The Deshaun Watson Discussion Thread

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby Ice » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:09 pm

The reason his 4th year is important is because it shows the continued trajectory of an inefficient leader on the field. It also shows just how far apart the talent gap is over the first 4 years of their respective careers. NOT CLOSE at ALL.

As someone who studies QB's very closely, I thought Denver fleeced the Bears in that deal.

You're correct he didn't seem to care and wasn't a good leader but thinking the Broncos didn't see that after 3 years of extremely close contact in practice and games would be the only real shocking development.

Can't have it both ways and it silly to continually buy a media narrative. He wasn't close to a great QB after 3 years. He was 17-20 as a starting QB. He had 2 winning seasons in his career BTW.

BTW People seem to forget Orton was also part of that trade and had a better 2009 season than Cutler.
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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby OhCruelestRanter » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:18 pm

Guys, this argument is inane.

Cutler was traded because his team thought they were better off moving on from him.

Watson is only in the discussion of being traded because he is allegedly demanding it.

These situations are not remotely comparable and everybody is dumber for having to read this. Stop it.
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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby Sriracha » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:39 pm

OhCruelestRanter wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:18 pm Guys, this argument is inane.

Cutler was traded because his team thought they were better off moving on from him.

Watson is only in the discussion of being traded because he is allegedly demanding it.

These situations are not remotely comparable and everybody is dumber for having to read this. Stop it.
Cutler was traded because he forced his way out after new HC Josh McDaniels "disrespected him".

Where does this narrative that DEN wanted to trade him come from??

For the record, I absolutely believe Watson will shine wherever he ends up. This is not an attempt to say that Watson could have a Jay Cutler like career spiral.. Watson is a competitor who's forcing his way out in an effort to win football games. Cutler was a pouty beach who wanted out after his feelings got hurt. He has more similarities with Carson Wentz than Deshaun Watson.

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby OhCruelestRanter » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:47 pm

Sriracha wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:39 pm
OhCruelestRanter wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:18 pm Guys, this argument is inane.

Cutler was traded because his team thought they were better off moving on from him.

Watson is only in the discussion of being traded because he is allegedly demanding it.

These situations are not remotely comparable and everybody is dumber for having to read this. Stop it.
Cutler was traded because he forced his way out after new HC Josh McDaniels "disrespected him".

Where does this narrative that DEN wanted to trade him come from??
Homie... do you know how Josh McDaniels and Co. “disrespected” him? I’ll give you one guess.

They tried to trade for Matt Cassel.

Again, Denver wanted to move on from Cutler. Houston absolutely believed in Watson and signed him to a major contract before he allegedly demanded out. The situations are not remotely comparable.

If I recall correctly, you’re generally a solid poster here. Stop this foolishness.
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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby Sriracha » Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:55 pm

OhCruelestRanter wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:47 pm Homie... do you know how Josh McDaniels and Co. “disrespected” him? I’ll give you one guess.

They tried to trade for Matt Cassel.

Again, Denver wanted to move on from Cutler. Houston absolutely believed in Watson and signed him to a major contract before he allegedly demanded out. The situations are not remotely comparable.

If I recall correctly, you’re generally a solid poster here. Stop this foolishness.
They inquired about Matt Cassel because McDaniels was already familiar with him during his time in NE.

Given that he was eventually traded for a 2nd round pick, they absolutely could've traded for him if they really wanted to.

They then tried to "smooth things over" with Cutler and bleep hit the fan, eventually leading Cutler to demand a trade. DEN was not the side that wanted to trade him.

I addressed in an earlier post about why I don't think the Watson/Cutler situations are that similar; but this idea that Cutler was a known bum that DEN was looking to move away from, and CHI traded 2 1sts and a 3rd for is just incorrect. Cutler was thought of as a franchise QB before the trade.

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby CGW » Mon Jan 25, 2021 1:12 pm

Sriracha wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:55 pm
OhCruelestRanter wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:47 pm Homie... do you know how Josh McDaniels and Co. “disrespected” him? I’ll give you one guess.

They tried to trade for Matt Cassel.

Again, Denver wanted to move on from Cutler. Houston absolutely believed in Watson and signed him to a major contract before he allegedly demanded out. The situations are not remotely comparable.

If I recall correctly, you’re generally a solid poster here. Stop this foolishness.
They inquired about Matt Cassel because McDaniels was already familiar with him during his time in NE.

Given that he was eventually traded for a 2nd round pick, they absolutely could've traded for him if they really wanted to.

They then tried to "smooth things over" with Cutler and bleep hit the fan, eventually leading Cutler to demand a trade. DEN was not the side that wanted to trade him.

