Jonathan Taylor is your 1.01 now.

[nathanq42]

Just for the heck of it I decided to see how Taylor and CEH fared against common opponents.

______Games___ATT___YDS___YPC___REC____YDS___TD___Fantasy Pts.
Taylor__6_______89_____488____5.5_____14_______77_____7______112.5
CEH____6______101_____493____4.9_____16______136_____3_______96.9

Damn near identical other than TDs.

5.5 ypa vs 4.9 ypa is far from identical.

Okay, and 8.5 YPR vs 5.5 YPR is far from identical. I'ts actually further from identical (CEH's YPR is 54.5% better than JT's, but JT's YPA is only 32.7% better than CEH's

We can spin tires all day. At the end of the day both look to be solid backs, CEH's value is more heavily tied to his receiving work, JT's to his rushing work. At the end of the day JT has legit 2k potential, and CEH has 60+ reception potential. Both will be great it appears.

JT with 5.5 yards per touch, CEH with 5.1, they are quite close, JT only gets 7.8% more yardage than CEH per touch. Adjust that for CEH getting a larger mix of receptions than JT and not counting TD's (since they tend to be unpredictable) they are damn near identical.

But yeah, lets solely look at the efficiency stat that paints the picture you want.

[Ice]

Being beat out by older RB's in college isn't even an argument. That is commonplace due to age/maturity/muscle mass growth. It weakens the argument.

A reach in the NFL at this point is laughable given he plays hard, blocks well. and the team is in the SB. Thinking any other back would have gotten more play is a simple guess. CEH played a ton prior to injury. We in fantasy skew everything to points. Not how the NFL looks at things. A reach in fantasy could be correct but that won't be known for a year or two because that will be point dependent.

A lot goes into being a great RB in the pros and that starts with line and scheme. Taylor played in a scheme that was big on balance and running. The running game in KC seemed almost an afterthought. KC dealt with a lot of O line injuries. Many, including me believed CEH would be a bigger threat in the passing game. He may be next season when they are not missing two starters in the line weekly. If he isn't, then his high draft selection will be a mistake as he was drafted as a 3 down back in a pass driven offense.

The first stat I check for a RB is yards after contact. Over 2.0 is good under, not so much.

The difference is many are acting like CEH can't play.

[Bronco Billy]

Damn near identical other than TDs.

5.5 ypa vs 4.9 ypa is far from identical.

Okay, and 8.5 YPR vs 5.5 YPR is far from identical. I'ts actually further from identical (CEH's YPR is 54.5% better than JT's, but JT's YPA is only 32.7% better than CEH's

We can spin tires all day. At the end of the day both look to be solid backs, CEH's value is more heavily tied to his receiving work, JT's to his rushing work. At the end of the day JT has legit 2k potential, and CEH has 60+ reception potential. Both will be great it appears.

JT with 5.5 yards per touch, CEH with 5.1, they are quite close, JT only gets 7.8% more yardage than CEH per touch. Adjust that for CEH getting a larger mix of receptions than JT and not counting TD's (since they tend to be unpredictable) they are damn near identical.

But yeah, lets solely look at the efficiency stat that paints the picture you want.

You made a statement that wasn’t accurate. I’m sorry that pointing it out hit a sore spot.

So now you want to take the discussion to receiving but apparently only want to discuss raw stats. I’m guessing you’ll get defensive again when I point out that receiving passes from Mahomes in the KC offense is completely different and far more beneficial than receiving passes from Rivers, in his final season, in the IND offense.

If you are trying to make the argument that the two RBs are essentially equal based upon their production this year, my response would be that you need to put in a little more time watching both play.

[OhCruelestRanter]

Nah, CEH is fine. I compared him to Devonta Freeman pre-draft and I still love that comparison- and Freeman has a RB1 overall season! I didn’t draft him anywhere despite spending two years stockpiling for that class. Every pick that could have been Helaire I either took Taylor ahead of CEH or traded back and took Taylor. Now I’ll try to get some copies this off-season at a price reduction, provided they don’t draft somebody that I like or sign a good FA. So I’m not suggesting he can’t play, just that the pre-draft dialogue on his talent was bad and misguided.

It was just nuts seeing people ignore the things that historically matter for RBs, specifically production, size, and athleticism, to take the small-and-slow-but-shifty guy that helped them fulfill their football scout cosplay. These people don’t really believe that Andy Reid is infallible- that’s why they weren’t touting Hardman ahead of Metcalf. It was just lashing out against the people who don’t worship at the alter of jumpcuts.

