Tanking/Rebuilding and Potential Points

[Sriracha]

But also, if they mattered more according to consensus they would already be rostered. All I'm saying is that there can be fringe players on IR, available on waivers, depending on league depth, settings, etc. and I am guessing a lot of owners have taken advantage of that for an extra dart throw.

Sure, and no one would be complaining about this guy's taxi squad if he weren't starting 4th string WRs instead of D'andre Swift.

I don't really think those 2 things are comparable. A player without the appropriate injury designation can't be on IR...most leagues won't even let you set a lineup that way, and you can demote a player again if they get hurt again. What players "should" be promoted from taxi squad is not so black and white, and you can't demote them again once promoted.

Both utilizations go against their purpose.

A taxi squad is there to allow rookies to get their bearings in the NFL without eating up a roster spot.
IR is there to allow you to fill an injured player's spot.

They are not there to sneak extra roster spots.

If you feel that people should be allow to utilize them as restricted roster spots, the points they score should at least be added to maximum potential points.

Just my opinion, but it's a firm one.

I'm sorry, this makes no sense.

Taxi squad is certainly being used as an extension of the roster. In this case, if taxi squad players are being used in PP, what the heck is the benefit of the taxi squad? You either have the taxi squad, and utilize it, or you don't have a taxi squad.

Taxi squads make players like Bryan Edwards, Jordan Love, Jalen Hurts rosterable despite their roles expected to not be defined for at least a year.

They are not meant for players like D'andre Swift who are rookies that have already broken out and already have defined roles in their offense and have been solid RB2s throughout the year.

I'm tired of arguing about this, though.. if you feel differently I have no issue as long as everyone in your league is on the same page.

[remedy29]

Both utilizations go against their purpose.

A taxi squad is there to allow rookies to get their bearings in the NFL without eating up a roster spot.
IR is there to allow you to fill an injured player's spot.

They are not there to sneak extra roster spots.

If you feel that people should be allow to utilize them as restricted roster spots, the points they score should at least be added to maximum potential points.

Just my opinion, but it's a firm one.

I'm sorry, this makes no sense.

Taxi squad is certainly being used as an extension of the roster. In this case, if taxi squad players are being used in PP, what the heck is the benefit of the taxi squad? You either have the taxi squad, and utilize it, or you don't have a taxi squad.

Taxi squads make players like Bryan Edwards, Jordan Love, Jalen Hurts rosterable despite their roles expected to not be defined for at least a year.

They are not meant for players like D'andre Swift who are rookies that have already broken out and already have defined roles in their offense and have been solid RB2s throughout the year.

I'm tired of arguing about this, though.. if you feel differently I have no issue as long as everyone in your league is on the same page.

Who or what makes the decision between developmental player vs a player who has broken out? Say if a player has 1 big week (Ruggs) but basically just sucks.

It sounds like you are against having taxi squad players. Which is fine. You can either play in a league where the entire league can utilize and benefit, where need be, from taxi squad players, or just have a active squad players. I'm not saying having all players on active roster is bad, it's just different than allowing rookies on taxi squad until called up to active roster. It seems straight forward, I'm not even sure where there is any argument.

[Sriracha]

I'm sorry, this makes no sense.

Taxi squad is certainly being used as an extension of the roster. In this case, if taxi squad players are being used in PP, what the heck is the benefit of the taxi squad? You either have the taxi squad, and utilize it, or you don't have a taxi squad.

Taxi squads make players like Bryan Edwards, Jordan Love, Jalen Hurts rosterable despite their roles expected to not be defined for at least a year.

They are not meant for players like D'andre Swift who are rookies that have already broken out and already have defined roles in their offense and have been solid RB2s throughout the year.

I'm tired of arguing about this, though.. if you feel differently I have no issue as long as everyone in your league is on the same page.

Who or what makes the decision between developmental player vs a player who has broken out? Say if a player has 1 big week (Ruggs) but basically just sucks.

It sounds like you are against having taxi squad players. Which is fine. You can either play in a league where the entire league can utilize and benefit, where need be, from taxi squad players, or just have a active squad players. I'm not saying having all players on active roster is bad, it's just different than allowing rookies on taxi squad until called up to active roster. It seems straight forward, I'm not even sure where there is any argument.