I addressed in an earlier post about why I don't think the Watson/Cutler situations are that similar; but this idea that Cutler was a known bum that DEN was looking to move away from, and CHI traded 2 1sts and a 3rd for is just incorrect. Cutler was thought of as a franchise QB before the trade.
He wasn't a "bum" (early on) but I dont remember thinking he was a strong franchise QB at any point.

This situation is nothing like the Cutler situation other than that it's two QBs being discussed in trades. Let's leave it at that.

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby Vcize » Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:32 pm

Ice wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:16 am
Vcize wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:26 pm
Ice wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:36 am

Not really, the game isn't so different that turnovers don't matter. Cutler may be the worst in history at throwing interceptions in the red zone. I haven't checked those stats in years but you may want to check it out. Not all Interceptions are equal but Comparing the talent of these two as remotely close is revisionist history.

Cutler did have a rocket arm but his decision making was the reason he was traded. Cutler was a coach killer.
Yeesh talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You're using a bunch of stuff that happened after the trade with Cutler to evaluate what his value was before the trade.

At the time Cutler being traded was considered one of the most shocking moves in NFL history.

At the time he was traded he wasn't considered as good as Watson is now, but it was close. At the time everyone thought that he was absolutely a 10-time pro bowl franchise making QB. At the time every young QB threw a bunch of interceptions, and really every QB in general. There wasn't a single QB in the top 10 in passing yards that had single digit interceptions. Big Ben and Tom Brady were throwing 13-15 interceptions as "game managers" in that era.

A 3rd year QB throwing 18 interceptions on the 2nd highest passing volume in the league was absolutely 100% a non-factor in most people's minds at that point. He threw fewer INTs per attempt than Roethlisberger, Favre, Brady and basically the same INTs per attempt as Rodgers/Brees.
Wow, Stop trying to compare Cutler to any great QB. Watson is on the great track.

Cutler was an average QB at best. The only time he will sniff the HOF is if he visits it someday.

First 4 years CUTLER
INT's Comp % Rating
5 int. 59.1% 88.5
14 int. 63.6 88.1
18 int. 62.3 86.0
26 int. 60.3 76.8

Watson's
8 int. 61.8 103.0
9 int. 68.3 103.1
12 int. 67.3 98
7 int. 70.2 112.4

Career To date Watson INT% 2.1 Rating 104.6
Career Cutler INT% 3.3 Rating 85.3

Cutler's best passer rating was 92.3 in 2015 over his 12 year career. Watson's worst @ 98 was far better.

I get you think the Cutler trade was all about him but his Int's and Rating dropped 3 straight years. Coaches and GM's don't like to see that as they are great indicators the player isn't a franchise QB. Cutler's numbers really spiraled downward in a big way in year 4 and his average play continued the remainder of his career.

It was shocking to you but it didn't seem shocking to a lot of us. Cutler wasn't nearly as good as you are making him out to be. He did have a solid arm but that alone doesn't make a great player.
I don't know why we have to keep going around in circles with you comparing a stat across different eras without context, people giving you the context to show how that stat compared to peers at the time, only for you to dig up another stat to compare across eras and have the same repeated over and over.

There were 10 QBs with a QB rating of 100+ this year. In 2008 there was one.

Future hall of fame QBs at the time had QB ratings anywhere from 80 (Roethlisberger) to 95 (Peyton) with everyone else in between.
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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby Ice » Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:37 pm

Vcize wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 5:32 pm
Ice wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:16 am
Vcize wrote: Sun Jan 24, 2021 7:26 pm

Yeesh talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You're using a bunch of stuff that happened after the trade with Cutler to evaluate what his value was before the trade.

At the time Cutler being traded was considered one of the most shocking moves in NFL history.

At the time he was traded he wasn't considered as good as Watson is now, but it was close. At the time everyone thought that he was absolutely a 10-time pro bowl franchise making QB. At the time every young QB threw a bunch of interceptions, and really every QB in general. There wasn't a single QB in the top 10 in passing yards that had single digit interceptions. Big Ben and Tom Brady were throwing 13-15 interceptions as "game managers" in that era.

A 3rd year QB throwing 18 interceptions on the 2nd highest passing volume in the league was absolutely 100% a non-factor in most people's minds at that point. He threw fewer INTs per attempt than Roethlisberger, Favre, Brady and basically the same INTs per attempt as Rodgers/Brees.
Wow, Stop trying to compare Cutler to any great QB. Watson is on the great track.

