Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

General talk about Dynasty Leagues.

How do you feel about potential points?

For it
35
48%
Against it
19
26%
Indifferent
12
16%
Depends on the league
7
10%
 
Total votes: 73

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby lukkynumber13 » Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:46 am

Dynasty DeLorean wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:38 pm As a person who clearly had the worst team in the league a few years ago I got 5 wins on a fluke, I feel like potential points should be used for the non playoff seeding. The worst team should always get the best pick, and so on and so forth. It also prevents tanking or any suspect lineup decisions. Even in high integrity leagues, like I said the worst teams should get the best picks, makes the entire league more healthy and competitive.
very well said
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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby thebeast » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:05 pm

MrUbuto wrote: Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:46 pm Coaching should be part of the deal. Otherwise just play best ball
Did you even read the thread? Good coaching is rewarded with playoffs, but bad coaching shouldn’t be rewarded with higher draft picks.

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby briank » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:14 pm

grooner wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 9:27 am
briank wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:45 pm
grooner wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:04 pm I am pretty indifferent towards it either way, I can see how it devalues tanking but if you have owners who try and tank the league may fail for different reasons anyways.

Many posters have listed the reasons why it is a good idea, so I don't think there is a need to pile on as there are some very well thought out posts here.

The one issue I have is it can sort of screw over owners who were already unlucky. Let's say you have a great team and have a tough time deciding who to start each week and choose wrong more often than not. This will make you lose games, but your PP is still high you just set lineups poorly. So now you don't make the playoffs, but you also don't get a good draft pick due to potential points, is that fair? Or if you end up with the most points against, losing lots of games, no playoffs, but once again not a good draft pick. Head to head leagues have a lot of randomness, so removing it only in a portion seems strange. Mine as well go bestball if you want to use potential picks to determine the draft order.
BUT, that really good team who missed the playoffs because of bad decisions shouldn't be rewarded with a better pick. It's already a good team. The best picks should go to the worst teams.
I agree, but potential points doesn't always do that. Injuries, late breakouts, suspensions etc can easily skew potential points also. If a bad team gets lucky and makes the playoffs, but gets crushed in the first round, their potential points don't help them out. So now thw "worst" teams aren't getting the highest picks. Should the playoff participants be decided by potential points? The point of fantasy football is to win, not score more potential points. Like I said before, if you want to do that just do bestball and then it will sort it self out.

I don't mind potential points, just like to play devils advocate. Also not a fan of doing one ranking system for half the league (playoff teams), and one for the other half (nonplayoff teams).
I have never seen the worst team even come close to the playoffs. Yes, luck is part of this game we play and it should play a part. The teams that narrowly miss or make the playoffs are not the teams we are talking about here. Potential points should only be used for non playoff teams. If a bad team lucks into the playoffs, great they have a shot at winning it all. That's not a bad thing. What should never happen is a great team unluckily missing the playoffs and ending up with a top 3 pick because of how the schedule fell. That is awful for parody.

As far as using different criteria for each half, why the hell not? There is a logic reason to do it that way. We shouldn't make a logical decision just because it's different? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Last edited by briank on Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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TE Kelce/Kittle/Njoku
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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby briank » Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:17 pm

WhatWouldDitkaDo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:31 am
briank wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:41 pm
WhatWouldDitkaDo wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:18 pm I understand why some leagues would want this, but I'm not a fan. There should be no need for potential points as long as the bylaws state that best lineups should be set through Week 13, and the commissioner is on top of things.
Best lineup is subjective and people will work around those rules. Potential points is by far the best way to give the worst roster the best pick.
Hence the importance of a good commissioner
A good commissioner can't change subjective opinions. The best lineup to you might not be the best lineup to me. I would hate to be in a league where a know it all commissioner can dictate my lineup because they think they know better than me.
12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 9
QB Allen/Tubisky/Lock
RB Mixon/Harris/Etienne
WR DJ Moore
TE Kelce/Irv
2022 1.06/1.09
2023 3x 1st

12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 10
QB Mahomes/Watson/Ryan
RB CMC/Zeke/Mixon/Sanders
WR Evans/Godwin/Robinson/Golladay/Thielen/Lockett/Fuller
TE Kittle/Waller/L. Thomas

12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 10
QB Mahomes/Murray/Brady
RB CMC
WR Adams/Hill/Diggs/AJ Brown/Aiyuk/Woods/R. Moore
TE Kelce/Kittle/Njoku
2x 2023 1sts

