Conner and Samuels

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Valhalla
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Conner and Samuels

Postby Valhalla » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:09 pm

I'm hoping for a non-locked discussion on these guys. It's an interesting topic but unfortunately has brought some heated arguments and thus they have no active thread.
They both look like good RBs to me. I prefer Jaylen's style a little more, but I like the way Conner looks running the ball as well. I'm in the camp that believes this should be a rotation to keep them both fresh. Go all in rushing like the DeAngelo JStew days! I'm hoping they don't just return to heavy doses of Conner with dashes of Samuels getting to block...but I'm learning to never be surprised by a coach sticking to his methods...even when another method works better by accident.

Anyways...thoughts on watching these two play this year? Conner looks sluggish at times (and did last year as well) but when he gets going he's got a head of steam. Like a bigger Marion Barber. Jaylen looks more agile/nifty but doesn't as aggressively accelerate into contact. He dances away from the contact more often (but still has some power), and is a more versatile weapon. PLEASE USE BOTH PLAYERS, TOMLIN! Just for the sake of watching it...

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby dlf_mikeh » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:29 pm

Valhalla wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:09 pm
I'm hoping for a non-locked discussion on these guys. It's an interesting topic but unfortunately has brought some heated arguments and thus they have no active thread.
I would disagree that the reason for "heated arguments" is because of opinions that are so passionate that threads needed to be locked. I have been waiting for someone to restart this conversation though, so thank you.
They both look like good RBs to me. I prefer Jaylen's style a little more, but I like the way Conner looks running the ball as well. I'm in the camp that believes this should be a rotation to keep them both fresh. Go all in rushing like the DeAngelo JStew days! I'm hoping they don't just return to heavy doses of Conner with dashes of Samuels getting to block...but I'm learning to never be surprised by a coach sticking to his methods...even when another method works better by accident.

Anyways...thoughts on watching these two play this year? Conner looks sluggish at times (and did last year as well) but when he gets going he's got a head of steam. Like a bigger Marion Barber. Jaylen looks more agile/nifty but doesn't as aggressively accelerate into contact. He dances away from the contact more often (but still has some power), and is a more versatile weapon. PLEASE USE BOTH PLAYERS, TOMLIN! Just for the sake of watching it...
Conner has looked both great and terrible. I never know which guy we're going to see on Sundays. Samuels has looked consistently good in every game. He hasn't looked as great as Conner at his best, but he's definitely been better than Conner at his worst.

Conner has one more year on his deal. I think we might see a decent time share for a while. When it comes for Conner to get a new contract, the Steelers may opt to cut him loose and make Samuels the primary guy.

I really don't know where this is going, and I'm not so sure I want either guy with this rookie QB at the helm. I'd probably trade both players, if I owned either of them anywhere.
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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:44 pm

I am not heated at all on the topic. The other thread got heated by one person who is no longer here on this board. I think both players are good. I don't think the way they ran the offense against the Bengals will work vs better D's. I have in the last few weeks moved off of Conner completely, in 3 different leagues. His value depending on the league and the owner varies greatly. To me this is not even close to the 2018 Steelers, and Conner has struggled with gaining yards, and now injuries. I like Samuels overall skill set, but I do think he is inferior to Conner in some areas, as well as superior in others. Conner has not come close to 20 carries this year, and I think he's an RB2 at this point. I think the offense will struggle, and it will be hard to support 2 RB's who can produce weekly starters in FF. I have no idea what the Steelers intent to do with usage going forward, but neither Samuel or Conner are elite talents at the position that can simply overcome bad situation with pure talent.
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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby Cameron Giles » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:05 pm

Conner was a clear sell high after last season, when he was being valued at RB1 prices. Just doesn't impress me. I think a lot of two-down backs could do what he does.

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby jenkins.math » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:06 pm

For me, Conner's value came from a great situation. The Steelers offense just churned out RB1s for the last decade no matter who was toting the rock. However, all good things must come to an end at some point and I'm afraid that is where we are at. That offense didn't look great in week 1, but without Big Ben it is in complete disarray.

I felt like Conner was a good back in a great situation, but I was concerned about injuries. He got banged up his rookie season despite being the backup and then missed time last season. Now he is banged up again so that would be a cause for concern moving forward as well as a possible timeshare/less than ideal Pitt offense. I also found the hiring of Jaylen Samuel's college coach to coach RBs in Pitt something to at least note.

I feel like Samuels is solid at a lot of things, but not special at anything. Those jack of all trades tend to be better real life football players than fantasy players. To me he is a better version of Cordarelle Patterson. I don't think he will ever be a lead back in the NFL, and his main reason for being exciting fantasy wise was the chance at being the lead back in Pitt.

Overall the main reason either of these guys were thought of as highly as they were was due to the Pittsburgh offense in general using one back and just being great using their RBs. Now that the situation isn't nearly as attractive neither one of these players are that attractive. The Steelers have had a great run, but we may be watching the end of an era and the start of a rebuild of sorts.
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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby ArrylT » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:13 am

I think the above post is a pretty fair assesment. I think one thing some owners may be forgetting is that James Conner does have a full set of skills. He is not a guy who can only play COP, or goalline, or only catch passes. He can do everything you need out of a full fledged 3 down RB - he simply does not do it to the level of 'excellence' that many might expect. At least imho. Your opinion may differ, but that is your opinion.

