If you look at the game where Lloyd caught the "wobbler" in the end zone, you'd also see the bullet that Lance Ball dropped in the end zone that hit him in the numbers.

I know someone said he was completing "short little passes" and struggled on the long ones, but I would disagree. If you look at his average yds per attempt and average yds per completion they compare favorably with guys like Brees, Schaub, Brady, Manning, etc.

Tebow - Y/A 8.0, Y/C 16.0
Brees - Y/A 7.0, Y/C 10.3
Schaub - Y/A 7.6, Y/C 12.0
Brady - Y/A 7.9, Y/C 12.9
Manning - Y/A 6.9, Y/C 10.4

Even in limited action, those don't look like stats from someone dinking and dunking their way down the field. There's plenty technique-wise to criticize Tebow for, but that wasn't accurate. I think the statement that he doesn't have the ability to complete 60% of his passes is crazy too. I'm not saying he will for sure, but if you compare his college stats of 66% completion percentage to others from the SEC, he compares favorably there too.

Tebow - 66.4
Peyton Manning - 62.5
Eli Manning - 60.8
Jay Cutler - 57.2
Matt Stafford - 57.1
Jason Campbell - 64.6

Hmm, interesting huh? If you look at the player individually and not have pre-conceived ideas of him, it helps give a more true picture of reality.
Come on now.. You are comparing a guy that played in 3 games with guys that played the whole season.. Also not to start an argument on this but are you really bringing up college stats in regard to completion percentage?? Just because they have a good average in college DOES NOT mean that will be the case in the NFL at all.. I can make a list of 100's of guys that had great percentages in college that had no success in the NFL.. Lets see what he does the whole year (if he is even the starter!!) then come back and compare.. He may have had a 66% in college however in the NFL (where it matters) he is sitting at 49%..
12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- P. Manning, Wilson, Carr
RB- McCoy, Foster, Ball, Vereen, Tate, Ivory, C. Michael, L Murray
WR- Megatron, Dez, Watkins, Gordon, Cooks, Quick, Nicks, Bowe, Shorts, M Wilson
TE- Cameron, Donnel, Green
DT- Jernigan
DE- Campbell, Vernon, Nincovich, Casey, Griffen
LB- David, Shazier, Smith, Tulloch, McClain, Riley, Collins, Alonzo (IR)
CB- Cason, Sherman, McCourty
S- Pollard, Landry, Chancellor, Mathieu, McDonald

12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- Kaepernick, Bortles
RB- Lynch, Bernard Vereen, J. Bell, Ivory, Michael, Robinson, L Murray
WR- Julio, Mi. Floyd, Crabtree, Woods, Lee, Nicks
TE- Graham, Green, Wright
DT- Joseph, Donald
DE- Quinn, C Jones, C Johnson, M Johnson, Clemons, Lawrence
LB-Worrilow, Dansby, Levy, Marshall , McClain, Bartu, Mauga, Alonzo (IR), Johnson (IR)
CB- Jospeh, Verner
S- Bethea, Jones, Blanton

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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby dlf_ericd » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:06 pm

pntgvn2399 wrote:
airlex wrote:I think it's fairly easy to look at a guy like Tebow that had so much success on a college level and as popular as he is, and form a very strong opinion one way or the other. The people I want to hear from are the ones that have changed their minds since he was drafted...there's been quite a few "experts" that have changed their opinion about him as an NFL QB after seeing him on the field.

Here's my take: I voted "good" because I think whatever deficiencies he has with his release, arm, whatever, he makes up for with scrambling ability. From the few games I saw with him as the starter, I saw a ton of potential and the ability to make all the NFL throws. If you look at the game where Lloyd caught the "wobbler" in the end zone, you'd also see the bullet that Lance Ball dropped in the end zone that hit him in the numbers.

I know someone said he was completing "short little passes" and struggled on the long ones, but I would disagree. If you look at his average yds per attempt and average yds per completion they compare favorably with guys like Brees, Schaub, Brady, Manning, etc.

