So...what is the point of trading?

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Mephistopheles
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So...what is the point of trading?

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:43 am

Someone on another thread made a statement that "trading is essential to dynasty". I disagree strongly with this statement, and rather than hijack that thread, thought I'd make another one to further discussion on this topic.

My opinion is that trading is decidedly an non-essential part of this game. What I've found, especially in the past couple of years, is that people only want to close trades when those trades are a decisive "win" for them and a decisive "lose" for the other party, in other words a "zero sum" game. Very few people seem to have the skill or willingness to put together and accept "win/win" deals that benefit both sides. My best trade partners are those who do not see trades as a zero sum process.

In addition, more people seem to find it acceptable to outright deceive trade partners as to how they value players or in the information they give in a trade. Many owners blur the lines between playing things "close to the vest" and unethical practices like "bait and switch" or outright deceiving people. Normally the markets filter out those types organically, but these owners just don't care about that any longer. Most owners however, end up turning the whole process of trade discussions into a completely unpleasant and argumentative experience.

For example, in one of my leagues, an owner on Tuesday listed E. Sanders on the block, stated he was looking for "a 3rd round pick". Wednesday I put together an offer of MVS and a mid to late 3rd for Sanders which met his requested price. He rejected it and countered asking for my (mid to late) 1st round pick. I rejected and did not counter. Led to an exchange that ended up with the other owner resorting to name calling and cursing me out for not furthering discussions with him after I called out his bait and switch scam.

Rather than dealing with these abusive responses and name calling when these guys don't get their way, I've changed to a process of building a significant number of my teams through the draft and free agency.
PSA - Haggling is NOT the same as negotiating.

abloom
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby abloom » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:51 am

Mephistopheles wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:43 am Someone on another thread made a statement that "trading is essential to dynasty". I disagree strongly with this statement, and rather than hijack that thread, thought I'd make another one to further discussion on this topic.

My opinion is that trading is decidedly an non-essential part of this game. What I've found, especially in the past couple of years, is that people only want to close trades when those trades are a decisive "win" for them and a decisive "lose" for the other party, in other words a "zero sum" game. Very few people seem to have the skill or willingness to put together and accept "win/win" deals that benefit both sides. My best trade partners are those who do not see trades as a zero sum process.
If the goal is just to "win" a trade, then there won't be trades unless each side wins. So how can this be accomplished? (1) trade different positions. (2) trade young for old or vice versa. (3) trade picks for players. Those three options allow for each side to win, as they can both improve their team. Obviously it will be next to impossible to make a trade completely even, but both trades can improve. Now if you try trading a vet RB for a vet RB, of course its gonna be hard to do, because its a lot easier to figure out who will win and lose that trade.
In addition, more people seem to find it acceptable to outright deceive trade partners as to how they value players or in the information they give in a trade. Many owners blur the lines between playing things "close to the vest" and unethical practices like "bait and switch" or outright deceiving people. Normally the markets filter out those types organically, but these owners just don't care about that any longer. Most owners however, end up turning the whole process of trade discussions into a completely unpleasant and argumentative experience.

For example, in one of my leagues, an owner on Tuesday listed E. Sanders on the block, stated he was looking for "a 3rd round pick". Wednesday I put together an offer of MVS and a mid to late 3rd for Sanders which met his requested price. He rejected it and countered asking for my (mid to late) 1st round pick. I rejected and did not counter. Led to an exchange that ended up with the other owner resorting to name calling and cursing me out for not furthering discussions with him after I called out his bait and switch scam.

Rather than dealing with these abusive responses and name calling when these guys don't get their way, I've changed to a process of building a significant number of my teams through the draft and free agency.
If they bait and switch so what? You offer a trade that you think is fair, if its rejected you move on, if its counter you talk some more. Bait and switch isn't unethical. Here's a hint on valuing players: I value my players more than yours.
Team #1: 2nd place
12 team, 1 ppr (1.5 te), 1Q,2R,2W,1T,2F,1D,1K

Q: Kyler, Fields, AR
R: JT, CMC, Barkley, chandler
W: Evans, Chase, Mooney, Collins, Dell, Pickens, wilson
T: Kelce, Goedert, Thomas, woods
D: cle, nyj
K: Sanders

Team #2: back to back champion
12 team, 1ppr (1.5 te), 1Q,2R,2W,1T,1SF,1F,1D,1K

Q: R Wilson, Murray, Watson, Browning, Rudolph, Zappe
R: Swift, Walker, Dobbins, gus bus
W: Puka, Metcalf, Dell, Cooper, DJM, K Allen, Nuk, Tre tucker, C Samuel,
T: Kelce, Pitts
K: Tucker
D: CLE

Team #3: back to back champion
14 team, SF, 1PPR (2PPR for TE), 1Q,2R,3W,1T,1SF,2F

Q: Mahomes, Rodgers, Watson, Heinicke, walker
R: Mostert, walker, a Jones, Wilson, Charb, Z White, McLaughlin, freeman, d Williams, Reynolds,
W: Waddle, A St Brown, K Allen, Cooper, Nuk, Juju
T: Kelce, Schultz, Thomas, Ferguson

Team #4 3rd
https://www49.myfantasyleague.com/2023/ ... =0004&O=01

Team #5 4th
https://www45.myfantasyleague.com/2023/ ... =0009&O=01

Mephistopheles
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:56 am

The bait and switch was on the pricing. He said specifically he would trade Sanders for a 3rd round pick. I offered a 3rd round pick plus and he came back asking for a 1st round pick.

