Lamar Jackson is the best QB in the NFL & Fantasy

[ThunderTung]

When he stops developing. That time is certainly not now. Josh Allen’s developed as a passer and a decision maker. Lamar could also certainly still develop as a decision maker.


I’m not sure why Lamar is being compared to every running QB thats failed.

He’s got the legs and quick release of Michael Vick. That’s who you should be comparing him to, not Vince Young, Tim Tebow or w/e failed running QB you want to name that he shares no parallels with outside of the fact they were dual threats.

Also worth noting that Vick, by his own admission didnt work to develop as a passer until he came to PHI. Lamar’s work ethic is not in question and so far he’s avoided the injuries and off-field issues that prevented Vick from ever becoming a HoF QB

The difference is that Vick had the arm strength. He could effortlessly launch the ball with a quick flick, he did have consistency issues. But he still threw a good deep ball. I don't think Lamar has the arm strength.

And how long do we take to let him develop?

[Sriracha]

When he stops developing. That time is certainly not now. Josh Allen’s developed as a passer and a decision maker. Lamar could also certainly still develop as a decision maker.


I’m not sure why Lamar is being compared to every running QB thats failed.

He’s got the legs and quick release of Michael Vick. That’s who you should be comparing him to, not Vince Young, Tim Tebow or w/e failed running QB you want to name that he shares no parallels with outside of the fact they were dual threats.

Also worth noting that Vick, by his own admission didnt work to develop as a passer until he came to PHI. Lamar’s work ethic is not in question and so far he’s avoided the injuries and off-field issues that prevented Vick from ever becoming a HoF QB

The difference is that Vick had the arm strength. He could effortlessly launch the ball with a quick flick, he did have consistency issues. But he still threw a good deep ball. I don't think Lamar has the arm strength.

And how long do we take to let him develop?

Dude threw for 3,100 yards 36TDs and 6 INTs with a 66% completion percentage in his MVP season. He's on pace for 3,000 yards, 24TDs 8INTs with a 63% completion percentage.. He's struggling more than he did last year, but it's not as if he's been a complete bust of a passer.

As long as he's serviceable (which he is) you wait as long as he's an electric runner.

[ThunderTung]

When he stops developing. That time is certainly not now. Josh Allen’s developed as a passer and a decision maker. Lamar could also certainly still develop as a decision maker.


I’m not sure why Lamar is being compared to every running QB thats failed.

He’s got the legs and quick release of Michael Vick. That’s who you should be comparing him to, not Vince Young, Tim Tebow or w/e failed running QB you want to name that he shares no parallels with outside of the fact they were dual threats.

Also worth noting that Vick, by his own admission didnt work to develop as a passer until he came to PHI. Lamar’s work ethic is not in question and so far he’s avoided the injuries and off-field issues that prevented Vick from ever becoming a HoF QB

The difference is that Vick had the arm strength. He could effortlessly launch the ball with a quick flick, he did have consistency issues. But he still threw a good deep ball. I don't think Lamar has the arm strength.

And how long do we take to let him develop?

Dude threw for 3,100 yards 36TDs and 6 INTs with a 66% completion percentage in his MVP season. He's on pace for 3,000 yards, 24TDs 8INTs with a 63% completion percentage.. He's struggling more than he did last year, but it's not as if he's been a complete bust of a passer.

As long as he's serviceable (which he is) you wait as long as he's an electric runner.

I think your misunderstanding. This isn't a question of how long the Ravens stick with him, its how long do we give him to develop his arm before we go "oh yea, its just not that good" I agreed he can have a decent career with his legs. But let's not pretend that if he didn't have his legs he wouldn't be considered a bust.

I just dont think its something that will develop. The only reason he's had any success throwing the ball is because defenses are only worried about him running. If he proves me wrong i'll gladly come back to this and admit it, but until then im not buying it.

[Sriracha]

The difference is that Vick had the arm strength. He could effortlessly launch the ball with a quick flick, he did have consistency issues. But he still threw a good deep ball. I don't think Lamar has the arm strength.