12 tm PPR 1.5 for TE Superflex start 2 TE start 12
QB Herbert/Tua/Lawrence/Fields
RB Harris/Etienne
WR Jefferson/Deebo/Lamb/DSmith/Sutton/Juedy/Kirk/E. Moore/R. Moore
TE Kittle/Pitts/Waller/Fant/Njoku
2022 1.01/1.12/2.02

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby WhatWouldDitkaDo » Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:58 pm

briank wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:17 pm
WhatWouldDitkaDo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:31 am
briank wrote: Fri Dec 06, 2019 3:41 pm
Best lineup is subjective and people will work around those rules. Potential points is by far the best way to give the worst roster the best pick.
Hence the importance of a good commissioner
A good commissioner can't change subjective opinions. The best lineup to you might not be the best lineup to me. I would hate to be in a league where a know it all commissioner can dictate my lineup because they think they know better than me.
I didn't say that at all. I meant that a good commissioner will keep tanking in check, so a bad team who started their best lineup and lost shouldn't be penalized because random players on their bench blew up.
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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby Phaded » Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:07 pm

I think one of the biggest problems with this whole concept is that many are assuming that a higher potential points automatically means that they are a better team. Could they have potentially scored more points than some of their opponents if they made some potentially obscure lineup decisions? Yeah, maybe. Potential points essentially says that you may have lost for starting Jarvis Landry & Julio Jones this week, but because you had Zach Pascal and Justin Watson on your bench - you're actually a stronger team than you realize and starting Julio & Landry was the wrong choice.

This is essentially the exact same argument that some are using to spin against utilizing W-L record and that it is not truly indicative of who the best team is.

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby trc » Tue Dec 10, 2019 5:58 am

Phaded wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:07 pm I think one of the biggest problems with this whole concept is that many are assuming that a higher potential points automatically means that they are a better team. Could they have potentially scored more points than some of their opponents if they made some potentially obscure lineup decisions? Yeah, maybe. Potential points essentially says that you may have lost for starting Jarvis Landry & Julio Jones this week, but because you had Zach Pascal and Justin Watson on your bench - you're actually a stronger team than you realize and starting Julio & Landry was the wrong choice.

This is essentially the exact same argument that some are using to spin against utilizing W-L record and that it is not truly indicative of who the best team is.
In one of the leagues I participate in, we do all-play record for the non-playoff teams.
While it is not perfect for tanking, it does not give an owner the double blow of having a roster guy going of with a dud in line-up, as PP does. It also doesn't penalize bad teams with a lucky H2H streak.

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby remedy29 » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:27 am

I am for potential points. It is not ideal, but there are always owners who won't stay on top of their team when they are constantly losing. People have lives, are too busy and simply don't care enough about their dynasty team as you or I. Therefore, potential points is one workaround. I am for removing owners who are not active with their team, but that doesn't solve individual season tanking.

In my 12 team league, the top 4 teams from 2018 are placed in the "good" division. We play divisional opponents twice and don't play 1 team from the other two divisions, so right off the bat, teams schedule are not identical, so win loss record shouldn't be the end all be all for draft order. My team was league average, but since I had a hard schedule, my record was bottom 3. Should I be awarded with the 2nd draft pick or the 6th?

And I would much prefer Victory Points instead of win loss record to determine playoff teams. VP awards 2 per win and 1 for a top half in weekly points. It makes a difference by end of season.

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby MEuRaH » Tue Dec 10, 2019 6:56 am

I've used potential points in all of my leagues to set draft position. No issues.

There have been teams in the past that entirely cleared out their roster to acquire draft picks and thus ensuring they get the #1 pick. I have no issue with this. They also have to draft well, and if you saw what happened these last two year, they would have been better off keeping their vets or at least trading some away and not tanking to the level that they did.
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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby Pac_Eddy » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:20 am

A lot of comments about teams feeling punished or penalized for having a guy on the bench going off, like say Slayton last night.

Who is punished more: team A, who went 6-7, that doesn't have bench depth that can go off, and by win loss record has the #5 overall pick,

Or team B, who went 6-7, who has solid depth and upside guys, who picks #4 overall over team A because of a head to head loss over team A?

My point being that having depth that can go off is GOOD, and makes that team a better overall team than a team that doesn't have that depth or less of it.
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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby CGW » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:50 am

I voted depends on the league. I hate the commissioner having to make subjective decisions.

I have one where obvious tanking is not an issue at all. It does happen, but it's relatively small net effect.

I have another league where tanking abused like crazy. The bottom 6 teams had a race for the bottom starting in week 6. It kills the rankings. Points possible would have stopped this, as the bottom 2 teams would have ended 5th and 7th in points possible, but ended 11th and 12th in W-L. It also caused a pick I traded for to end up as 1.04 when it was clearly the worst team in the league.

