Playoff Seeding Question

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Kaz
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Playoff Seeding Question

Postby Kaz » Wed Dec 09, 2020 3:31 am

So, I have an interesting situation in the league I commish due to some wording in the bylaws, and I wanted to get public opinion on this since it involves a benefit for my team. As it stands, our league is split into 2 conferences with 4 divisions and 4 teams each. The top 3 teams within each conference advance to the playoffs with the best record getting a first round bye. Our current ruling for who gets the bye is as follows: "A first round playoff bye will be awarded to the team with the best Win/Loss record for each Conference. If there should be a tie in any case with Win/Loss record, Head to Head record will be used to determine who receives the slot. If Head to Head record cannot be used, Intra-Division record will be the next determining factor for the slot. If the teams are not all of the same division, Total Points will be the final deciding factor."

As it stands, there are 3 teams in the conference sitting at 9-4, including myself. I finished second in my division due to losing H2H matches with Team A. Team A lost to Team B (from another division in H2H). I defeated Team B in H2H, so it's quite a mess. If it goes to total points, then I get the bye, despite not winning my division under the current rules. However, I wanted to get feedback before making this, because it could understandably look bad since I'm the LM. Regardless, I think a new rule should be put in for next year that the bye winner must be a division winner.
QB: Brees, Ryan
RB: J.Taylor, K.Hunt, R.Jones, Dillon, McKinnon
WR: D.Adams, T.Hill, A.Rob, Lockett, Anderson, P.Campbell, C.Samuel
TE: Kittle, Olsen, D.Sample
DL: Ngakoue, E.Griffen, J.Sweat, Bowser
LB: Mosley, D.Jones, Warner, Treviathan, R. Evans, Okereke, M.Harrison
DB: J.Johnson, T.Mathieu, T.Walker, J.Jones, X.Woods

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Pac_Eddy
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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby Pac_Eddy » Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:47 am

For your situation, the top seed is between team A and Team B, since you didn't win your division. Team B (who I assume won his division) beat Team A in H2H, who finished ahead of you in your own division. So Team B is the top seed, followed by team A, followed by your team.

I know you didn't specify that winning the division means anything at all, but that's the assumption from me. If that's not the case, then it goes to total points, which means you are the top seed.
Not all that counts can be counted. Not all that can be counted counts.

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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby jenkins.math » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:04 am

Agree with the above. Bylaws are there for a reason but common sense should prevail here, especially if you know you want to add that the 1 seed must be a division winner.
Team 1: 14 team dynasty, 25 man roster, keep 14
QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 2Flex, D/ST, K, DL, LB, DE
QB: Ryan, Mayfield
RB: Barkley, CEH, Kelley, Ahmed, Snell
WR: OBJ, Evans, Juju, Moore, Jeudy, Reagor, Corey Davis, Cooks
TE: Kittle, L. Thomas
K: Butker
D/ST: Browns, Bears
DL: Buckner
LB: Kendricks
DB: B. Baker

Team 2: 12 team PPR Salary Cap
QB: Watson, Goff
RB: Barkley, CEH, Gibson, Howard, Perine, Lewis, Ozigbo
WR: Hill, Allen, Boyd, Landry, Sims, DJax, Hamler, Westbrook
TE: Schultz, Ebron, Thomas, Keene, Jarwin
K: Tucker
D/ST: Steelers, Bills
Taxi: Lock, Bryce Love, Higgins

Team 3: 12 team SF
QB: Wentz, Mayfield, Love
RB: AP, Lewis, Perine, JJ Taylor, Vaughn, Mack
WR: Jeudy, Jeffrey, P Williams, Mooney, Cephus, Fitz, Gandy-Golden, Hightower, Swain, Bisi Johnson, Tate
TE: Doyle, Smith, Trautman, Keene, Warring

abloom
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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby abloom » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:06 am

A first round playoff bye will be awarded to the team with the best Win/Loss record for each Conference. If there should be a tie in any case with Win/Loss record, Head to Head record will be used to determine who receives the slot. If Head to Head record cannot be used, Intra-Division record will be the next determining factor for the slot. If the teams are not all of the same division, Total Points will be the final deciding factor.
So hierarchy:
(1) Win/Loss
(2) H2H
(3) Intra-Division record
(4) Total points

So your situation:
(1) Win/Loss: All teams tie, go onto next option
(2) H2H: H2H impossible since A>B, B>C, C>A, go onto next option
(3) Intra-division record: Impossible, not all teams are in the same division, go onto next option
(4) total points for: Team with most points for gets the bye (you in this case).