And how long do we take to let him develop?

Dude threw for 3,100 yards 36TDs and 6 INTs with a 66% completion percentage in his MVP season. He's on pace for 3,000 yards, 24TDs 8INTs with a 63% completion percentage.. He's struggling more than he did last year, but it's not as if he's been a complete bust of a passer.

As long as he's serviceable (which he is) you wait as long as he's an electric runner.

I think your misunderstanding. This isn't a question of how long the Ravens stick with him, its how long do we give him to develop his arm before we go "oh yea, its just not that good" I agreed he can have a decent career with his legs. But let's not pretend that if he didn't have his legs he wouldn't be considered a bust.

I just dont think its something that will develop. The only reason he's had any success throwing the ball is because defenses are only worried about him running. If he proves me wrong i'll gladly come back to this and admit it, but until then im not buying it.

He literally broke the all time record for PPG last year.. as a fantasy owner, do we really care how or why he gets his points so long as it looks repeatable?

[jenkins.math]

Dude threw for 3,100 yards 36TDs and 6 INTs with a 66% completion percentage in his MVP season. He's on pace for 3,000 yards, 24TDs 8INTs with a 63% completion percentage.. He's struggling more than he did last year, but it's not as if he's been a complete bust of a passer.

As long as he's serviceable (which he is) you wait as long as he's an electric runner.

I think your misunderstanding. This isn't a question of how long the Ravens stick with him, its how long do we give him to develop his arm before we go "oh yea, its just not that good" I agreed he can have a decent career with his legs. But let's not pretend that if he didn't have his legs he wouldn't be considered a bust.

I just dont think its something that will develop. The only reason he's had any success throwing the ball is because defenses are only worried about him running. If he proves me wrong i'll gladly come back to this and admit it, but until then im not buying it.

He literally broke the all time record for PPG last year.. as a fantasy owner, do we really care how or why he gets his points so long as it looks repeatable?

Does what he did last year really look repeatable though? If you think its repeatable then name your wager, because ill smash accept the under on that.

[Sriracha]

I think your misunderstanding. This isn't a question of how long the Ravens stick with him, its how long do we give him to develop his arm before we go "oh yea, its just not that good" I agreed he can have a decent career with his legs. But let's not pretend that if he didn't have his legs he wouldn't be considered a bust.

I just dont think its something that will develop. The only reason he's had any success throwing the ball is because defenses are only worried about him running. If he proves me wrong i'll gladly come back to this and admit it, but until then im not buying it.

He literally broke the all time record for PPG last year.. as a fantasy owner, do we really care how or why he gets his points so long as it looks repeatable?

Does what he did last year really look repeatable though? If you think its repeatable then name your wager, because ill smash accept the under on that.

I don't mean repeatable as in he'll hit the mark that set the ppg record for QBs in fantasy football.

But repeatable as in Patrick Mahomes and his 50 TD sophomore season. Will he ever repeat that season? Probably not. He followed up that season with 4,000 yards and 26TDs in 14 games last year and is now having a great season, but is still off-pace from that record setting year.

QB production is volatile from year to year, even for the best QBs in fantasy. Lamar could easily have a bounce back season next year; or a strong finish to the season.

[fruity pebbles]

He’s got a sweet fantasy playoff schedule

[ThunderTung]

Dude threw for 3,100 yards 36TDs and 6 INTs with a 66% completion percentage in his MVP season. He's on pace for 3,000 yards, 24TDs 8INTs with a 63% completion percentage.. He's struggling more than he did last year, but it's not as if he's been a complete bust of a passer.

As long as he's serviceable (which he is) you wait as long as he's an electric runner.

I think your misunderstanding. This isn't a question of how long the Ravens stick with him, its how long do we give him to develop his arm before we go "oh yea, its just not that good" I agreed he can have a decent career with his legs. But let's not pretend that if he didn't have his legs he wouldn't be considered a bust.

