Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby mgscott » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:01 pm


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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby mild » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:45 pm

mgscott wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:00 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:38 pm
mgscott wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:36 pm I agree. It is baffling as to why he makes so many moves to run a simple slant.
You're talking about it like he just needs to run in a slanted line after the ball hikes.

Image

Why won't Adams just run the damn route.
Adams isn't running a slant here. And he looks nothing like Jeudy in this clip.
Firstly that's a Sluggo route or similar variant, not a Slant.

Secondly, Jeudy - as a 21 year old Rookie - actually did a pretty darn good impression...

https://twitter.com/bradkelly17/status/ ... 74?lang=en

That's a perfect Sluggo, that head fake is going to get him paid one day. The man is good.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:33 am

mgscott wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:00 pm
Adams isn't running a slant here. And he looks nothing like Jeudy in this clip.
...yes, that much is clear. It's a slant and go. I'm showing you that there are different releases for every route at every alignment, against different coverages. Adams isn't running a 3-step slant route on the outside each time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu0FFSMYljc&t=52s

Again, different releases for the same route, depending on what the play, alignment, and coverage give you.

Evans looks like he's dancing, but he's doing exactly what he needs to do.

So, again how is it inefficient? Jeudy creates separation and the ball gets to him and there's no evidence that he's doubling on releases and movements and slowing plays down.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Bronco Billy » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:45 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:05 pm
Bronco Billy wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:52 am I agree with both sides a bit in this latest turn if events. I agree that it is questionable whether Lock can be a competent starter in the NFL and that he currently lacks accuracy, and I also agree that Jeudy at times gets so engaged in his movements to create separation that he can throw off the timing of plays. I can’t help but wonder if that isn’t part of the reason for his drops - which even he admits are a problem. If he gets so caught up in the movements that he uses to free himself that it affects how ready he is to catch the ball when it arrives?
It really doesn't look like Jeudy's routes are wasted movement. Someone asked for A22 of his routes and releases, and here's a thread of it:

https://twitter.com/Brickwallblitz/stat ... 8054464521

I'd need someone who really understands routes at the professional level to tell me if those are wasted movements. Because on multiple glances, it doesn't look like anything extra to create separation. Some of those releases are moves DaVante Adams does on the regular.

Currently, it would just be a hunch to blame that as the reason for some struggles last season. It's nothing we can measure statistically and eyeball wise, it's not standing out as anything different than what the leagues most talented route runners do.
Thanks for posting this. It’s limited but it does show the difference in where he’s wasting motion and where he’s not. Look at the second frame and then the last frame. There is a ton of useless steps and time wasted on the release in the second frame. He almost looks like one of those cartoons where the legs are going a mile per minute and the body is going nowhere. Compare that to the outstanding crisp release in the last frame where he sells his direction completely, then sticks his leg and takes off clean the other way. The first one is just a mess, where the second one is just textbook.

Great examples!

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am

Bronco Billy wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:45 am
Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:05 pm
Bronco Billy wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:52 am I agree with both sides a bit in this latest turn if events. I agree that it is questionable whether Lock can be a competent starter in the NFL and that he currently lacks accuracy, and I also agree that Jeudy at times gets so engaged in his movements to create separation that he can throw off the timing of plays. I can’t help but wonder if that isn’t part of the reason for his drops - which even he admits are a problem. If he gets so caught up in the movements that he uses to free himself that it affects how ready he is to catch the ball when it arrives?
It really doesn't look like Jeudy's routes are wasted movement. Someone asked for A22 of his routes and releases, and here's a thread of it:

https://twitter.com/Brickwallblitz/stat ... 8054464521

I'd need someone who really understands routes at the professional level to tell me if those are wasted movements. Because on multiple glances, it doesn't look like anything extra to create separation. Some of those releases are moves DaVante Adams does on the regular.

Currently, it would just be a hunch to blame that as the reason for some struggles last season. It's nothing we can measure statistically and eyeball wise, it's not standing out as anything different than what the leagues most talented route runners do.
Thanks for posting this. It’s limited but it does show the difference in where he’s wasting motion and where he’s not. Look at the second frame and then the last frame. There is a ton of useless steps and time wasted on the release in the second frame. He almost looks like one of those cartoons where the legs are going a mile per minute and the body is going nowhere. Compare that to the outstanding crisp release in the last frame where he sells his direction completely, then sticks his leg and takes off clean the other way. The first one is just a mess, where the second one is just textbook.