If it goes to total points, then I get the bye, despite not winning my division under the current rules.
So, while it may be unintentional, your rules have 2 steps to assign playoff seeding:
(1) determine all eligible teams
(2) assign playoff seeds

Most of the time it will simply look as a single step, but in this very specific instance it is not. Now while that may be unintentional it is currently the rules of your league and something that can be addressed in the next off-season as you propose. There is another option which is that instead of using H2H for the 1st tie breaker, you use total points instead.
Dynasty Team #1:
12 team, 1 ppr (1.5 te), 1Q,2R,2W,1T,2F,1D,1K

Q: Wentz,Tannehill,Hill
R: CMC,Taylor,Robinson,Fournette
W: Evans,Edelman,Cobb,Davis,Mooney,Lazard
T: Goedert(IR),Henry
D: NE,BAL
K: Bullock

2021 Picks: 1.02,2.05,4.02,5.02,6.02,7.02
---
Dynasty Team #2: 2020 Champion
12 team, 1ppr (1.5 te), 1Q,2R,2W,1T,1SF,1F,1D,1K

Q: Wilson, Murray, Cousins, Trubisky, Smith, Dalton
R: Cook, Dobbins, Swift, Monty, Mattison
W: Nuk, Godwin, Metcalf, K Allen, Sutton
T: Kelce
K: Tucker
D: PIT

2021 picks: 1.05,1.12,4.06,4.12,5.12,6.12,7.07
---
DLF advice forum league:
14 team, SF, 1PPR (2PPR for TE), 1Q,2R,3W,1T,1SF,2F

Q: Mahomes ,Tua, Mullens, Love, Flacco, Hoyer, Rypien, Bethard
R: Michel, Moss, Hyde, Bernard, Richard, Darrel Williams, Damien Williams, C Thompson
W: Juju, Cooper, Allen, Sanders, D Moore
T: Schultz, Doyle, Asiasi, Thomas

2021 Picks: 1.04,1.11,1.12,2.04,3.04,4.04,4.06,4.10

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Jigga94
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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby Jigga94 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:06 am

This is why I don't like using H2H to determine playoff seeding. If I have this correct, you and the 2 other teams are all 1-1 against each other H2H and in the rules it is just referring to conference (divisions are pretty meaningless in this league). Imo it doesn't matter if you and one of the teams is same division for H2H because it doesn't explicitly say anything about divisions there. In that case, you'd move to the next rule, which can't be used either based on the time itself. Then you're at total points which is my personal favorite #1 tie-brraker because it eliminates the paragraph above.

I also think you should have each division winner make the playoffs and then 1 wild card each conference. You could leave the tiebreaker for H2H and then points for the division winners/bye week seeding if you want, but total points will be a lot easier
2QB, 2RB, 3WR, TE, FLEX - PPR - [b]14 Keepers[/b]
QB: Mahomes, J. Allen, Baker, D. Jones, Eason
RB: JT, Dillon, Gaskin, Mostert, Gus, Mattison, McFarland, Snell, Wilson, McKissic, Darrel
WR: Tyreek, DJM, Jeudy, Hollywood, Cooks, Mims, Hardman, Preston, Parris
TE: Andrews, Fant, Henry
2021: 1.10, 2, 3, 4, 5.08, 5.10, 6, 7, 9, 10

2QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 3FLEX - PPR - [b]20 Keepers[/b]
QB: [b]Mahomes, Ryan,[/b] Minshew, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: [b]Saquon, Dobbins, Jacobs, Hunt,[/b] Penny, Snell
WR: [b]AJB, DJM, Chark, Ruggs, Hardman, Mike Will, C. Davis, C. Samuel,[/b] G. Davis, Mooney, Lazard, J. Washington
TE: [b]Andrews, Henry, Gesicki, Tonyan,[/b] Irv
2021: 1.03, 2.05, 2.09, 3.05, 3.09
2022: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3