I just dont think its something that will develop. The only reason he's had any success throwing the ball is because defenses are only worried about him running. If he proves me wrong i'll gladly come back to this and admit it, but until then im not buying it.

He literally broke the all time record for PPG last year.. as a fantasy owner, do we really care how or why he gets his points so long as it looks repeatable?

lets not move the goal posts here lol. He's obviously a valuable fantasy asset, however thats not what were talking about. we're talking about his arm. the title of the thread asks if he's the best QB in fantasy AND in the NFL

[mild]

lets not move the goal posts here lol. He's obviously a valuable fantasy asset, however thats not what were talking about. we're talking about his arm. the title of the thread asks if he's the best QB in fantasy AND in the NFL

Given that this thread is 50 pages long already, and that the title has long been debunked - I think it's alright to move the goal posts. This is - for better and for worse - the Lamar thread. It was created at the height of a truly extraordinary 2019 season, but also very willingly created alongside another identical thread title that had Patrick Mahomes name in it instead. I presume this was as much for the lols as for the hyperbole. I think it's been abundantly clear, certainly since the Superbowl, that the best QB in the NFL is Patrick Mahomes. I doubt I will hear any arguments here.

Lamar going forward is still a worthy discussion, though. It's not bad Dynasty process to be talking about where he goes from here in his career. And if I could personally change the thread title? I would.

For my money? His arm strength isn't a problem getting it deep, and he's actually fairly regarded for his current level of arm strength by the league and media. The problem is his deep/outside accuracy. It hasn't been the same this year, and it seems to come and go - but mechanically, he -does- look better.

I know one thing - you've been asking "how much more do we need to see" - and I think that is wildly early hyperbole for a guy still on his rookie deal with an all-time winning percentage and a league MVP title through two seasons. Even if it comes down to this as a question for the Ravens - can you even imagine the motivation of contract-year Lamar, if it comes to that?

I like betting on guys that command the huddle, that have that leadership, and that fire to win. Guys that look in the mirror and yearn to get better and be great. The man is a borderline maniac on this front; you can doubt him at your peril. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and ride this train until the wheels fall off - because I trust him to work it out, and because I believe he's earned at least that much trust based on his exploits thus far.

[ThunderTung]

lets not move the goal posts here lol. He's obviously a valuable fantasy asset, however thats not what were talking about. we're talking about his arm. the title of the thread asks if he's the best QB in fantasy AND in the NFL

Given that this thread is 50 pages long already, and that the title has long been debunked - I think it's alright to move the goal posts. This is - for better and for worse - the Lamar thread. It was created at the height of a truly extraordinary 2019 season, but also very willingly created alongside another identical thread title that had Patrick Mahomes name in it instead. I presume this was as much for the lols as for the hyperbole. I think it's been abundantly clear, certainly since the Superbowl, that the best QB in the NFL is Patrick Mahomes. I doubt I will hear any arguments here.

Lamar going forward is still a worthy discussion, though. It's not bad Dynasty process to be talking about where he goes from here in his career. And if I could personally change the thread title? I would.

For my money? His arm strength isn't a problem getting it deep, and he's actually fairly regarded for his current level of arm strength by the league and media. The problem is his deep/outside accuracy. It hasn't been the same this year, and it seems to come and go - but mechanically, he -does- look better.

I know one thing - you've been asking "how much more do we need to see" - and I think that is wildly early hyperbole for a guy still on his rookie deal with an all-time winning percentage and a league MVP title through two seasons. Even if it comes down to this as a question for the Ravens - can you even imagine the motivation of contract-year Lamar, if it comes to that?