Not at all, I enjoy taxi squads much more than huge globs of roster spots. It adds to the strategy involved in roster configuration. Jordan Love for instance is unrosterable without a taxi squad imo. Sometimes you guess wrong and have to bring these players up. In fact, I very rarely have a full taxi squad by the end of the season as I elevate my rookies as they emerge

In response to your question, there isnt a threshhold i care enough about to create, but you know it when you see it.

I actually don’t particularly care about when you bring up your players or if you decide to take full advantage of your league rules; so long as your leaguemates are in agreement.. but in this scenario where you are using max potential points as the measuring stick for draft position they should obviously be included.

Or if not, they should be poachable.

His leaguemates obviously have issue with if as well, which is the origin of this thread. So it’s obviously not just me.

[boochluke]

But also, if they mattered more according to consensus they would already be rostered. All I'm saying is that there can be fringe players on IR, available on waivers, depending on league depth, settings, etc. and I am guessing a lot of owners have taken advantage of that for an extra dart throw.

Sure, and no one would be complaining about this guy's taxi squad if he weren't starting 4th string WRs instead of D'andre Swift.

Totally agreed. I was originally just opining on a general case where IR spots could be used as extra roster spots instead of their presumed intended purpose. When it comes to OP's situation with the taxi squad I believe the strategy is valid as long as it's within the bounds of the rules, but I also see where league-mates wouldn't necessarily see it that way.

[The MAC Machine]

in this scenario where you are using max potential points as the measuring stick for draft position they should obviously be included.

Or if not, they should be poachable.

What I’m hearing is that “the young players that are producing should be in play in some way or another, and if they aren’t it shouldn’t come without risk”.

I can get on board with that alternative. I don’t think taxi squad players should be included in total points. But I also don’t think that there should be an air tight seal or total control in preventing productive rookies from being activated.

[ThunderTung]

Why is this turning into an argument about taxi squads? Its really a matter of whether tanking is allowed in this league. Based on using potential points for standings, I would assume not.

So you need to seal your taxi rules up a bit. the size is not the issue. Its really just a matter of integrity.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I use 10 man taxi's and have never had an issue like this. But we also strictly forbid tanking, and have measures against it (punishment, rules, etc.) including a last place monetary charge. For new owners I usually give them a few heads up when things come up, but everyone else is on the same page and all Is well and good.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't do anything about this season. He followed the rules. But I would have a conversation with your league in the offseason about why things like this shouldnt happen, and enact any measures that you think would remedy the situation.

Some things we do: loser bracket for the top 4 draft picks, once your promote a player, you can't demote them again for another 6 weeks, if found tanking, loss of draft picks could happen (admittedly harsh, but I haven't had to do that)

Unless of course your league is fine with tanking, then just leave it alone because that's exactly what he's doing

[The MAC Machine]

Why is this turning into an argument about taxi squads? Its really a matter of whether tanking is allowed in this league. Based on using potential points for standings, I would assume not.

So you need to seal your taxi rules up a bit. the size is not the issue. Its really just a matter of integrity.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I use 10 man taxi's and have never had an issue like this. But we also strictly forbid tanking, and have measures against it (punishment, rules, etc.) including a last place monetary charge. For new owners I usually give them a few heads up when things come up, but everyone else is on the same page and all Is well and good.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't do anything about this season. He followed the rules. But I would have a conversation with your league in the offseason about why things like this shouldnt happen, and enact any measures that you think would remedy the situation.

Some things we do: loser bracket for the top 4 draft picks, once your promote a player, you can't demote them again for another 6 weeks, if found tanking, loss of draft picks could happen (admittedly harsh, but I haven't had to do that)

Unless of course your league is fine with tanking, then just leave it alone because that's exactly what he's doing

Its becoming a conversation about taxi squads because in this scenario the nature of the taxi squad provided the manager with an acceptable choice. “Tanking” conversations are all a matter of control and perceived effort. By requiring someone to play a certain way you strip them of choices that were naturally provided. I think many look at “tanking” as a lack of effort, but if you really think about this scenario, the owner actually takes considerable effort in using this strategy. It may not be the effort people LIKE. But that doesn’t make it WRONG.