Tebow - Y/A 8.0, Y/C 16.0
Brees - Y/A 7.0, Y/C 10.3
Schaub - Y/A 7.6, Y/C 12.0
Brady - Y/A 7.9, Y/C 12.9
Manning - Y/A 6.9, Y/C 10.4

Even in limited action, those don't look like stats from someone dinking and dunking their way down the field. There's plenty technique-wise to criticize Tebow for, but that wasn't accurate. I think the statement that he doesn't have the ability to complete 60% of his passes is crazy too. I'm not saying he will for sure, but if you compare his college stats of 66% completion percentage to others from the SEC, he compares favorably there too.

Tebow - 66.4
Peyton Manning - 62.5
Eli Manning - 60.8
Jay Cutler - 57.2
Matt Stafford - 57.1
Jason Campbell - 64.6

Hmm, interesting huh? If you look at the player individually and not have pre-conceived ideas of him, it helps give a more true picture of reality.
Come on now.. You are comparing a guy that played in 3 games with guys that played the whole season.. Also not to start an argument on this but are you really bringing up college stats in regard to completion percentage?? Just because they have a good average in college DOES NOT mean that will be the case in the NFL at all.. I can make a list of 100's of guys that had great percentages in college that had no success in the NFL.. Lets see what he does the whole year (if he is even the starter!!) then come back and compare.. He may have had a 66% in college however in the NFL (where it matters) he is sitting at 49%..

Ok, so what would you suggest? In your above paragraph, you tell me two conflicting things - first you say not to compare a guy that played 3 games to a guy that played a whole season. Then you tell me not to look at college stats. So, I'm asking you, what would you like to look at?

If you are going to comment about the 49% and use that as a factor "against" Tebow, then why are you discounting the factors I used "for" Tebow? Didn't they both happen in the 3 games he started? If you go back and read what I wrote, it's clear that I was addressing comments that other posters (yourself included) made that I believed to be incorrect based on what I've seen. You mentioned the "wobbler" to Lloyd, but not the bullet to Ball that he dropped. Someone else made the comment that he COULDN'T be a 60% passer, yet only have 3 games to back that up with. Another person made the comment that he only completed "short little passes" and I was providing information showing that wasn't true. What else would you like?

If you don't like him, then fine. That's totally up to you. I just thought I would try to bring some rational logic to the conversation along with my opinion, instead of just basing it off of opinion alone.
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby pntgvn2399 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:57 pm

airlex wrote:
pntgvn2399 wrote:
airlex wrote:I think it's fairly easy to look at a guy like Tebow that had so much success on a college level and as popular as he is, and form a very strong opinion one way or the other. The people I want to hear from are the ones that have changed their minds since he was drafted...there's been quite a few "experts" that have changed their opinion about him as an NFL QB after seeing him on the field.

Here's my take: I voted "good" because I think whatever deficiencies he has with his release, arm, whatever, he makes up for with scrambling ability. From the few games I saw with him as the starter, I saw a ton of potential and the ability to make all the NFL throws. If you look at the game where Lloyd caught the "wobbler" in the end zone, you'd also see the bullet that Lance Ball dropped in the end zone that hit him in the numbers.

I know someone said he was completing "short little passes" and struggled on the long ones, but I would disagree. If you look at his average yds per attempt and average yds per completion they compare favorably with guys like Brees, Schaub, Brady, Manning, etc.

Tebow - Y/A 8.0, Y/C 16.0
Brees - Y/A 7.0, Y/C 10.3
Schaub - Y/A 7.6, Y/C 12.0
Brady - Y/A 7.9, Y/C 12.9
Manning - Y/A 6.9, Y/C 10.4

Even in limited action, those don't look like stats from someone dinking and dunking their way down the field. There's plenty technique-wise to criticize Tebow for, but that wasn't accurate. I think the statement that he doesn't have the ability to complete 60% of his passes is crazy too. I'm not saying he will for sure, but if you compare his college stats of 66% completion percentage to others from the SEC, he compares favorably there too.


Peyton Manning - 62.5
Eli Manning - 60.8
Jay Cutler - 57.2
Matt Stafford - 57.1
Jason Campbell - 64.6

Hmm, interesting huh? If you look at the player individually and not have pre-conceived ideas of him, it helps give a more true picture of reality.
Come on now.. You are comparing a guy that played in 3 games with guys that played the whole season.. Also not to start an argument on this but are you really bringing up college stats in regard to completion percentage?? Just because they have a good average in college DOES NOT mean that will be the case in the NFL at all.. I can make a list of 100's of guys that had great percentages in college that had no success in the NFL.. Lets see what he does the whole year (if he is even the starter!!) then come back and compare.. He may have had a 66% in college however in the NFL (where it matters) he is sitting at 49%..