Think of it this way...if Wal-Mart advertises the price of a product as $9.99 (for example), you take it to the register and they ring it up as $39.99, is that an ethical practice? Maybe some wouldn't call it bait and switch but certainly false advertisement. Either way, not a good practice.
PSA - Haggling is NOT the same as negotiating.

ColdZealDonkeyStrike
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby ColdZealDonkeyStrike » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:00 am

Trading isn't essential. Keeping your roster fresh and improving each roster spot when you can is essential to dynasty. Trading is just one way to do that.
However, I think trading is helpful for me in balancing out the areas of roster building where I'm not as strong. For example, I'm usually better at projecting RBs and getting guys early off the wire than my leaguemates, but I have learned I kinda suck at evaluating college WRs. So I often end up with a bunch of good RBs and end of bench stashes that improve in value, and not that great top end WRs. Trading helps to balance that out more then me continuing to blindly swing at WR in the draft would.
That, and contender to rebuilder trades are the main point of trading for me.
I've found that in leagues that have been around while, I have less problems with "win the deal" syndrome.
Dynasty player since 2002.
I probably should have done something more productive with that time...

hockeyBjj
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby hockeyBjj » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:00 am

1) I'm going to throw out the idea of making trades in an attempt to simply "win" them. Yes, we'd all love to bundle two veteran rb2s for a younger rb1. But if you play in a league with idiots like that, you don't really need advice here

2) The purpose of trading is to improve your team, even if flat out winning trades isn't possible

If you're a sadder team, you trade to give up production to acquire youth and future picks

If you're a contender, you sacrifice youth and picks for pieces to win now

If there's a guy you like you believe will break out more than consensous does, you trade a player/pick to acquire him

If you're gifted at RB and light at WR and QB, you trade to balance your team and help you win more weeks

If you're convinced trading is not necessary and you can just go through the motions making your rookie draft picks each year and no other changes, enjoy finishing 7th-4th each year and never getting the stars to align for a championship
Team 1- 10 team ppr, 1QB, 2RB, 3WR, 1TE, 2Flx, 1D, 1K
2022: 1-8
Finishes: 6th, 6th, 1st, 5th, 6th, 9th
QB: Lamar Jackson, Purdy
RB: Bijan, Dobbins, Achane, Charbonnet, Algier, McBride, waiver trash
WR: JSN, QJ, Addison, Dotson, Skyy Moore, Jameson Williams, Hyatt, T Dell, Boutte, Skowronek, Quez Watkins, Greg Dortch, waiver trash
TE: Hockenson, F Monroe, Juwan, Musgrave
D/K: Patriots, Vikings, Saints, Dicker

picks-
2024- 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,4,5,5
2025 1,1,1,2,3,4,5

team 2- 12 team SF, .5PPR, .5TE boost, 1QB, 1SF, 2 RB, 3WR, 1TE, 2Flex
2022: 8-1
Finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd :wall:
QB: Ljax, GenoD Jones, Minshew, Dobbs
RB: CMC, Stevenson, A Jones, Chubb, A Mattison, D cook, Perine, Mckinnon,
WR:Tyreek, Diggs, C Kupp, D Adams, Keenan Allen, Lockett, Gallup, A Lazard, Hodgins
TE: Kelce, LaPorta, Irv Smith,
No picks until 2026 5th rounder lol

ebsteelers
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby ebsteelers » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:08 am

I've seen plenty of high stake leagues that don't allow trading because of collision so for me personally its not essential, but I can also see why people enjoy doing it.

personally, for me the rookie draft is more important and essential (some people have no issue trading those picks away)

Cameron Giles
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby Cameron Giles » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:20 am

I agree with a lot of this, but I think it's important to add context to the idea of "winning trades." These deals aren't going to happen with two sides who are contenders. If I want Chris Godwin from a contender, then I can't expect that team to not want one of my top WRs or RBs. He has no incentive to make me better at his expense. It's a conflict of interest. Now, it's possible for these deals to happen, but they're tougher to make because both teams want to get better now while not making the other vastly better.

Typically the best deals are a clear seller vs. a clear buyer.