The reason why it would be silly to consider this “tanking” is because there are no guidelines that would clearly define when players are expected to be activated. How many games would Herbert had to produce in for his activation to be expected/required? 2 games? 4 games? And at what level of production would he have had to sustain? In short - at what point did this become “tanking”? Nobody expected Herbert to be this good or continue to be this good. If Jalen Hurts is on a taxi squad and he finishes the season strong would he be required or expected to be activated immediately?

IMO no. This wasn’t tanking. This is people’s expectations not being met. Clarify your expectations. Express your expectations. Work to find viable solutions to actual problems. But at the end of the day the world doesn’t revolve around our own expectations of other peoples decisions.

[FiremanEd]

Why have taxi squad if this is a concern? This is legitimately one of the considerations of a taxi squad vs just expanding the active rosters. It’s not the players fault, it’s the Commish’s fault for not knowing what he was implementing, the other players for not being aware, and everyone for not touching on it before draft order was being finalized.

This is absolutely fair given what taxi squad is and cannot change in season. If people don’t like that’s the way it is setup, then change for the future. Or add Taxi Poaching (allow people to steal taxi players off other teams taxi squad for set draft pick compensation, such as round drafted + X). If someone thinks a guy is worth it then they can take the player themselves and the taxi squad isn’t without risk any longer. Saying it is ‘fair for developmental rookies’ is a silly thing to say...as that’s a subjective statement that cannot be enforced. If you don’t have poaching or want the points to count towards Potential Points / Bench Points, you can expand rosters and do the same ‘hold for development’ thing desired. No difference other than how you view your roster on the Rosters pages.

I’m in 4 leagues (12/28/30/32 team leagues) and the taxi squad strategy is one available in all of them, while two have poaching available to keep people in check on value rises and immediate production.

[killer_of_giants]

So it seems like the question that we should center our opinions around is “what is the purpose/function of a taxi squad?”

yeah i'd like to know. never got it, just add extra roster spots.
are players on taxi poachable by other teams for picks? that way i see how it could be fun.

[ThunderTung]

Why is this turning into an argument about taxi squads? Its really a matter of whether tanking is allowed in this league. Based on using potential points for standings, I would assume not.

So you need to seal your taxi rules up a bit. the size is not the issue. Its really just a matter of integrity.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but I use 10 man taxi's and have never had an issue like this. But we also strictly forbid tanking, and have measures against it (punishment, rules, etc.) including a last place monetary charge. For new owners I usually give them a few heads up when things come up, but everyone else is on the same page and all Is well and good.

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't do anything about this season. He followed the rules. But I would have a conversation with your league in the offseason about why things like this shouldnt happen, and enact any measures that you think would remedy the situation.

Some things we do: loser bracket for the top 4 draft picks, once your promote a player, you can't demote them again for another 6 weeks, if found tanking, loss of draft picks could happen (admittedly harsh, but I haven't had to do that)

Unless of course your league is fine with tanking, then just leave it alone because that's exactly what he's doing

Its becoming a conversation about taxi squads because in this scenario the nature of the taxi squad provided the manager with an acceptable choice. “Tanking” conversations are all a matter of control and perceived effort. By requiring someone to play a certain way you strip them of choices that were naturally provided. I think many look at “tanking” as a lack of effort, but if you really think about this scenario, the owner actually takes considerable effort in using this strategy. It may not be the effort people LIKE. But that doesn’t make it WRONG.

The reason why it would be silly to consider this “tanking” is because there are no guidelines that would clearly define when players are expected to be activated. How many games would Herbert had to produce in for his activation to be expected/required? 2 games? 4 games? And at what level of production would he have had to sustain? In short - at what point did this become “tanking”? Nobody expected Herbert to be this good or continue to be this good. If Jalen Hurts is on a taxi squad and he finishes the season strong would he be required or expected to be activated immediately?

IMO no. This wasn’t tanking. This is people’s expectations not being met. Clarify your expectations. Express your expectations. Work to find viable solutions to actual problems. But at the end of the day the world doesn’t revolve around our own expectations of other peoples decisions.