I like betting on guys that command the huddle, that have that leadership, and that fire to win. Guys that look in the mirror and yearn to get better and be great. The man is a borderline maniac on this front; you can doubt him at your peril. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt, and ride this train until the wheels fall off - because I trust him to work it out, and because I believe he's earned at least that much trust based on his exploits thus far.

im referring to moving the goalposts on my argument, not the thread. All I said was how long do we give him before we decide he doesn't have the arm. Its not something we see develop all that much outside of college. its the QB's version of you cant coach speed. Im not talking about the totality of his career, or his fantasy production. Im challenging the people that insist that he has an above average arm, or that he will at least develop one. Because I'm not sure he will.

I've stated multiple times that he can still have a solid a career. However the issue with a QB that doesn't have the arm, is playing from behind. If you can get an early lead, play safe, and run a lot you're good. However when you're down, and you have to make the tough throws at the end of the game, its where you fall short.

I personally just don't see getting all that much better for him, and for his sake, and anyone who invests in him, i hope I'm wrong, and I'll gladly admit it if i am. As of now though, I just don't see him being the QB that can go out and win those tough playoff games without an absolutely bonkers defense. he's fun to watch, and he'll put up gaudy rushing numbers in the regular season, apart from that though i just dont see much else

[Sriracha]

Now, I’m confused.

What exactly are we talking about if not Lamar’s ability to play QB and score points?

This idea that you have to be an elite passer for prolonged success as an NFL QB is based on a plethora of failed NFL QBs that were 1/2 the runner Lamar is. Lamar’s running helps him pass— this has already been seen in his MVP year 2 where he was still a subpar yet highly efficient passer.

The same is true this year, he’s just scoring less touchdowns and people are jumping the gun to proclaim ha! I was right! Meanwhile Lamar is having the best w/l start to an NFL career in history and is still easily guiding his team to the playoffs.

I’m not moving the goalpost (at least as far as the issues I brought up with your arguments). I havent read most of this thread, so apologies if you thought I was coming into this with a different perspective on Lamar. I have never argued that Lamar was a good passer, or that he was the best QB in the NFL. I do believe he's one of the best fantasy QBs, and that he has more staying power than other "running Qbs" like Tebow and Vince Young.

[ThunderTung]

Now, I’m confused.

What exactly are we talking about if not Lamar’s ability to play QB and score points?

This idea that you have to be an elite passer for prolonged success as an NFL QB is based on a plethora of failed NFL QBs that were 1/2 the runner Lamar is. Lamar’s running helps him pass— this has already been seen in his MVP year 2 where he was still a subpar yet highly efficient passer.

The same is true this year, he’s just scoring less touchdowns and people are jumping the gun to proclaim ha! I was right! Meanwhile Lamar is having the best w/l start to an NFL career in history and is still easily guiding his team to the playoffs.

I’m not moving the goalpost (at least as far as the issues I brought up with your arguments). I havent read most of this thread, so apologies if you thought I was coming into this with a different perspective on Lamar. I have never argued that Lamar was a good passer, or that he was the best QB in the NFL. I do believe he's one of the best fantasy QBs, and that he has more staying power than other "running Qbs" like Tebow and Vince Young.

the post i originally replied to was you saying that Lamar is improving as a passer every year, my original question was how long do we say that before we just say that he's just not a good passer. I never brought up him being fantasy relevant, or being a bad QB.

Now to respond to the bolded, are we supposed to discount that? Like the main job of a QB is to be an elite passer. Relying on your legs has never been sustainable. Why is Lamar different? We see it happen often. Super athletic, relies on his running ability, success early on his career, and then falls off. Can you really fault people for having doubts this time around?

[Sriracha]

the post i originally replied to was you saying that Lamar is improving as a passer every year, my original question was how long do we say that before we just say that he's just not a good passer. I never brought up him being fantasy relevant, or being a bad QB.

Now to respond to the bolded, are we supposed to discount that? Like the main job of a QB is to be an elite passer. Relying on your legs has never been sustainable. Why is Lamar different? We see it happen often. Super athletic, relies on his running ability, success early on his career, and then falls off. Can you really fault people for having doubts this time around?

At the NFL level, the job of a QB is to win games.