Great examples!
If we're talking about the second cutup in the slot against Tennessee and the last cutup on the outside against the Chargers, then it's apples and oranges. What makes the steps useless? He got the DB to bite and won the route. The play doesn't look like it was slowed down by anything, so this is likely by design.

A route that requires a longer release doesn't mean it's wasted movement.

I feel like we're discussing cosmetics. Jeudy runs good routes, gets good releases, has some nice head fakes, and more importantly gets open. You may not like how he looks doing that, but it's effective, and you would still need to go a longer way to show that he's slowing the play down somehow.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Bronco Billy » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:38 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:58 am
Bronco Billy wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:45 am
Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:05 pm

It really doesn't look like Jeudy's routes are wasted movement. Someone asked for A22 of his routes and releases, and here's a thread of it:

https://twitter.com/Brickwallblitz/stat ... 8054464521

I'd need someone who really understands routes at the professional level to tell me if those are wasted movements. Because on multiple glances, it doesn't look like anything extra to create separation. Some of those releases are moves DaVante Adams does on the regular.

Currently, it would just be a hunch to blame that as the reason for some struggles last season. It's nothing we can measure statistically and eyeball wise, it's not standing out as anything different than what the leagues most talented route runners do.
Thanks for posting this. It’s limited but it does show the difference in where he’s wasting motion and where he’s not. Look at the second frame and then the last frame. There is a ton of useless steps and time wasted on the release in the second frame. He almost looks like one of those cartoons where the legs are going a mile per minute and the body is going nowhere. Compare that to the outstanding crisp release in the last frame where he sells his direction completely, then sticks his leg and takes off clean the other way. The first one is just a mess, where the second one is just textbook.

Great examples!
If we're talking about the second cutup in the slot against Tennessee and the last cutup on the outside against the Chargers, then it's apples and oranges. What makes the steps useless? He got the DB to bite and won the route. The play doesn't look like it was slowed down by anything, so this is likely by design.

A route that requires a longer release doesn't mean it's wasted movement.

I feel like we're discussing cosmetics. Jeudy runs good routes, gets good releases, has some nice head fakes, and more importantly gets open. You may not like how he looks doing that, but it's effective, and you would still need to go a longer way to show that he's slowing the play down somehow.
And hence the point in not carrying the discussion further. You posted a perfect example of how he can waste motion and take longer to get into his route and then the response is that’s it’s effective and not slowing the play down. If that’s a hot route and Lock is faced with an unblocked rush from that side, he has to release while Jeudy is still shuffling his feet and has not gotten off the line. It makes a difference. Go into it and slow it down to frame by frame with your finger. It takes him 8 steps before he starts moving laterally across the line. it actually looks a bit comical in slo-mo. But if you feel that it’s pointless, then we’re at a point where trying to move forward on this is useless.

No one is saying Jeudy sucks or that he can’t play the game. He has attributes to be an outstanding WR. But he is not perfect, and it’s okay to acknowledge that.
Last edited by Bronco Billy on Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:41 am

Bronco Billy wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:38 am And hence the point in not carrying the discussion further. You posted a perfect example of how he can waste motion and take longer to get into his route and then the response is that’s it’s effective and not slowing the play down. If that’s a hot route and Lock is faced with an unblocked rush from that side, he has to release while Jeudy is still shuffling his feet and has not gotten off the line. It makes a difference. But if you feel that it’s pointless, then we’re at a point where trying to move forward on this is useless.

No one is saying Jeudy sucks or that he can’t play the game. He has attributes to be an outstanding WR. But he is not perfect, and it’s okay to acknowledge that.
To the underlined: How is that the fault of the WR? The WR can't anticipate that the offensive line is going to blow an assignment and then change his release and route. If that scenario plays out, then it's not the WR or QBs fault. However, the PFF article has Jeudy with the most graded incompletions in the league that were the QBs fault.

If a play requires a longer release, then why is it an issue? Players typically know what type of releases they need to have for each play, so they're not improvising. Whatever they're doing is what the play requires.

I'm all for objective discussion, but in all the years I've posted here, I've never heard someone criticized for slowing a play down with their releases. It's a new criticism for sure, which is fine if there's juice to it. So, you'd have more than just a hunch that what he's doing isn't what the play actually dictates.