Yea im not necessarily arguing that the owner is in the wrong, like I said, he followed the rules. But to act like this isn't tanking is just being willfully ignorant lol. He's not playing 4th string WR and s/t players because he thinks they give him a better shot than the rookies he drafted. He's doing it because he wants a higher draft pick. You can make the argument that tanking is just a strategy, and that's fine. If you and your leagues agree on that, then tank away. I personally just don't like what tanking does for a league. Eventually you'll have a bunch of people playing fantasy football for a better draft spot, rather than championships.

Regardless, OP's league obviously has an issue with the way this owner went about tanking, so we should be helping him address the specific issue his league has, not argue about whether or not tanking is "right" or the point of taxi squads

[remedy29]

The OP league did not have an issue with teams trading future 1st round draft picks for his talented players, taking his money for 2019 and helping themselves win in 2019 with his players. So they were clearly in favor and supportive of his tanking last year. They now have an issue that he turned those picks into what looks to be valuable good players and he has them on his taxi squad, not his active roster, which is allowable per league rules.

Is trading James Robinson for Kittle tanking? Is trading any quality player for future draft picks tanking? It clearly is tanking the current season for value in future years. Is it allowable? Absolutely, why wouldn't it be? This is dynasty, players simply have values, so in that viewpoint, trading current value for future value is strategy, not tanking.

Having rookies on taxi squad is also strategy. It can be viewed as roster management. Depending on the league. My league keeps 15, active roster is 20, with 3 taxi. The taxi is a means of keeping more than 15 players until the player is needed for active roster to help the team win, not a single game, but win and make the playoffs. Now, OP situation is an extreme case, that is why I say it looks to be too many taxi squad spots.

You can not have taxi squad spots and then say, well this player should be on the active roster. Once you add "should" your argument fails. You need to have rules and play within those rules.

[Sriracha]

You’d be hard pressed to find a league that has issue with people selling Vets for future draft capital.

I agree with Huskers. Trying to spin this as anything other than Tanking is simply willful ignorance.

Like I said... the owner isnt in the wrong because this wasnt explicitly stated... but to act as if this isn’t tanking is taking some mental gymnastics. At no point can someone be starting Josh Reynolds over a season long RB2 (like Swift) after multiple breakout games and it not be some form of tanking.

If you are ok with Tanking, and so are your leaguemates thats another issue entirely

[ThunderTung]

The OP league did not have an issue with teams trading future 1st round draft picks for his talented players, taking his money for 2019 and helping themselves win in 2019 with his players. So they were clearly in favor and supportive of his tanking last year. They now have an issue that he turned those picks into what looks to be valuable good players and he has them on his taxi squad, not his active roster, which is allowable per league rules.

Is trading James Robinson for Kittle tanking? Is trading any quality player for future draft picks tanking? It clearly is tanking the current season for value in future years. Is it allowable? Absolutely, why wouldn't it be? This is dynasty, players simply have values, so in that viewpoint, trading current value for future value is strategy, not tanking.

Having rookies on taxi squad is also strategy. It can be viewed as roster management. Depending on the league. My league keeps 15, active roster is 20, with 3 taxi. The taxi is a means of keeping more than 15 players until the player is needed for active roster to help the team win, not a single game, but win and make the playoffs. Now, OP situation is an extreme case, that is why I say it looks to be too many taxi squad spots.

You can not have taxi squad spots and then say, well this player should be on the active roster. Once you add "should" your argument fails. You need to have rules and play within those rules.

probably because trading away players for future picks isn't tanking, you could argue it is by definition. But I think its clear the only tanking that negatively affects leagues is when a team is willfully not playing more talented players to get a better draft pick. If your team sucks, you deserve a high draft pick. But if your team is middle of the pack, not playing your studs so you get a better pick affects the entire league negatively. The whole point is the worse team gets the highest pick, if you don't implement things to make sure that happens, then you'll have teams who may have been on the cusp of a playoff birth picking in the top 3.

I think too many people think that every single rule needs to be ironclad and written down. There should be an understanding and trust between league mates and your commish about what is right or wrong in each individual league. And maybe this league needs to have that discussion.