Mephistopheles
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:26 am

ebsteelers wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:08 am I've seen plenty of high stake leagues that don't allow trading because of collision so for me personally its not essential, but I can also see why people enjoy doing it.

personally, for me the rookie draft is more important and essential (some people have no issue trading those picks away)
100% agree. Trading should be enjoyable, not imperative. Owners like the guy I described suck all the enjoyment out of it.
I'm on the verge of winning my 3rd straight title with a team that was 95% built through the draft.
PSA - Haggling is NOT the same as negotiating.

joeya2001
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby joeya2001 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:42 am

Im in the boat where I trade all my picks away, id rather have a proven mid age guy than a rookie.

I don't really value Youth as much as I do as a 26-27 y/o I like the proven track record.

However, If I see a steal that keeps falling like Lamar Jackson, I sure as he** will do my part and steal him lol.

I still remind the league they are fools for letting him come to me mid second round in a super flex.
1 QB, 2 RB, 3 WR 1TE, Super Flex, 2 Flex Spots. 10 Team Dynasty PPR

2016 Champs 2019 Runner up 2020 Champs

QB- Lamar Jackson, Jordan Love
RB- Alvin Kamara, AJ Dillion
WR- Christian Kirk, Michael Pittman, Aiyuk, Alec Pierce, DJ Chare, Terrace Marshall, Metchie,
TE- George Kittle, Darren Waller, Greg Dortch.

Team 2 10 Team 1 QB 2 RB 3 WR 1 TE 2 Flex 2 SF

2020 3rd place Year 1
(This is a rebuild team selling vets)
QB Joe Burrow, Kenny Pickett, Geno,
RB AJ Dillon, Josh Jacobs, Tony Pollard,
WR Tee Higgins, Sutton, HollywoodTerry McLaurin, DJM, Ju-Ju, Hodgins,
TE Hock, Andrews, Kyle Pitts, Otton, Ertz
Picks
2023 4 1st 5 2nd
2024 3rd
“Not good enough to count on as a starter, but too good to drop, so they clog my bench.” dlf_mikeh

abloom
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby abloom » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:15 am

Mephistopheles wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:56 am The bait and switch was on the pricing. He said specifically he would trade Sanders for a 3rd round pick. I offered a 3rd round pick plus and he came back asking for a 1st round pick.

Think of it this way...if Wal-Mart advertises the price of a product as $9.99 (for example), you take it to the register and they ring it up as $39.99, is that an ethical practice? Maybe some wouldn't call it bait and switch but certainly false advertisement. Either way, not a good practice.
And the result is the same, stop going to Wal-Mart.
Team #1: 2nd place
12 team, 1 ppr (1.5 te), 1Q,2R,2W,1T,2F,1D,1K

Q: Kyler, Fields, AR
R: JT, CMC, Barkley, chandler
W: Evans, Chase, Mooney, Collins, Dell, Pickens, wilson
T: Kelce, Goedert, Thomas, woods
D: cle, nyj
K: Sanders

Team #2: back to back champion
12 team, 1ppr (1.5 te), 1Q,2R,2W,1T,1SF,1F,1D,1K

Q: R Wilson, Murray, Watson, Browning, Rudolph, Zappe
R: Swift, Walker, Dobbins, gus bus
W: Puka, Metcalf, Dell, Cooper, DJM, K Allen, Nuk, Tre tucker, C Samuel,
T: Kelce, Pitts
K: Tucker
D: CLE

Team #3: back to back champion
14 team, SF, 1PPR (2PPR for TE), 1Q,2R,3W,1T,1SF,2F

Q: Mahomes, Rodgers, Watson, Heinicke, walker
R: Mostert, walker, a Jones, Wilson, Charb, Z White, McLaughlin, freeman, d Williams, Reynolds,
W: Waddle, A St Brown, K Allen, Cooper, Nuk, Juju
T: Kelce, Schultz, Thomas, Ferguson

Team #4 3rd
https://www49.myfantasyleague.com/2023/ ... =0004&O=01

Team #5 4th
https://www45.myfantasyleague.com/2023/ ... =0009&O=01

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Goddard
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby Goddard » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:21 am

Teams who trade in my league are usually the ones competing. The teams who don't are always at the bottom. Also, if your team is bad, how else do you improve it unless you make some trades? Hitting on your 1st round pick for the next 4-5 years isn't really going to be the best strategy to try and improve your team.

Mephistopheles
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby Mephistopheles » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:25 am

abloom wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:15 am
Mephistopheles wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:56 am The bait and switch was on the pricing. He said specifically he would trade Sanders for a 3rd round pick. I offered a 3rd round pick plus and he came back asking for a 1st round pick.