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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby Jigga94 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:08 am

abloom wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:06 am
A first round playoff bye will be awarded to the team with the best Win/Loss record for each Conference. If there should be a tie in any case with Win/Loss record, Head to Head record will be used to determine who receives the slot. If Head to Head record cannot be used, Intra-Division record will be the next determining factor for the slot. If the teams are not all of the same division, Total Points will be the final deciding factor.
So hierarchy:
(1) Win/Loss
(2) H2H
(3) Intra-Division record
(4) Total points

So your situation:
(1) Win/Loss: All teams tie, go onto next option
(2) H2H: H2H impossible since A>B, B>C, C>A, go onto next option
(3) Intra-division record: Impossible, not all teams are in the same division, go onto next option
(4) total points for: Team with most points for gets the bye (you in this case).

If it goes to total points, then I get the bye, despite not winning my division under the current rules.
So, while it may be unintentional, your rules have 2 steps to assign playoff seeding:
(1) determine all eligible teams
(2) assign playoff seeds

Most of the time it will simply look as a single step, but in this very specific instance it is not. Now while that may be unintentional it is currently the rules of your league and something that can be addressed in the next off-season as you propose. There is another option which is that instead of using H2H for the 1st tie breaker, you use total points instead.
This is explained nicely
2QB, 2RB, 3WR, TE, FLEX - PPR - [b]14 Keepers[/b]
QB: Mahomes, J. Allen, Baker, D. Jones, Eason
RB: JT, Dillon, Gaskin, Mostert, Gus, Mattison, McFarland, Snell, Wilson, McKissic, Darrel
WR: Tyreek, DJM, Jeudy, Hollywood, Cooks, Mims, Hardman, Preston, Parris
TE: Andrews, Fant, Henry
2021: 1.10, 2, 3, 4, 5.08, 5.10, 6, 7, 9, 10

2QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 3FLEX - PPR - [b]20 Keepers[/b]
QB: [b]Mahomes, Ryan,[/b] Minshew, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: [b]Saquon, Dobbins, Jacobs, Hunt,[/b] Penny, Snell
WR: [b]AJB, DJM, Chark, Ruggs, Hardman, Mike Will, C. Davis, C. Samuel,[/b] G. Davis, Mooney, Lazard, J. Washington
TE: [b]Andrews, Henry, Gesicki, Tonyan,[/b] Irv
2021: 1.03, 2.05, 2.09, 3.05, 3.09
2022: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3

remedy29
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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby remedy29 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:16 am

These rules are terrible.

Why are there 4 divisions? 1 division winner does not get a playoff spot, automatically? In your case 2 are not getting a playoff spot?

How are the schedules set up in this league?
Prescott, Tua
Chubb, Carson, D. Harris, Lindsay
C Lamb, C. Kupp, Chase Claypool, Robby Anderson, Ruggs, P. Campbell, Preston Wilson
Kittle, Ebron, Harrison Bryant, Trautman

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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby remedy29 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:31 am

I actually read your league rules, I believe. Question, are there 16 teams in each conference or 8? I believe it is 8 with each conference having 2 divisions, 2 Divisions winners and one wild card. If this is the case, then first tie breaker needs to go into determining Division Winners. You already lost this tie breaker to Team A. Next, top seed tie breaker needs to be determined amongst the 3 teams in this conference. Since you lost the first tie breaker to Team A, top seed is between Team A and Team B. Team B should be top seed.
Prescott, Tua
Chubb, Carson, D. Harris, Lindsay
C Lamb, C. Kupp, Chase Claypool, Robby Anderson, Ruggs, P. Campbell, Preston Wilson
Kittle, Ebron, Harrison Bryant, Trautman

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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby Jigga94 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:11 am

remedy29 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:31 am
first tie breaker needs to go into determining Division Winners.
You can't just add that to the rules before the playoffs start lol I agree that the division winner should mean something (or else why have divisions at all?) But you can't just change the rules for this year.
2QB, 2RB, 3WR, TE, FLEX - PPR - [b]14 Keepers[/b]
QB: Mahomes, J. Allen, Baker, D. Jones, Eason
RB: JT, Dillon, Gaskin, Mostert, Gus, Mattison, McFarland, Snell, Wilson, McKissic, Darrel
WR: Tyreek, DJM, Jeudy, Hollywood, Cooks, Mims, Hardman, Preston, Parris
TE: Andrews, Fant, Henry
2021: 1.10, 2, 3, 4, 5.08, 5.10, 6, 7, 9, 10

2QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 3FLEX - PPR - [b]20 Keepers[/b]
QB: [b]Mahomes, Ryan,[/b] Minshew, Trubisky, Mariota
RB: [b]Saquon, Dobbins, Jacobs, Hunt,[/b] Penny, Snell
WR: [b]AJB, DJM, Chark, Ruggs, Hardman, Mike Will, C. Davis, C. Samuel,[/b] G. Davis, Mooney, Lazard, J. Washington
TE: [b]Andrews, Henry, Gesicki, Tonyan,[/b] Irv
2021: 1.03, 2.05, 2.09, 3.05, 3.09
2022: 1, 1, 2, 3, 3

remedy29
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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby remedy29 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:27 am

Jigga94 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:11 am
remedy29 wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 7:31 am
first tie breaker needs to go into determining Division Winners.
You can't just add that to the rules before the playoffs start lol I agree that the division winner should mean something (or else why have divisions at all?) But you can't just change the rules for this year.
But that is standard, and implied. The rules are poorly written, however, it does not say that the 3 playoff teams top seed determination is solely most points. There are a list of tie breakers within multiple divisions. In the NFL for instance, to determine a tie, tie's within the Division are done first. The teams play separate schedules, the Division is there to determine seeding within the teams in that Division.

Another way to look at it is Win/Loss record. Just because the 3 teams have the same wins and losses, it doesn't mean they are all equal. Team A has a better Win/Loss record combined with the tiebreaking rules, than the OP, lets say Team C. How can Team C then be the top seed of the Conference when it is not even the top seed in the Division?

I am sure Team B is not happy.
Prescott, Tua
Chubb, Carson, D. Harris, Lindsay
C Lamb, C. Kupp, Chase Claypool, Robby Anderson, Ruggs, P. Campbell, Preston Wilson
Kittle, Ebron, Harrison Bryant, Trautman

remedy29
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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby remedy29 » Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:42 am

Another way to look at it is there are a list of tie breakers using Head to Head as the tie breaker. One HAS to be done first. So it has to be one of these 3;

A vs C -- A Wins
A vs B -- B Wins Top seed

A vs B -- B wins
B vs C -- C wins Top seed

B vs C -- C wins
C vs A -- A wins Top seed

You must choose one of these paths, per the rules hierarchy of tie breakers.

I would argue that the rules are lacking definitive guidance on awarding tie breakers for the top seed. Since the rules are ambiguous, I would claim the writer of the rules is the last one that should benefit. The only logical means of picking the order of the tie breakers is first determining tie breakers within the Division.
Prescott, Tua
Chubb, Carson, D. Harris, Lindsay
C Lamb, C. Kupp, Chase Claypool, Robby Anderson, Ruggs, P. Campbell, Preston Wilson
Kittle, Ebron, Harrison Bryant, Trautman

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Re: Playoff Seeding Question

Postby Yarnith » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:40 pm

How do people have playoffs where division winners aren't awarded a playoff spot? According to what I read here 2 division winners didn't make the playoffs? Also the team that bumped a division winner out didn't even win his own division? Crazy. Since this is really rules lawyering for poorly done rules lets do that though. Overall tie 3 way h2h is a tie then you goto divisional. By the letter of your rules it doesn't matter that the teams are in different divisions WHOMEVER has the best record in their respective division gets it. That is literally how its written regardless how silly it seems.
12 team standard, 1QB, 1RB, 1WR, 2WR/TE, 1flex


QB: J. Allen, J. Goff, D. Haskins

RB: A. Kamara, J. Taylor, CE,H, Ty Johnson, B. Love, D. Guice, R. Calais, D. Washington

WR: A.J. Brown, C. Ridley, J. Smith-Schuster, A. Cooper, R. Woods, D. Slayton, P. Williams, H. Ruggs, D. Mims, T. Smith, KJ Hamler

TE: G. Kittle, H. Henry

2021 1.12 , 3.8, 3.12, 4.9, 4.12


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