Maybe I've just gotten lucky that my league trusts me enough to rule things like this at my discretion, but im also fair and make sure everyone is aware on where the league stands. Theres a line between integrity and written rules, and I think this owner crossed it personally. But if that line hasn't been established, then he deserves no punishment. But that conversation definitely needs to happen.

[M-Dub]

There are a lot of layers to this discussion, but it seems like a lot of owners don’t really understand how taxi squads work.

1. Taxi players should not be counted towards PP, because they can’t be started. The whole concept of PP is based on how many points you would’ve scored had you started your optimal lineup from your active roster. Taxi players are clearly not on your active roster, thus there’s no way you could possibly start them, thus their points should not count towards PP.

2. If you’re going to have taxi squads, you need to have clearly defined rules for who is eligible and for how long. This idea that a commish or some butthurt leaguemates can arbitrarily decide when another owner’s players should be promoted is absurd. The ONLY person who gets to decide when a player is promoted from his taxi squad is the owner of that player, unless there are clearly defined rules that dictate such a promotion. Any such rule is probably going to be based on a player’s experience rather than his production, since it’d be next to impossible to define a clear set of performance-based criteria that would mandate a promotion, not to mention the huge hassle it would be to police/enforce.

3. Keeping good players on your taxi squad is NOT tanking. It’s just a strategic way to speed up a rebuild. Tanking involves benching clearly superior players for clearly inferior players. The players on a TS aren’t being “benched.” They’re simply not available to start at all.

If you disagree with any of the above, that’s perfectly fine, but taxi squads clearly aren’t for you. If you feel that taxi squads create too much of a gray area, just don’t use them, because that’s kind of the whole point of taxi squads. They’re a “gray area” pretty much by definition. One man’s developmental stash is another man’s “must start.”

There are a lot of rules you could put in place to lessen the likelihood of something like this happening: poaching, not allowing 1st round picks on TS, limiting the number of years a player can remain on TS, limiting the number of times a player can be demoted, etc. What you can’t do is try to implement some sort of “I know it when I see it” rule that would force owners to promote TS players based on the whims of other owners.

[Sriracha]

There are a lot of layers to this discussion, but it seems like a lot of owners don’t really understand how taxi squads work.

1. Taxi players should not be counted towards PP, because they can’t be started. The whole concept of PP is based on how many points you would’ve scored had you started your optimal lineup from your active roster. Taxi players are clearly not on your active roster, thus there’s no way you could possibly start them, thus their points should not count towards PP.

2. If you’re going to have taxi squads, you need to have clearly defined rules for who is eligible and for how long. This idea that a commish or some butthurt leaguemates can arbitrarily decide when another owner’s players should be promoted is absurd. The ONLY person who gets to decide when a player is promoted from his taxi squad is the owner of that player, unless there are clearly defined rules that dictate such a promotion. Any such rule is probably going to be based on a player’s experience rather than his production, since it’d be next to impossible to define a clear set of performance-based criteria that would mandate a promotion, not to mention the huge hassle it would be to police/enforce.

3. Keeping good players on your taxi squad is NOT tanking. It’s just a strategic way to speed up a rebuild. Tanking involves benching clearly superior players for clearly inferior players. The players on a TS aren’t being “benched.” They’re simply not available to start at all.

If you disagree with any of the above, that’s perfectly fine, but taxi squads clearly aren’t for you. If you feel that taxi squads create too much of a gray area, just don’t use them, because that’s kind of the whole point of taxi squads. They’re a “gray area” pretty much by definition. One man’s developmental stash is another man’s “must start.”

The mental gymnastics here are quite extraordinary. There is no scenario you'd start a 4th string WR over a healthy D'andre Swift unless you were trying to lose. Use your common sense.

1. They can be started; by elevating them to your active roster making your entire counterargument pointless.

There is no scenario where someone would be starting a 4th string WR over D'andre Swift if you were trying to win. You specifically don't elevate a talent like Swift because you're not trying to win because you are incentivized to lose in this scenario. That's the definition of tanking. Now.. if you're ok with that, no problem. But don't try to piss on your leaguemates and call it rain.