[Sriracha]

Being beat out by older RB's in college isn't even an argument. That is commonplace due to age/maturity/muscle mass growth. It weakens the argument.

A reach in the NFL at this point is laughable given he plays hard, blocks well. and the team is in the SB. Thinking any other back would have gotten more play is a simple guess. CEH played a ton prior to injury. We in fantasy skew everything to points. Not how the NFL looks at things. A reach in fantasy could be correct but that won't be known for a year or two because that will be point dependent.

CEH can play. He belongs in the NFL. Is he a franchise RB? I'm leaning towards no, but time will tell.

Getting beaten out by older RBs wasn't the red flag. The fact that he got beaten out by UDFA Darrell Williams, and a guy who couldn't make an NFL roster in Nick Brossette was the concerning part... especially when he was being compared to Dobbins, Swift, JT, Akers -- all of whom earned a serious role for their teams as true freshman (and in the case of Swift in much fiercer competition) and were superior size/speed athletes.

A lot goes into being a great RB in the pros and that starts with line and scheme. Taylor played in a scheme that was big on balance and running. The running game in KC seemed almost an afterthought. KC dealt with a lot of O line injuries. Many, including me believed CEH would be a bigger threat in the passing game. He may be next season when they are not missing two starters in the line weekly. If he isn't, then his high draft selection will be a mistake as he was drafted as a 3 down back in a pass driven offense.

This isn't the first year KC's line has dealt with injuries; they weren't exactly the picture of health during Hunt's tenure there and Fisher played with a bad back injury diminishing his play when he was on the field. The line was graded out as a top 12 line via PFF which around where they typically finish. It's insane to me that people are using that as an excuse when CEH faces the lightest fronts in the NFL because every NFL defense is more concerned with Mahomes, Hill, and Kelce than they are whatever RB the Chiefs trot out there.

The question becomes.. why weren't these issues a concern before with this offense? Why are the Chiefs using their RBs at a lower rate than before? Is it driven by a sudden philosophical change to the offense or is it driven by the talent in the backfield not demanding touches? Why did the Chiefs look to add RB help during the season (Fournette, Bell)? What has CEH done to give people so much faith that the Chiefs are content with the RB position and won't add competition this off-season?

I understand why people want CEH to be a talent, especially if you invested in him at his ridiculous price point this off-season.. but the excuses made to defend him are what cause so much hate. He was given a phenomenal situation to produce fantasy points and he just did not deliver. There is a very real chance KC adds some legitimate competition for touches (in the draft, FA, or even the return of Damien Williams) this off-season and his value takes a steep dive this off-season... but his supporters are effectively sticking their head in the sand to brush off these concerns.

[nathanq42]

5.5 ypa vs 4.9 ypa is far from identical.

Okay, and 8.5 YPR vs 5.5 YPR is far from identical. I'ts actually further from identical (CEH's YPR is 54.5% better than JT's, but JT's YPA is only 32.7% better than CEH's

We can spin tires all day. At the end of the day both look to be solid backs, CEH's value is more heavily tied to his receiving work, JT's to his rushing work. At the end of the day JT has legit 2k potential, and CEH has 60+ reception potential. Both will be great it appears.

JT with 5.5 yards per touch, CEH with 5.1, they are quite close, JT only gets 7.8% more yardage than CEH per touch. Adjust that for CEH getting a larger mix of receptions than JT and not counting TD's (since they tend to be unpredictable) they are damn near identical.

But yeah, lets solely look at the efficiency stat that paints the picture you want.

You made a statement that wasn’t accurate. I’m sorry that pointing it out hit a sore spot.

So now you want to take the discussion to receiving but apparently only want to discuss raw stats. I’m guessing you’ll get defensive again when I point out that receiving passes from Mahomes in the KC offense is completely different and far more beneficial than receiving passes from Rivers, in his final season, in the IND offense.

If you are trying to make the argument that the two RBs are essentially equal based upon their production this year, my response would be that you need to put in a little more time watching both play.

Mate, my original point is that other than the TD differential, the two scored damn near the same amount of points vs the same opponents (CEH actually scored 8.4 more points to be exact), and to me, an 8.4 point difference, is pretty *close* to identical.

I dont understand you, the stats were given in totality, rushing and receiving, idk how Im bringing up something new to you by pointing out that CEH was more efficient catching passes. But we could go tit for tat all day about the subtle differences that have lead to minor statistical variances (catching passes from Mahomes is better than catching them from Rivers, running behind the IND Oline is better than running behind KC's Oline). The whole point of my reply to you is that *both have done very well this year* they have just performed better in different areas...