And I don't get the last line. I never said Jeudy was perfect this season. I've acknowledged his issues. I'm just saying that QB play has been the biggest issue and the PFF article confirms what I've been seeing and what the data has also said.
Last edited by Cameron Giles on Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Bronco Billy » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:48 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:41 am
Bronco Billy wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:38 am And hence the point in not carrying the discussion further. You posted a perfect example of how he can waste motion and take longer to get into his route and then the response is that’s it’s effective and not slowing the play down. If that’s a hot route and Lock is faced with an unblocked rush from that side, he has to release while Jeudy is still shuffling his feet and has not gotten off the line. It makes a difference. But if you feel that it’s pointless, then we’re at a point where trying to move forward on this is useless.

No one is saying Jeudy sucks or that he can’t play the game. He has attributes to be an outstanding WR. But he is not perfect, and it’s okay to acknowledge that.
But again, if that's what's the play requires, then why is it an issue?

I'm all for objective discussion, but in all the years I've posted here, I've never heard someone criticized for slowing a play down with their releases. It's a new criticism for sure. So, you'd have more than just a hunch that what he's doing isn't what the play dictates.

And I don't get the last line. I never said Jeudy was perfect this season. I've acknowledged his issues. I'm just saying that QB play has been the biggest issue and the PFF article confirms what I've been seeing and what the data has also said.
This is what I just added that you missed:

“Go into it and slow it down to frame by frame with your finger. It takes him 8 steps before he starts moving laterally across the line. it actually looks a bit comical in slo-mo.”

Proper quick release off the line is a very common flaw with rookie WRs in the NFL. They’re used to playing college CBs and not the combination of strength, quickness, and experienced nuances that pro starting CBs have. Beating press coverage in the NFL is an art that needs to be learned and refined. Some guys never get it.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:54 am

Bronco Billy wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:48 am
Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:41 am
Bronco Billy wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:38 am And hence the point in not carrying the discussion further. You posted a perfect example of how he can waste motion and take longer to get into his route and then the response is that’s it’s effective and not slowing the play down. If that’s a hot route and Lock is faced with an unblocked rush from that side, he has to release while Jeudy is still shuffling his feet and has not gotten off the line. It makes a difference. But if you feel that it’s pointless, then we’re at a point where trying to move forward on this is useless.

No one is saying Jeudy sucks or that he can’t play the game. He has attributes to be an outstanding WR. But he is not perfect, and it’s okay to acknowledge that.
But again, if that's what's the play requires, then why is it an issue?

I'm all for objective discussion, but in all the years I've posted here, I've never heard someone criticized for slowing a play down with their releases. It's a new criticism for sure. So, you'd have more than just a hunch that what he's doing isn't what the play dictates.

And I don't get the last line. I never said Jeudy was perfect this season. I've acknowledged his issues. I'm just saying that QB play has been the biggest issue and the PFF article confirms what I've been seeing and what the data has also said.
This is what I just added that you missed:

“Go into it and slow it down to frame by frame with your finger. It takes him 8 steps before he starts moving laterally across the line. it actually looks a bit comical in slo-mo.”

Proper quick release off the line is a very common flaw with rookie WRs in the NFL. They’re used to playing college CBs and not the combination of strength, quickness, and experienced nuances that pro starting CBs have. Beating press coverage in the NFL is an art that needs to be learned and refined. Some guys never get it.
But again...if that particular play is supposed to be a longer release from the slot, then he's not off the expectation from that play. He won the route and there's no indication that play was late despite success.

You are correct that even the best rookies have to refine their route running at the next level against faster and more athletic coverage.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby mgscott » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:03 am

mild wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:45 pm
mgscott wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:00 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:38 pm

You're talking about it like he just needs to run in a slanted line after the ball hikes.

Image

Why won't Adams just run the damn route.
Adams isn't running a slant here. And he looks nothing like Jeudy in this clip.
Firstly that's a Sluggo route or similar variant, not a Slant.

Secondly, Jeudy - as a 21 year old Rookie - actually did a pretty darn good impression...

https://twitter.com/bradkelly17/status/ ... 74?lang=en

That's a perfect Sluggo, that head fake is going to get him paid one day. The man is good.
I'll agree. That was a great Sluggo. I think overall he's Ok/good. Just not my cup of tea for a good/great WR.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby mgscott » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:12 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:54 am
Bronco Billy wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:48 am
Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:41 am

But again, if that's what's the play requires, then why is it an issue?

I'm all for objective discussion, but in all the years I've posted here, I've never heard someone criticized for slowing a play down with their releases. It's a new criticism for sure. So, you'd have more than just a hunch that what he's doing isn't what the play dictates.