It should also be noted that Conners receiving totals have not dipped from last year. Last year despite missing 3-4 games, Conner was 12th in RB receptions, and had 55 total. This year he remains a top 12 back in terms of receptions (1 less reception than Kamara), but has had the misfortune of a worse situation and having faced 3 of the best rushing defences in 2019 so far. And before you say the Seahawks have allowed 400 yards rushing, recall that this is in 5 games (not 4). Conner is on a pace for 70-75 receptions and is a borderline RB1 in points.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby bjd5211 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:37 am

Samuels out for at least a month after getting his knee scoped. That on top of having a 3rd string QB probably means Conner is going to masquerade as an RB1 again due to volume.

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby Ice » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:10 am

The Steelers just are not clicking with the ground game.
Conner is 3.3 YPC Samuel is 2.8

Conner is the RB to own IMO. I don't think it is really close personally.

My concern is with the Steelers offense in general and it starts up front. Teams are forcing the Steelers to throw and the only real defense for the Steelers is to dust off the Wildcat because they are not scaring anyone with their current QB situation.

Not good for either RB.

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby Valhalla » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:26 am

Maybe the Steelers will lose enough games this year to be in position to nab a QB. They should push Rudolph and see what they have in him. Test him like it's a final interview. If he thrives, great. You have your QB of the future. If he struggles mightily, great. You have a high enough pick to have your QB of the future.

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby bjd5211 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:31 am

Valhalla wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:26 am
Maybe the Steelers will lose enough games this year to be in position to nab a QB. They should push Rudolph and see what they have in him. Test him like it's a final interview. If he thrives, great. You have your QB of the future. If he struggles mightily, great. You have a high enough pick to have your QB of the future.
They'll have to trade up or really like the 5th best QB option in this class, they traded their 1st round pick for Minkah Fitzpatrick. They also don't have a 3rd due to the trade to get Devin Bush, and they traded their 5 for Vannett. They do have two 4th round picks, but their draft capital is pretty limited overall for trading up.

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby djeternal2 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:43 am

bjd5211 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:31 am
Valhalla wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:26 am
Maybe the Steelers will lose enough games this year to be in position to nab a QB. They should push Rudolph and see what they have in him. Test him like it's a final interview. If he thrives, great. You have your QB of the future. If he struggles mightily, great. You have a high enough pick to have your QB of the future.
They'll have to trade up or really like the 5th best QB option in this class, they traded their 1st round pick for Minkah Fitzpatrick. They also don't have a 3rd due to the trade to get Devin Bush, and they traded their 5 for Vannett. They do have two 4th round picks, but their draft capital is pretty limited overall for trading up.
bjd laid out the Stillers draft capital pretty clearly. Plus the Stillers had a first round grade on Mason. They already feel he is the QB of the future and I doubt 12-14 games this year is going to move them off that position unless he's Brock Lobster bad and he hasn't been that so far. I felt coming out of the bye we'd see more of an open offense with Mason but with the concussion not so sure that happens now.
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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby Valhalla » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:47 am

bjd5211 wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:31 am
Valhalla wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:26 am
Maybe the Steelers will lose enough games this year to be in position to nab a QB. They should push Rudolph and see what they have in him. Test him like it's a final interview. If he thrives, great. You have your QB of the future. If he struggles mightily, great. You have a high enough pick to have your QB of the future.
They'll have to trade up or really like the 5th best QB option in this class, they traded their 1st round pick for Minkah Fitzpatrick. They also don't have a 3rd due to the trade to get Devin Bush, and they traded their 5 for Vannett. They do have two 4th round picks, but their draft capital is pretty limited overall for trading up.
I had forgotten about that. A little birdie in my ear was chirping a vague reminder that they had tied their hands on the QB situation but I ignored it instead of figuring out why I was thinking that.

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby bjd5211 » Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:52 am

It's certainly possible to get a quality QB in the early 2nd round, and this looks like a deep draft both overall and at QB so there could be decent options there. Typically the best way of getting a franchise QB is with a top 10 pick though, and the Steelers may want to just use that one high pick on a different position and just take another crack at it with Ben.

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby ArrylT » Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:49 pm

Interestingly enough, while James Conner has not yet had a 60 yard + rushing game, or 20+ carries, he has had (except week 5) gotten at least 4 receiving targets a week and has similar receiving totals to 2018. As such, while Conner is only an RB3 in rushing yardage, he is an RB1 in receptions and a borderline RB1 in production.

One has to assume part of the reason for the limited rushing volume is due to the situation - obviously a season with Antonio Brown & Ben Roethlisberger is better for your rushing totals than a season with Mason Rudolph / Devlin Hodges. ;)
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Conner and Samuels

Postby FantasyFreak » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:53 am

Conner looks to have a good gig while Samuels is out. I recently traded Conner away everywhere. His role in the passing game is keeping him afloat right now, and I see that taking a hit with Samuels back. The other thing that worries me, is he can't create on his own, and seems to always run into contact. Every game he gets dinged up. Twice in the last game he left, with two different injuries, the last one where he literally just ran straight into a player who cut him, and injured his quad. I like the kid, and his story, so I hope he has a good career, but in a dynasty context I have some serious concerns about his longevity and ability to have a lead role. Benny Snell out carried him this week, BTW.
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