Points possible still allows tanking, but it's a more fair version. You have to essentially trade off all the scoring vets and/or RBs on your roster to reduce points. You then have to draft well to compete.
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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby Cult of Dionysus » Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:52 am

Yup, think of terms of ASSETS not in terms of wins and losses. A team with more assets is a stronger team, as it can convert those assets into different assets, be it picks or players.

And the weakest teams with the fewest assets needs the most help, hence why it should get the highest pick.

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby briank » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:04 am

WhatWouldDitkaDo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:58 pm
briank wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 12:17 pm
WhatWouldDitkaDo wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 11:31 am
Hence the importance of a good commissioner
A good commissioner can't change subjective opinions. The best lineup to you might not be the best lineup to me. I would hate to be in a league where a know it all commissioner can dictate my lineup because they think they know better than me.
I didn't say that at all. I meant that a good commissioner will keep tanking in check, so a bad team who started their best lineup and lost shouldn't be penalized because random players on their bench blew up.
That goes both ways. It's a great idea on paper, but impossible to manage. Someone can play a less than great lineup and have perfectly good reasons for those lineup decisions and there's nothing that good commissioner can do about it short of being a tyrant. It sounds great in theory. It's impossible in practice.
12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 9
QB Allen/Tubisky/Lock
RB Mixon/Harris/Etienne
WR DJ Moore
TE Kelce/Irv
2022 1.06/1.09
2023 3x 1st

12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 10
QB Mahomes/Watson/Ryan
RB CMC/Zeke/Mixon/Sanders
WR Evans/Godwin/Robinson/Golladay/Thielen/Lockett/Fuller
TE Kittle/Waller/L. Thomas

12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 10
QB Mahomes/Murray/Brady
RB CMC
WR Adams/Hill/Diggs/AJ Brown/Aiyuk/Woods/R. Moore
TE Kelce/Kittle/Njoku
2x 2023 1sts

12 tm PPR 1.5 for TE Superflex start 2 TE start 12
QB Herbert/Tua/Lawrence/Fields
RB Harris/Etienne
WR Jefferson/Deebo/Lamb/DSmith/Sutton/Juedy/Kirk/E. Moore/R. Moore
TE Kittle/Pitts/Waller/Fant/Njoku
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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby briank » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:12 am

Phaded wrote: Mon Dec 09, 2019 4:07 pm I think one of the biggest problems with this whole concept is that many are assuming that a higher potential points automatically means that they are a better team. Could they have potentially scored more points than some of their opponents if they made some potentially obscure lineup decisions? Yeah, maybe. Potential points essentially says that you may have lost for starting Jarvis Landry & Julio Jones this week, but because you had Zach Pascal and Justin Watson on your bench - you're actually a stronger team than you realize and starting Julio & Landry was the wrong choice.

This is essentially the exact same argument that some are using to spin against utilizing W-L record and that it is not truly indicative of who the best team is.
While it might not be a perfect judge on a weekly basis, it is far and away the best way to evaluate the value of each team over the course of a season.
12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 9
QB Allen/Tubisky/Lock
RB Mixon/Harris/Etienne
WR DJ Moore
TE Kelce/Irv
2022 1.06/1.09
2023 3x 1st

12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 10
QB Mahomes/Watson/Ryan
RB CMC/Zeke/Mixon/Sanders
WR Evans/Godwin/Robinson/Golladay/Thielen/Lockett/Fuller
TE Kittle/Waller/L. Thomas

12 tm tiered PPR Superflex start 10
QB Mahomes/Murray/Brady
RB CMC
WR Adams/Hill/Diggs/AJ Brown/Aiyuk/Woods/R. Moore
TE Kelce/Kittle/Njoku
2x 2023 1sts

12 tm PPR 1.5 for TE Superflex start 2 TE start 12
QB Herbert/Tua/Lawrence/Fields
RB Harris/Etienne
WR Jefferson/Deebo/Lamb/DSmith/Sutton/Juedy/Kirk/E. Moore/R. Moore
TE Kittle/Pitts/Waller/Fant/Njoku
2022 1.01/1.12/2.02

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Re: Potential Points (POLL) : Yay, nay, whatever?

Postby Phaded » Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:29 am

Cult of Dionysus wrote: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:52 am Yup, think of terms of ASSETS not in terms of wins and losses. A team with more assets is a stronger team, as it can convert those assets into different assets, be it picks or players.
I disagree with this completely and this statement is league dependent.
If you are in a league with large starting requirements then absolutely there is an argument for more value to quantity - however, many owners prefer the quality over quantity approach (myself included).

Would you rather have 4 back-end RB2s or a Saquon Barkley for example?


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