Cutler was an average QB at best. The only time he will sniff the HOF is if he visits it someday.

First 4 years CUTLER
INT's Comp % Rating
5 int. 59.1% 88.5
14 int. 63.6 88.1
18 int. 62.3 86.0
26 int. 60.3 76.8

Watson's
8 int. 61.8 103.0
9 int. 68.3 103.1
12 int. 67.3 98
7 int. 70.2 112.4

Career To date Watson INT% 2.1 Rating 104.6
Career Cutler INT% 3.3 Rating 85.3

Cutler's best passer rating was 92.3 in 2015 over his 12 year career. Watson's worst @ 98 was far better.

I get you think the Cutler trade was all about him but his Int's and Rating dropped 3 straight years. Coaches and GM's don't like to see that as they are great indicators the player isn't a franchise QB. Cutler's numbers really spiraled downward in a big way in year 4 and his average play continued the remainder of his career.

It was shocking to you but it didn't seem shocking to a lot of us. Cutler wasn't nearly as good as you are making him out to be. He did have a solid arm but that alone doesn't make a great player.
I don't know why we have to keep going around in circles with you comparing a stat across different eras without context, people giving you the context to show how that stat compared to peers at the time, only for you to dig up another stat to compare across eras and have the same repeated over and over.

There were 10 QBs with a QB rating of 100+ this year. In 2008 there was one.

Future hall of fame QBs at the time had QB ratings anywhere from 80 (Roethlisberger) to 95 (Peyton) with everyone else in between.
Era? Come on Man!

Cutler started 14 games in 2017. ....... Last I checked he wasn't strapping up his leather helmet. In 2017; 22 QB's had a better rating than Cutler and Cutler's rating was higher than it was in both 2009 and 2016.

I wasn't the one that said he was close to Watson. Anyone that really thinks that doesn't know anything about football. So the SB winning QB's like Ben career 94 rating, Manning 96.5 and Brady is 97.3 are way way better than Cutler in the magic era of the last two decades.

The stud Cutler who got coaches fired was 85.3. That is a HUGE difference by NFL standards.

I get trying to win some argument but really......

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby thebeast » Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:37 pm

Ice wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:41 am
thebadferret wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:05 am Am I the only one who thinks more than 3 (if even) first round picks will never happen? Do the Texans hold any leverage in that negotiations?
The leverage is a Billionaire owner who is just as likely to let Watson sit out and complain in the corner while wearing the dunce cap. Watson does have some say so as he has to accept a deal but thinking he will just sit out and withhold his services would be a foolish on his part given the money at stake.

Players simply will not win a money battle. Watson already took a 27 million signing bonus from the owner and is due another 45 million or so in the next 2 years. That same owner holds those dollars in his wallet. Houston owns the asset rights so they have plenty of leverage.

The fact there are at least 25 owners in the league that want to win a SB an also have unlimited resources is where deals this size are negotiated. None of those owners have a QB anywhere close to Watson's talent.

Watson seems pretty smart and probably has legit agents around him so the only real way a deal goes down is a win/win. Further, Caserio is no dummy. He was director of Player Personnel for the Patriots since 2008. He has worked side by side with arguably the best system in football for years. One would think he has a pretty strong grasp on value.

No telling if a deal goes down but if it does it should be one of the bigger deals ever.
Too bad that system went to Tampa Bay this year and can’t help him in Texas.

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby Ice » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:35 am

thebeast wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:37 pm
Ice wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:41 am He has worked side by side with arguably the best system in football for years. One would think he has a pretty strong grasp on value.
Too bad that system went to Tampa Bay this year and can’t help him in Texas.
Hahaha Pretty hard to argue with that! :thumbup:
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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby bjd5211 » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:55 pm

Texans just hired the Ravens WR coach as their HC... That organization is a mess.

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby StripesOfKC » Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:06 am

bjd5211 wrote: Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:55 pm Texans just hired the Ravens WR coach as their HC... That organization is a mess.
Don't sell him short: he was also a WR coach for the Chiefs when we had an entire season with 0 WR TDs

Seriously though I get the Bienemy skepticism: I really don't know what he does and if he does it well

Culley though? I know what he does and he sucks at it

Such a weird hire

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby bjd5211 » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:03 am

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSchefter ... 0947743748

Schefter reporting Watson has officially requested a trade.

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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby YouMightDieTryin » Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:55 am

RIP my Cooks shares :(
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Re: Deshaun Watson's new deal

Postby killer_of_giants » Thu Jan 28, 2021 9:16 am

i really hope he goes to the jets (my mims shares have nothing to do with it... :whistle: )


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