[jenkins.math]

I'm beginning to think CEH slept with a bunch of folks wives, girlfriends, and moms on here with the amount of disdain people have for the guy.

I honestly cannot recall a player ever being discussed in the way he has been. At this point the conversation is akin to a bunch of elementary school kids standing at the end of the trough seeing who can pee further.

He's a solid player, but again another example of why you don't launch players tremendously because of situation. We were only talking about him as the RB1 when Kansas City drafted him.

Granted, he probably hits 1000 with a healthy season and he was by no means a scrub, but it does not look like his situation is that much better than the other RBs behind him. Part of that is because KC does not want to run the ball, which takes the ball out of the hands of a potential all-time playmaker and passer. And frankly, they didn't seem to get CEH involved in the passing game a ton. Some of that is because Kelce and Hill are so freakishly good, and they don't check to the flat much in a largely vertical offense.

Once you break down why the situation disappointed, you're just looking at an alright RB talent. Again, not saying he's awful, but the talent isn't better than many backs in this class.

I still think he'll have better seasons than this, but he rarely matched the prices he was going for before the season.

The talent vs situation argument I think is much more relevant in discussing Swift's fall than CEH's rise. CEH being the first RB taken combined with what appeared to be a great situation is what vaulted him to the 1.01. Yet everyone only wants to play the talent over situation card here while completely ignoring his draft capital. The first RB taken in the NFL draft is more often than not the first RB taken in dynasty rookie drafts. I certainly can't recall a time where the first RB taken was the 4th RB or so in rookie drafts, yet the "see I told you so" crowd acts like that should have been the move.

The problem in discussing him is that facts have gone out the window. The only 2 rookie RBs to average more yards per game this year were Jonathan Taylor (who many still took at the 1.01 or was viewed at least as CEH's fantasy equal) and James Robinson (who nobody saw coming). That's it. Funny enough, CEH ending top 25 in the entire NFL in yards from scrimmage per game this season, yet people are ranking him as the 9th or 10th best rookie

I'm all for productive discussion, but my original point was that it's no longer productive and really hasn't been for weeks. He could win SB MVP and account for 300 yards and people would be in here screaming "Damien Williams should have won last year and he will be back, so doesn't matter".

[Dynasty DeLorean]

The Chiefs situational advantage is understated.. and people are even manufacturing crazy takes like "it's actually not that good of a situation" to defend CEH's talent level.

Yeah, I like CEH, I think he's fine, but that one kills me. Then there's the false narrative that the Chiefs took him as 1st rb off the board because they thought he was clearly the best talent, which is easily debunked as both Reid and Veach confirmed they asked Mahomes who he wanted and Mahomes said CEH;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chiefswire ... -pick/amp/

“Hey, listen we’re fired up for you, man,” Andy Reid began. “We asked Pat Mahomes, ‘Who do you want?’ And he picked you. How great is that?”

“… Coach and I were thinking your way,” Veach said. “Then when we texted Pat [Mahomes] and I said, ‘Give me a name and don’t think about it.’ And he said, ‘Clyde [Edwards-Helaire] and I said, ‘We’re good.'”

It stands to reason if Mahomes texted back JT, or Swift, or maybe even Dobbins or Akers, they would have drafted them instead.

[Sriracha]

The problem in discussing him is that facts have gone out the window. The only 2 rookie RBs to average more yards per game this year were Jonathan Taylor (who many still took at the 1.01 or was viewed at least as CEH's fantasy equal) and James Robinson (who nobody saw coming). That's it. Funny enough, CEH ending top 25 in the entire NFL in yards from scrimmage per game this season, yet people are ranking him as the 9th or 10th best rookie

I'm all for productive discussion, but my original point was that it's no longer productive and really hasn't been for weeks. He could win SB MVP and account for 300 yards and people would be in here screaming "Damien Williams should have won last year and he will be back, so doesn't matter".

Hard to have a productive discussion when you instantly dismiss the opposing side's arguments without addressing the issues

Restating your position doesn't make a counterpoint obsolete.

I can assure you that him going for 300 yards and winning Super Bowl MVP would go a long way towards mitigating my concerns about him.

[Bronco Billy]

The Chiefs situational advantage is understated.. and people are even manufacturing crazy takes like "it's actually not that good of a situation" to defend CEH's talent level.