Ok, so what would you suggest? In your above paragraph, you tell me two conflicting things - first you say not to compare a guy that played 3 games to a guy that played a whole season. Then you tell me not to look at college stats. So, I'm asking you, what would you like to look at?

If you are going to comment about the 49% and use that as a factor "against" Tebow, then why are you discounting the factors I used "for" Tebow? Didn't they both happen in the 3 games he started? If you go back and read what I wrote, it's clear that I was addressing comments that other posters (yourself included) made that I believed to be incorrect based on what I've seen. You mentioned the "wobbler" to Lloyd, but not the bullet to Ball that he dropped. Someone else made the comment that he COULDN'T be a 60% passer, yet only have 3 games to back that up with. Another person made the comment that he only completed "short little passes" and I was providing information showing that wasn't true. What else would you like?

If you don't like him, then fine. That's totally up to you. I just thought I would try to bring some rational logic to the conversation along with my opinion, instead of just basing it off of opinion alone.
What would I like to look at? Well for making comparisons at least make them relevant and not compare a guy that played 3 games to guys that played a whole season.. Do you feel that is a logical or fair comparision?

In my comment about the 49% completion percentage I didn't go and pull up numbers for Brady ect because that is not a logical comparision.. What you did was totally discredit the 49% completion precentage and went back to his college days which have absolutely nothing to do with the NFL.. From what I remember didn't Jimmy Clausen have a 68 or 70% rate in college his senior year? Again college stats mean nothing now that they are in the NFL.. Also showing a QB's Y/C and Y/A does not mean he did not throw a majority of his passes that were "short".. Here are stats from ESPN in regards to his passes...

Week 15:
Tebow threw a total of 16 passes (8 completed).. Of those 16 passes exactly half (8) were deemed "short"..

Week 16:
Tebow threw a total of 29 passes (16 completed).. Of those 29 passes 21 were deemed "short"..

Week 17:
Tebow threw a total of 36 passes (16 completed).. Of those 36 passes 31 were deemed "short".. Of the 5 non short passes 2 were INT's

So I think you can safely say that most of his completions were in fact "short little passes"..
12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- P. Manning, Wilson, Carr
RB- McCoy, Foster, Ball, Vereen, Tate, Ivory, C. Michael, L Murray
WR- Megatron, Dez, Watkins, Gordon, Cooks, Quick, Nicks, Bowe, Shorts, M Wilson
TE- Cameron, Donnel, Green
DT- Jernigan
DE- Campbell, Vernon, Nincovich, Casey, Griffen
LB- David, Shazier, Smith, Tulloch, McClain, Riley, Collins, Alonzo (IR)
CB- Cason, Sherman, McCourty
S- Pollard, Landry, Chancellor, Mathieu, McDonald

12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- Kaepernick, Bortles
RB- Lynch, Bernard Vereen, J. Bell, Ivory, Michael, Robinson, L Murray
WR- Julio, Mi. Floyd, Crabtree, Woods, Lee, Nicks
TE- Graham, Green, Wright
DT- Joseph, Donald
DE- Quinn, C Jones, C Johnson, M Johnson, Clemons, Lawrence
LB-Worrilow, Dansby, Levy, Marshall , McClain, Bartu, Mauga, Alonzo (IR), Johnson (IR)
CB- Jospeh, Verner
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby pntgvn2399 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:13 pm

In any case, no reason to get an argument about opinions of people as everyone judges differently.. We will see what happens in the years ahead however in my OPINION :) I have not seen anything that has me to believe that his college success will transfer to the NFL.. From what I saw most of his deep passes were wobbly and off target and after teams watch film on this you will see the safties begin to creep up.. Then there will be more double coverage on the short routes and they will try to make him beat them deep, and from what I see that will not be possible and he will fail.. That is my OPINION and is just based on what I have seen so far.
12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- P. Manning, Wilson, Carr
RB- McCoy, Foster, Ball, Vereen, Tate, Ivory, C. Michael, L Murray
WR- Megatron, Dez, Watkins, Gordon, Cooks, Quick, Nicks, Bowe, Shorts, M Wilson
TE- Cameron, Donnel, Green
DT- Jernigan
DE- Campbell, Vernon, Nincovich, Casey, Griffen
LB- David, Shazier, Smith, Tulloch, McClain, Riley, Collins, Alonzo (IR)
CB- Cason, Sherman, McCourty
S- Pollard, Landry, Chancellor, Mathieu, McDonald