Think of it this way...if Wal-Mart advertises the price of a product as $9.99 (for example), you take it to the register and they ring it up as $39.99, is that an ethical practice? Maybe some wouldn't call it bait and switch but certainly false advertisement. Either way, not a good practice.
And the result is the same, stop going to Wal-Mart.
Bingo. You get my point.
PSA - Haggling is NOT the same as negotiating.

hingle
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby hingle » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:32 am

Mephistopheles wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:25 am
abloom wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:15 am
Mephistopheles wrote: Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:56 am The bait and switch was on the pricing. He said specifically he would trade Sanders for a 3rd round pick. I offered a 3rd round pick plus and he came back asking for a 1st round pick.

Think of it this way...if Wal-Mart advertises the price of a product as $9.99 (for example), you take it to the register and they ring it up as $39.99, is that an ethical practice? Maybe some wouldn't call it bait and switch but certainly false advertisement. Either way, not a good practice.
And the result is the same, stop going to Wal-Mart.
Bingo. You get my point.
He didnt say stop shopping though, he just said stop going to the same spot. I have plenty of leagues where I dont bother sending out offers to certain owners because I know we arent going to come to an agreement. That doesnt mean I dont try and trade with the other owners in the league.
12 Team PPR, 6pt TDs
1QB, 2RBs, 3WRs, 1TE, 2Flex (W/R/T)
QB: Jackson, Mayfield, Pickett
RB: Walker, N. Harris, JT, L. Murray, Scott
WR: Jefferson, K.Allen, Higgins, Watson, Chark, Atwell
TE: Pitts, Njoku, Mayer(R) Tremble
2024 Picks: 1.05, 2.03/2.09, 4.05/4.09

nathanq42
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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby nathanq42 » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:41 am

For me trades are about fulfilling needs. If Im stacked at WR, rolling out Nuk, Mike Evans, and MT on a weekly basis, with DJ moore, Calvin Ridley, and Juju Riding the pine, but at the same time my best RB is Philip Lindsay... I cant supplement my RBs from the WW, I must trade one of my WRs for a RB of equal caliber. Obviously there will be winning and losing trades, but there can be mutually beneficial trades too. If I trade Ridley and something small for lets say Mixon, my weekly points just increased by ~20, since Ridley was giving me nothing while on the bench, and Mixon sure as hell would be starting over anyone I have at RB, and the same can be true for my trading partner but flip WRs and RBs.
12 Team 1 ppr .1 points per carry
Garbage
QB Jalen Hurts
RB A-train, D'Onta Foreman,Jahmyr Gibbs, JK Dobbins, Rashaad Penny, AJ Dillon, Jerrick McKinnon, Joshua Kelley, TDP, Chase Edmonds, JRob, Zamir White
WR CeeDee Lamb, Justin Jefferson, DJ Moore, Hollywood Brown, Brandin Cooks, Odell Beckham Junior, Marvin Jones, Braxton Berrios, Richie James
TE Dalton Kincaid, Foster Moreau
+2 Flex
1.02, 1.06

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Re: So...what is the point of trading?

Postby CGW » Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:13 am

In a competitive league, I find it hard to believe a team can consistently contend without trading. The issue is you typically only get 5 picks a year and you only hit on one or two of those 5 in a good year. Your roster will age too quickly if you can't sell off older pieces at some point to accumulate draft capital. Several owners in my leagues are learning this as they missed on a draft or two in a row while those who had more draft capital are quickly becoming the top teams.

Waiver wire is a second option to trading, but if the league is deep at all it is fairly rare to find a long term asset on the waiver.

I agree player swaps are not essential, but selling for picks is absolutely essential in real life football an even more so in fantasy where our player pool is significantly smaller.
12 Team | SF | PPR | 6pt pass TD
QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FL, SF

QB | Murray, Prescott
RB | Jeff Wilson, Pierre-Strong
WR | Adams, Olave, ARSB, Dotson, Addison
TE | Andrews, Otton, Bellinger, Likely, Okonkwo
2024 | 1st 2025 | 1stx3, 2nd, 3rdx2

10 Team | SF | PPR
QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FL, SF

QB | Murray, Tagovailoa, Stroud
RB | Montgomery, Swift, Dobbins, Singletary, Jamaal Williams, R. White, Davis-Price, Herbert, Miller
WR | Godwin, AJB, Lamb, D. Johnson, M. Brown, Mooney, Kirk, J. Williams, Skyy Moore, Watson
TE | Andrews, Bellinger, Dulcich
2024 | 1st, 2nd, 3rd

12 Team | SF | PPR | 1.5TEP | 6pt pass TD
QB, RB, RB, WR, WR, WR, TE, FL, FL, SF

QB | Herbert, Love, Young, Lance
RB | ETN, Pacheco, Ford, Warren
WR | ARSB, Wilson, Olave, DK, Flowers, Collins, Downs
TE | Hockenson, Dulcich, Likely, Otton
2024 | 2nd, 3rdx3, 4th


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