Yeah, I like CEH, I think he's fine, but that one kills me. Then there's the false narrative that the Chiefs took him as 1st rb off the board because they thought he was clearly the best talent, which is easily debunked as both Reid and Veach confirmed they asked Mahomes who he wanted and Mahomes said CEH;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/chiefswire ... -pick/amp/

“Hey, listen we’re fired up for you, man,” Andy Reid began. “We asked Pat Mahomes, ‘Who do you want?’ And he picked you. How great is that?”

“… Coach and I were thinking your way,” Veach said. “Then when we texted Pat [Mahomes] and I said, ‘Give me a name and don’t think about it.’ And he said, ‘Clyde [Edwards-Helaire] and I said, ‘We’re good.'”

It stands to reason if Mahomes texted back JT, or Swift, or maybe even Dobbins or Akers, they would have drafted them instead.

Holy crap. Mahomes didn’t make the selection - he just agreed with Reid that CEH was his favorite RB/player remaining and coincidentally was the top RB on Reid’s board (who he compared to Westbrook).

It’s bat **** crazy to think Mahomes made that pick.

[OhCruelestRanter]

As high as I was on Taylor, man, it’s easy to imagine a world where the Chiefs draft Swift and he’s the real consensus 1.01.

Can you imagine what somebody with Swift’s talent could do in that KC offense?

[jenkins.math]

The problem in discussing him is that facts have gone out the window. The only 2 rookie RBs to average more yards per game this year were Jonathan Taylor (who many still took at the 1.01 or was viewed at least as CEH's fantasy equal) and James Robinson (who nobody saw coming). That's it. Funny enough, CEH ending top 25 in the entire NFL in yards from scrimmage per game this season, yet people are ranking him as the 9th or 10th best rookie

I'm all for productive discussion, but my original point was that it's no longer productive and really hasn't been for weeks. He could win SB MVP and account for 300 yards and people would be in here screaming "Damien Williams should have won last year and he will be back, so doesn't matter".

Hard to have a productive discussion when you instantly dismiss the opposing side's arguments without addressing the issues

Restating your position doesn't make a counterpoint obsolete.

I can assure you that him going for 300 yards and winning Super Bowl MVP would go a long way towards mitigating my concerns about him.

What hasn't been addressed or has been instantly dismissed?

The only thing that I can tell that was instantly dismissed was the first paragraph of my quote you seemingly erased

[Bronco Billy]

As high as I was on Taylor, man, it’s easy to imagine a world where the Chiefs draft Swift and he’s the real consensus 1.01.

Can you imagine what somebody with Swift’s talent could do in that KC offense?

Hell, imagine Taylor and his speed getting wider lanes with a deeper 2nd level and catching the ball in space with the D spread so far out. Either scenario is frightful.

[Ice]

Why are the Chiefs using their RBs at a lower rate than before? Is it driven by a sudden philosophical change to the offense or is it driven by the talent in the backfield not demanding touches? Why did the Chiefs look to add RB help during the season (Fournette, Bell)? What has CEH done to give people so much faith that the Chiefs are content with the RB position and won't add competition this off-season?

The answer to your question should be obvious given you seem to know something about football.

The Chief's have the best QB on the planet and all the rules favor the passing game. One look at the roster and one can easily see why they added Bell and Tampa added Fournette. Teams still need depth due to Covid and injury concerns more this year than ever. They were not expensive adds at all.

Bell certainly didn't beat out CEH. Fournette didn't beat put Jones but both were utilized. No telling how Taylor would have done had Mack not been injured but their other RB led the entire team in receptions.

Taylor will be a workhorse runner but it is very speculative if he ever turns out to be a serious receiving threat given how targets were trending when carries increased.

The real reality in the wide open NFL is that it continues to march toward passing and the era of 3 down backs may be going the way of the fullback. There won't be many left sooner than later.

[Sriracha]

Why are the Chiefs using their RBs at a lower rate than before? Is it driven by a sudden philosophical change to the offense or is it driven by the talent in the backfield not demanding touches? Why did the Chiefs look to add RB help during the season (Fournette, Bell)? What has CEH done to give people so much faith that the Chiefs are content with the RB position and won't add competition this off-season?

The answer to your question should be obvious given you seem to know something about football.

The Chief's have the best QB on the planet and all the rules favor the passing game. One look at the roster and one can easily see why they added Bell and Tampa added Fournette. Teams still need depth due to Covid and injury concerns more this year than ever. They were not expensive adds at all.

Depth is a fair point.. but re: Mahomes/NFL favoring the passing game... was all of this not true in 2018, as well? Or was Mahomes not good enough for this to apply when he threw for 5,100 yards and 50 TDs?