12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- Kaepernick, Bortles
RB- Lynch, Bernard Vereen, J. Bell, Ivory, Michael, Robinson, L Murray
WR- Julio, Mi. Floyd, Crabtree, Woods, Lee, Nicks
TE- Graham, Green, Wright
DT- Joseph, Donald
DE- Quinn, C Jones, C Johnson, M Johnson, Clemons, Lawrence
LB-Worrilow, Dansby, Levy, Marshall , McClain, Bartu, Mauga, Alonzo (IR), Johnson (IR)
CB- Jospeh, Verner
S- Bethea, Jones, Blanton

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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby MR ROURKE » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:15 pm

It's pretty common knowledge that it takes 3-4 games for defensive coordinaters to get enough tape to fully understand a QB's strength's and weakness. Comparing college stats with other QB that made it in the NFL is meaningless. I won't bother to list 50 or more QB's who had good "stats" that weren't even NFL caliber... let alone the NFL flops.

If Tebow can't complete more then 50% of his passes when defensive coordinaters aren't fully certain how to game plan him, then that means he isn't doing very well. Especially after he has had almost an entire season to take in the O. It's not like he got thrown out there week1. Jamarcus Russell had about a 50% pass completion percentage.

For comparison 2010 statistics
Tebow 82 attempts - 41 incomplete and 41 complete - 50%
5 dropped
18 poor throw
9 pass defended
0 hit at the line
6 other
3 intercepted

V.Young 156 attempts - 93 completion and 63 incomplete - 59.6%
5 dropped
28 poor throw
20 pass defended
hit at line 3
other 4
intercepted 3

VY has jsut about twice the attempts to compare bad QB to bad QB.

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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby dlf_ericd » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:31 pm

pntgvn2399 wrote:
airlex wrote:
pntgvn2399 wrote: Come on now.. You are comparing a guy that played in 3 games with guys that played the whole season.. Also not to start an argument on this but are you really bringing up college stats in regard to completion percentage?? Just because they have a good average in college DOES NOT mean that will be the case in the NFL at all.. I can make a list of 100's of guys that had great percentages in college that had no success in the NFL.. Lets see what he does the whole year (if he is even the starter!!) then come back and compare.. He may have had a 66% in college however in the NFL (where it matters) he is sitting at 49%..

Ok, so what would you suggest? In your above paragraph, you tell me two conflicting things - first you say not to compare a guy that played 3 games to a guy that played a whole season. Then you tell me not to look at college stats. So, I'm asking you, what would you like to look at?

If you are going to comment about the 49% and use that as a factor "against" Tebow, then why are you discounting the factors I used "for" Tebow? Didn't they both happen in the 3 games he started? If you go back and read what I wrote, it's clear that I was addressing comments that other posters (yourself included) made that I believed to be incorrect based on what I've seen. You mentioned the "wobbler" to Lloyd, but not the bullet to Ball that he dropped. Someone else made the comment that he COULDN'T be a 60% passer, yet only have 3 games to back that up with. Another person made the comment that he only completed "short little passes" and I was providing information showing that wasn't true. What else would you like?

If you don't like him, then fine. That's totally up to you. I just thought I would try to bring some rational logic to the conversation along with my opinion, instead of just basing it off of opinion alone.
What would I like to look at? Well for making comparisons at least make them relevant and not compare a guy that played 3 games to guys that played a whole season.. Do you feel that is a logical or fair comparision?

In my comment about the 49% completion percentage I didn't go and pull up numbers for Brady ect because that is not a logical comparision.. What you did was totally discredit the 49% completion precentage and went back to his college days which have absolutely nothing to do with the NFL.. From what I remember didn't Jimmy Clausen have a 68 or 70% rate in college his senior year? Again college stats mean nothing now that they are in the NFL.. Also showing a QB's Y/C and Y/A does not mean he did not throw a majority of his passes that were "short".. Here are stats from ESPN in regards to his passes...