And I don't get the last line. I never said Jeudy was perfect this season. I've acknowledged his issues. I'm just saying that QB play has been the biggest issue and the PFF article confirms what I've been seeing and what the data has also said.
This is what I just added that you missed:

“Go into it and slow it down to frame by frame with your finger. It takes him 8 steps before he starts moving laterally across the line. it actually looks a bit comical in slo-mo.”

Proper quick release off the line is a very common flaw with rookie WRs in the NFL. They’re used to playing college CBs and not the combination of strength, quickness, and experienced nuances that pro starting CBs have. Beating press coverage in the NFL is an art that needs to be learned and refined. Some guys never get it.
But again...if that particular play is supposed to be a longer release from the slot, then he's not off the expectation from that play. He won the route and there's no indication that play was late despite success.

You are correct that even the best rookies have to refine their route running at the next level against faster and more athletic coverage.
There's also no evidence the play was supposed to take him so long to get open. None of us know and neither does PFF. So it's possible that all of the plays they determined the QB was at fault or off on his throw are correctly on the QB. But not likely. But it's also possible that some of those were the WR's fault by not getting open to their spot at the right time. No way of PFF really knowing who's fault it is on every play.

I think we all agree that Lock isn't great and a lot of the problems are on him. But some of us realize Jeudy has flaws and could be the blame for some of those that were blamed on the QB. SO maybe the "stats" provided by PFF aren't completely accurate.

It seems we're all talking in circles and no-one's going to change the other's mind. I admit Jeudy can run good routes and saw some on these clips that were great. I also saw some that I don't believe to be great routes or efficient. I'm no expert, that's just my opinion.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby skinfanjon » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:17 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:38 pm
mgscott wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:36 pm I agree. It is baffling as to why he makes so many moves to run a simple slant.
You're talking about it like he just needs to run in a slanted line after the ball hikes.

Image

Why won't Adams just run the damn route.
Thank you for posting a perfect example of running the bleeping route. Compact, Efficient, Flawless. Slayed him in half a sec.

I see the conversation has continued and don't feel the need to add anything else right now. Other than to clarify my position which is Jeudy is sometimes a fantastic route runner. He also sometimes gets way too preoccupied with his footwork and it contributes to poor timing and drops. Both things can be true. If he wants to be a top NFL receiver then he needs to stop being so extra and get more efficient. He has the ability for sure. The reason I don't really like him for dynasty is i think that flaw is part of who he is as a player and who he wants to be. He likes being extra. He thinks that's what makes him special when in actuality it's the thing holding him back.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Cameron Giles » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:40 am

mgscott wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:12 am There's also no evidence the play was supposed to take him so long to get open. None of us know and neither does PFF. So it's possible that all of the plays they determined the QB was at fault or off on his throw are correctly on the QB. But not likely. But it's also possible that some of those were the WR's fault by not getting open to their spot at the right time. No way of PFF really knowing who's fault it is on every play.

I think we all agree that Lock isn't great and a lot of the problems are on him. But some of us realize Jeudy has flaws and could be the blame for some of those that were blamed on the QB. SO maybe the "stats" provided by PFF aren't completely accurate.

It seems we're all talking in circles and no-one's going to change the other's mind. I admit Jeudy can run good routes and saw some on these clips that were great. I also saw some that I don't believe to be great routes or efficient. I'm no expert, that's just my opinion.
A lot of things are possible, but what proof do you have to validate possibilities?

Criticizing a player for slowing plays down with releases is a new criticism. You never see that here or on any dynasty forums. So, if someone is bringing that to the table, they surely should know how the play is supposed to run more than what we generally believe. You're entitled to an opinion, but where's the validation for it? How is that particular route supposed to be run against that coverage from the slot on that play? A 3-step release into a slant from the outside from another team doesn't add perspective to it. When you watch the broadcast version of that play, Lock isn't in a hurry and has a clean pocket when he delivers that pass to Jeudy.

So, what's to indicate that he slowed the play down? Just because it's a possibility?

Otherwise, we can pull up any play from any team and say that the WR didn't need to take that long to run the route.

There's a lot more pointing to PFF's conclusion than the hunches you guys are saying. I'd put some stock into it, if Lock is sitting in a clean pocket waiting for his primary read to get open and he's not, and then pressure comes and he rushes a throw....but that's not what happened on that play.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby mgscott » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:04 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:40 am
mgscott wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:12 am There's also no evidence the play was supposed to take him so long to get open. None of us know and neither does PFF. So it's possible that all of the plays they determined the QB was at fault or off on his throw are correctly on the QB. But not likely. But it's also possible that some of those were the WR's fault by not getting open to their spot at the right time. No way of PFF really knowing who's fault it is on every play.