You're trying to reduce Lamar to "running QB". He's not similar to running QBs like Vince Young, and Tim Tebow. He's Lamar Jackson, and the closest comparison we have to him is Michael Vick -- who was a perennial pro bowler with a 44 - 56% completion percentage as a Falcon. The level of speed, elusiveness and ability to throw on the run is just on a completely different level from the QBs you're trying to compare him to. No running QB has ever seen this level of success over a 30 game stretch.

People are free to have their reservations because they don't have a neat blue print to judge him against; but this assumption of failure based on incongruent comparisons is what I don't agree with.

[jenkins.math]

the post i originally replied to was you saying that Lamar is improving as a passer every year, my original question was how long do we say that before we just say that he's just not a good passer. I never brought up him being fantasy relevant, or being a bad QB.

Now to respond to the bolded, are we supposed to discount that? Like the main job of a QB is to be an elite passer. Relying on your legs has never been sustainable. Why is Lamar different? We see it happen often. Super athletic, relies on his running ability, success early on his career, and then falls off. Can you really fault people for having doubts this time around?

At the NFL level, the job of a QB is to win games.

You're trying to reduce Lamar to "running QB". He's not similar to running QBs like Vince Young, and Tim Tebow. He's Lamar Jackson, and the closest comparison we have to him is Michael Vick -- who was a perennial pro bowler with a 44 - 56% completion percentage as a Falcon. The level of speed, elusiveness and ability to throw on the run is just on a completely different level from the QBs you're trying to compare him to. No running QB has ever seen this level of success over a 30 game stretch.

People are free to have their reservations because they don't have a neat blue print to judge him against; but this assumption of failure based on incongruent comparisons is what I don't agree with.

Obviously you are firmly entrenched in your stance, but you are ignoring all the history and previous experiences of running QBs with a rebuttal of "he's Lamar Jackson"?!? Well I guess that settles that...

[Jigga94]

the post i originally replied to was you saying that Lamar is improving as a passer every year, my original question was how long do we say that before we just say that he's just not a good passer. I never brought up him being fantasy relevant, or being a bad QB.

Now to respond to the bolded, are we supposed to discount that? Like the main job of a QB is to be an elite passer. Relying on your legs has never been sustainable. Why is Lamar different? We see it happen often. Super athletic, relies on his running ability, success early on his career, and then falls off. Can you really fault people for having doubts this time around?

At the NFL level, the job of a QB is to win games.

You're trying to reduce Lamar to "running QB". He's not similar to running QBs like Vince Young, and Tim Tebow. He's Lamar Jackson, and the closest comparison we have to him is Michael Vick -- who was a perennial pro bowler with a 44 - 56% completion percentage as a Falcon. The level of speed, elusiveness and ability to throw on the run is just on a completely different level from the QBs you're trying to compare him to. No running QB has ever seen this level of success over a 30 game stretch.

People are free to have their reservations because they don't have a neat blue print to judge him against; but this assumption of failure based on incongruent comparisons is what I don't agree with.

Obviously you are firmly entrenched in your stance, but you are ignoring all the history and previous experiences of running QBs with a rebuttal of "he's Lamar Jackson"?!? Well I guess that settles that...

Is he not more talented than the rest of the "rushing QBs" though? He just listed a bunch that were awful QB and couldn't hack it. Then there's Vick, who had lots of success but was an abysmal thrower. Lamar is already doing more than what Vick did. It doesn't seem fair to box him in with the old rushing QB standard.

This isn't to say I don't have questions about his talents as a thrower, but I think they are already better than the rushing QBs we've seen recently. Add on top of this, that he's winning games still! The only losses this year are to the SB defending Chiefs and the undefeated Steelers. Now, this is a concern for me... Can he win the big games, can he come from behind and win? That may always be a weakness, but regardless, he's great for fantasy.

I really do see people's concerns with the guy because of what they have to compare him to... But c'mon he's already proven to be better than who he's being compared to.