Week 15:
Tebow threw a total of 16 passes (8 completed).. Of those 16 passes exactly half (8) were deemed "short"..

Week 16:
Tebow threw a total of 29 passes (16 completed).. Of those 29 passes 21 were deemed "short"..

Week 17:
Tebow threw a total of 36 passes (16 completed).. Of those 36 passes 31 were deemed "short".. Of the 5 non short passes 2 were INT's

So I think you can safely say that most of his completions were in fact "short little passes"..
Well, I read through your posts and I still can't tell if you're saying to look at the small sample size of 3 games or ignore the small sample size of 3 games...Showing a QB's Y/C and Y/A is a very good reflection of the kind of throws a QB is making. Not sure where you got your info from (even though it says ESPN), but that's not what I've found...

According to Pro Football Focus, who grades every game, every player, every play - Tebow's passing attempt breakdown is as follows:

Behind Line of Scrimmage - 26%
0-9 yds - 18%
10-19 yds - 38%
20+ yds - 19%

Here's the link to the ESPN stats that back that up - http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/s ... erId=13200

Before this becomes any more of a pissing match than it already is, my overall point is still the same. Most of the posts here have been based on opinion and quick peeks into certain games. I'm proposing we add a little logic, numbers, and facts to back up those opinions. I apologize that all we have to go on so far is a 4 years of college football and 3 games as a starter in the NFL, but it is what it is. Maybe we can revisit this conversation in a year or so.

Edit - I also forgot to add that if you only look at the 3 games Tebow started, his completion percentage was actually 55.4%, which is a considerable difference after getting 1st team practice reps for the 1st time. Obviously, not good enough yet, but better.
Last edited by dlf_ericd on Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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pntgvn2399
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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby pntgvn2399 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:44 pm

I went through the 3 games on ESPN under play by play and it has a description of each pass.. That page you have posted there though made it a lot easier haha.. Of his 82 pass attempts 68 were from 0-20 yards while 14 of those further than 20 yards.. So in other words 83% of his passes were under 20 yards.. Also almost half (49%) were between 0-10 yards.. In any case ill leave it at that and revisit it in a year and where it stands then.. :thumbup:

Edit: Where on earth did you get those numbers to make 55%? He was 40 for 81 as a starter with a completion percentage of 49.4%.
12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- P. Manning, Wilson, Carr
RB- McCoy, Foster, Ball, Vereen, Tate, Ivory, C. Michael, L Murray
WR- Megatron, Dez, Watkins, Gordon, Cooks, Quick, Nicks, Bowe, Shorts, M Wilson
TE- Cameron, Donnel, Green
DT- Jernigan
DE- Campbell, Vernon, Nincovich, Casey, Griffen
LB- David, Shazier, Smith, Tulloch, McClain, Riley, Collins, Alonzo (IR)
CB- Cason, Sherman, McCourty
S- Pollard, Landry, Chancellor, Mathieu, McDonald

12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- Kaepernick, Bortles
RB- Lynch, Bernard Vereen, J. Bell, Ivory, Michael, Robinson, L Murray
WR- Julio, Mi. Floyd, Crabtree, Woods, Lee, Nicks
TE- Graham, Green, Wright
DT- Joseph, Donald
DE- Quinn, C Jones, C Johnson, M Johnson, Clemons, Lawrence
LB-Worrilow, Dansby, Levy, Marshall , McClain, Bartu, Mauga, Alonzo (IR), Johnson (IR)
CB- Jospeh, Verner
S- Bethea, Jones, Blanton

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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby 49ersFaithful80 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:51 am

pntgvn2399 wrote:I went through the 3 games on ESPN under play by play and it has a description of each pass.. That page you have posted there though made it a lot easier haha.. Of his 82 pass attempts 68 were from 0-20 yards while 14 of those further than 20 yards.. So in other words 83% of his passes were under 20 yards.. Also almost half (49%) were between 0-10 yards.. In any case ill leave it at that and revisit it in a year and where it stands then.. :thumbup:

Edit: Where on earth did you get those numbers to make 55%? He was 40 for 81 as a starter with a completion percentage of 49.4%.
Your really trying to fathom some kind evidence to these "little short passes", YPA IS the way experts judge a QB on what kind of passes they are making. Tebow had an excellent YPA and thus it is a fact that he often makes completions down field. HIs average completion was for 16 yards...does that seem like someone who throws lots of "little short passes"?? apparently every QB in the NFL besides Rodgers and Rivers throw tons of little short passes then.