I think we all agree that Lock isn't great and a lot of the problems are on him. But some of us realize Jeudy has flaws and could be the blame for some of those that were blamed on the QB. SO maybe the "stats" provided by PFF aren't completely accurate.

It seems we're all talking in circles and no-one's going to change the other's mind. I admit Jeudy can run good routes and saw some on these clips that were great. I also saw some that I don't believe to be great routes or efficient. I'm no expert, that's just my opinion.
A lot of things are possible, but what proof do you have to validate possibilities?

Criticizing a player for slowing plays down with releases is a new criticism. You never see that here or on any dynasty forums. So, if someone is bringing that to the table, they surely should know how the play is supposed to run more than what we generally believe. You're entitled to an opinion, but where's the validation for it? How is that particular route supposed to be run against that coverage from the slot on that play? A 3-step release into a slant from the outside from another team doesn't add perspective to it. When you watch the broadcast version of that play, Lock isn't in a hurry and has a clean pocket when he delivers that pass to Jeudy.

So, what's to indicate that he slowed the play down? Just because it's a possibility?

Otherwise, we can pull up any play from any team and say that the WR didn't need to take that long to run the route.

There's a lot more pointing to PFF's conclusion than the hunches you guys are saying. I'd put some stock into it, if Lock is sitting in a clean pocket waiting for his primary read to get open and he's not, and then pressure comes and he rushes a throw....but that's not what happened on that play.
All we are doing here is speculating, including what PFF is doing on that stat. What do you or PFF have to validate that all of those passes were inaccurate? Just the fact that the ball was incomplete and that Jeudy wasn't where the ball was? Unless PFF is getting direct info from the actual teams as to what the play was and how the route was supposed to be run, they are just guessing too. On your example above where Lock has a clean pocket and can wait for Jeudy to get open. Maybe the play was supposed to be delayed like that or maybe he fortunately had a clean pocket so he could wait for Jeudy to finally get open and throw the pass. We don't know. But if the pocket wasn't clean and he had pressure, he likely can't wait that long for Jeudy to do his 8 step dance to run the slant. We don't know.

I am certainly mocking him here some, but I find it curious why you don't seem able to even acknowledge the possibility that Jeudy may take too much time or excessive movements to run some routes. It all is apparently by design and he is the best route running WR of his class. I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

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Re: Jerry Jeudy Official Thread

Postby Bronco Billy » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:08 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:40 am
mgscott wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:12 am There's also no evidence the play was supposed to take him so long to get open. None of us know and neither does PFF. So it's possible that all of the plays they determined the QB was at fault or off on his throw are correctly on the QB. But not likely. But it's also possible that some of those were the WR's fault by not getting open to their spot at the right time. No way of PFF really knowing who's fault it is on every play.

I think we all agree that Lock isn't great and a lot of the problems are on him. But some of us realize Jeudy has flaws and could be the blame for some of those that were blamed on the QB. SO maybe the "stats" provided by PFF aren't completely accurate.

It seems we're all talking in circles and no-one's going to change the other's mind. I admit Jeudy can run good routes and saw some on these clips that were great. I also saw some that I don't believe to be great routes or efficient. I'm no expert, that's just my opinion.
A lot of things are possible, but what proof do you have to validate possibilities?

Criticizing a player for slowing plays down with releases is a new criticism. You never see that here or on any dynasty forums. So, if someone is bringing that to the table, they surely should know how the play is supposed to run more than what we generally believe. You're entitled to an opinion, but where's the validation for it? How is that particular route supposed to be run against that coverage from the slot on that play? A 3-step release into a slant from the outside from another team doesn't add perspective to it. When you watch the broadcast version of that play, Lock isn't in a hurry and has a clean pocket when he delivers that pass to Jeudy.

So, what's to indicate that he slowed the play down? Just because it's a possibility?

Otherwise, we can pull up any play from any team and say that the WR didn't need to take that long to run the route.

There's a lot more pointing to PFF's conclusion than the hunches you guys are saying. I'd put some stock into it, if Lock is sitting in a clean pocket waiting for his primary read to get open and he's not, and then pressure comes and he rushes a throw....but that's not what happened on that play.
So your position is that the DEN playbook calls for the receiver to take 8 choppy steps in place as part of a timing mechanism and then get into his route? Well, I guess it’s possible but it would be the first I’ve ever heard of something like this.

And with that, I’ll withdraw from the discussion.


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