...or just watch the highlights I posted, and you will witness with your eyes his multitude of mid to deep range completions, there are plenty of areas you can critique Tebow but him being a captain checkdown is not valid.

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Re: Tim Tebow

Postby pntgvn2399 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:22 am

49ersFaithful80 wrote:
pntgvn2399 wrote:I went through the 3 games on ESPN under play by play and it has a description of each pass.. That page you have posted there though made it a lot easier haha.. Of his 82 pass attempts 68 were from 0-20 yards while 14 of those further than 20 yards.. So in other words 83% of his passes were under 20 yards.. Also almost half (49%) were between 0-10 yards.. In any case ill leave it at that and revisit it in a year and where it stands then.. :thumbup:

Edit: Where on earth did you get those numbers to make 55%? He was 40 for 81 as a starter with a completion percentage of 49.4%.
Your really trying to fathom some kind evidence to these "little short passes", YPA IS the way experts judge a QB on what kind of passes they are making. Tebow had an excellent YPA and thus it is a fact that he often makes completions down field. HIs average completion was for 16 yards...does that seem like someone who throws lots of "little short passes"?? apparently every QB in the NFL besides Rodgers and Rivers throw tons of little short passes then.

...or just watch the highlights I posted, and you will witness with your eyes his multitude of mid to deep range completions, there are plenty of areas you can critique Tebow but him being a captain checkdown is not valid.
Say what you want about YPA however that does not in any way show how many times they throw the ball deep downfield.. In NO way.. Here is an example.. You have a QB that checks down to his RB and he completes 5 of 10 passes for 80 yards, right there you have a YPA at 8 and a YPC at 16, which are Tebow's numbers.. So you are telling me that because of those numbers that QB really didn't throw just screen passes, even though everyone would have watched him do so with their own eyes??

Say what you want about the YPA and use it to determine that he throws the ball down the field, however how can you sit here and argue against the stats? 68 of his 82 passes were under 20 yards (83%).. And 49% of all his passes were less than 10 yards.. I am sorry but if you are going to say that he throws all these deep passes and does it so well at least have something to back it up and not a highlight film showing some throws.. 49% completions, if he is magically throwing the ball downfield more and all these sites have their numbers wrong, then maybe he should rethink doing it and try to get above 50% next year?? Who was arguably the worst QB in the NFL last year? Jimmy Clausen? Even he had a 52% completion percentage if that says anything.

Go back and look at what I posted, I am not sure how you can continue to argue about factual stats.
12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- P. Manning, Wilson, Carr
RB- McCoy, Foster, Ball, Vereen, Tate, Ivory, C. Michael, L Murray
WR- Megatron, Dez, Watkins, Gordon, Cooks, Quick, Nicks, Bowe, Shorts, M Wilson
TE- Cameron, Donnel, Green
DT- Jernigan
DE- Campbell, Vernon, Nincovich, Casey, Griffen
LB- David, Shazier, Smith, Tulloch, McClain, Riley, Collins, Alonzo (IR)
CB- Cason, Sherman, McCourty
S- Pollard, Landry, Chancellor, Mathieu, McDonald

12 Team PPR IDP
Start 1 QB, 1 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 Flex 3-4-4 D
QB- Kaepernick, Bortles
RB- Lynch, Bernard Vereen, J. Bell, Ivory, Michael, Robinson, L Murray
WR- Julio, Mi. Floyd, Crabtree, Woods, Lee, Nicks
TE- Graham, Green, Wright
DT- Joseph, Donald
DE- Quinn, C Jones, C Johnson, M Johnson, Clemons, Lawrence
LB-Worrilow, Dansby, Levy, Marshall , McClain, Bartu, Mauga, Alonzo (IR), Johnson (IR)
CB- Jospeh, Verner
S- Bethea, Jones, Blanton


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