Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

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remedy29
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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby remedy29 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:46 am

Discussing breakout age with Waller is silly. He is not a 22 year old rookie that we are trying to evaluate at the rookie 1.01 pick for a potential stud player. The only thing that matters now is his current situation. He signed an impressive extension for a team/head coach that wants to utilize the TE. The fact that the Raiders do not have WR, will only give Waller more opportunity to show what he can do. Those are big plusses, specially in the weak TE position.

I just picked up Foster Moreau and was bummed at the Waller contract. Can these two TEs coexist? I only have 20 roster spots and don't want to hang onto a long term hopeful TE.
1qb (6pt TD), 2rb, 2wr, 2 flex, k, def
Minshew, Brissett, Cousins, Haskins, Lock, Luck
Chubb, Carson, Lindsay, D. Freeman, Damian Harris
C. Kupp, A. Jeffrey, E. Sanders, Robby Anderson, P. Campbell, Preston Wilson, A. Brown
E. Ebron, Knox, J. Reed
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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby notweswelker » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:52 am

IZigUZag wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:26 am
notweswelker wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:36 am
IZigUZag wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:00 am


Foster Moreau is clocking in a truly absurd 4.85 yards per pass route as a rookie while being the superior blocker (on a lower sample size, of course).

lol :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You missed bro
Bookmarking this quote for 2021 ;)
You're in the Waller thread after his breakout and big extension trying to hype a blocking TE that you're expecting to hit in 2021?

Smugness personified.

Overview
Moreau is a feisty, committed run-blocking tackle with solid technique and footwork to find proper angles in-line or on the move. He's tough enough to battle at the point of attack, but at his best when he's a lead blocker on iso, wham blocks, and outside zone with his ability to locate and land on second-level targets. He lacks finesse as a route-runner and is too content to be covered when matched up against a linebacker. While he's not dynamic, he should find work as a run-blocking option who can be moved around formations.
-Lance Zierlein
Team 1: 10 Team SF
QB: Kyler Murray, M. Ryan, M. Stafford, Josh Allen, Daniel Jones
RB: DJ, Gurley, Barkley, Kerryon, Aaron Jones, M. Breida, Ito Smith
WR: OBJ, D. Adams, Tyreek Hill, Kenny Golladay, Tyler Boyd, Tyrell Williams, Antonio Callaway, Justin Watson, Preston Williams, Trey Quinn
TE: D. Waller, H. Henry, Jonnu Smith, Chris Herndon

Team 2 :14 Team SF
QB: Mahomes, Trubisky, Josh Allen, Daniel Jones
RB: Dalvin Cook, James Conner, Chris Carson, Aaron Jones, Devin Singletary
WR: D. Adams, JuJu, Golladay, Trey Quinn, Justin Watson, Preston Williams
TE: Kittle, Njoku, Herndon

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby notweswelker » Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:16 pm

remedy29 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:46 am
Discussing breakout age with Waller is silly. He is not a 22 year old rookie that we are trying to evaluate at the rookie 1.01 pick for a potential stud player. The only thing that matters now is his current situation. He signed an impressive extension for a team/head coach that wants to utilize the TE. The fact that the Raiders do not have WR, will only give Waller more opportunity to show what he can do. Those are big plusses, specially in the weak TE position.

I just picked up Foster Moreau and was bummed at the Waller contract. Can these two TEs coexist? I only have 20 roster spots and don't want to hang onto a long term hopeful TE.
They won't coexist as fantasy producers. We've seen that happen only once before with Gronk and Hernandez, and incredibly briefly with HH and Gates.
If Waller goes down Moreau might step into fantasy relevance. Generally handcuffing TEs is not a sound fantasy strategy.
Team 1: 10 Team SF
QB: Kyler Murray, M. Ryan, M. Stafford, Josh Allen, Daniel Jones
RB: DJ, Gurley, Barkley, Kerryon, Aaron Jones, M. Breida, Ito Smith
WR: OBJ, D. Adams, Tyreek Hill, Kenny Golladay, Tyler Boyd, Tyrell Williams, Antonio Callaway, Justin Watson, Preston Williams, Trey Quinn
TE: D. Waller, H. Henry, Jonnu Smith, Chris Herndon

Team 2 :14 Team SF
QB: Mahomes, Trubisky, Josh Allen, Daniel Jones
RB: Dalvin Cook, James Conner, Chris Carson, Aaron Jones, Devin Singletary
WR: D. Adams, JuJu, Golladay, Trey Quinn, Justin Watson, Preston Williams
TE: Kittle, Njoku, Herndon

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby territdown33 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 6:43 pm

Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:18 am
TheNuts wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:49 am
Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:27 am
We obviously disagree and I hope I'm wrong - but there are far too many red flags to ignore. Why they would give him this kind of extension with such a small sample size is beyond me.

TEs in the Raiders get a 39% target share - the 2nd highest amount in the league. That's not going to maintain when they get receivers.
Considering how well Jared Cook produced in last years Raiders offense, I would say this is one of the best spots for a tight end, and one of the most likely to produce a consistent TE1
Again, still no receivers worth a damn. The TEs are such a main focus because there is no one else to throw to. Let's see if that maintains when they add more talent, or I guess if?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, any player will produce if they get the targets.

People are prematurely crowning this guy is my point. He's now the 4th highest paid TE in the league based on AAV and we are talking about him being a consistent TE1 from a 5 game sample size? Really? If he gets hurt next week I wouldn't be surprised if his replacement put up similar numbers.

Again, I said that it's great for fantasy but a poor real life move.
Wasn’t Amari Cooper there for 1/3 of the season, when Cook was tearing it up last year. WR talent doesn’t get much better than that.

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby Phaded » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:18 pm

Cooper wasn't the same guy he is now.
Do you want a logical debate?
You are in the wrong place.

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:22 pm

Phaded wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:18 pm
Cooper wasn't the same guy he is now.
Yeah, Coop was lost. He needed that trade for a fresh start. If he was playing even close to the way he is now, they would not have traded him.
DLF Early Birds Special/ Year 1 (16 Team SuperFlex 25 man roster Start 10)

Record: 20-5

Wentz, Stafford. Driskel
Chubb, Cook, Carson, Breida, Ekeler, Penny, James White, Sproles
Evans, Sutton, Woods, Agholor, Sanu, Higgins, D Robinson, T Taylor
Kittle, Olsen, McDonald, Ian Thomas, Clay

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby StegosaurusRex » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:28 pm

FantasyFreak wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:22 pm
Phaded wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:18 pm
Cooper wasn't the same guy he is now.
Yeah, Coop was lost. He needed that trade for a fresh start. If he was playing even close to the way he is now, they would not have traded him.
He may have been lost but he was still the same player, evident by his immediate production once traded in what was probably his best stretch as a pro to date. I can understand not buying into Waller 100% yet as the sample size is small, but this type of thinking seems deliberately contrary rather than realistic. If anything Cook’s production with Amari there proves Carr’s over reliance on TEs which may explain the new Waller contract
12-Player 0.5pt PPR 12 Man Keeper League
QB-2RB-3WR-TE-FLEX-K-DEF
--------
Allen
Chubb, Carson, Hunt, Burkhead, Ito Smith, Darwin Thompson, Mark Walton, Benny Snell
Nuk, Watkins, TY, DJ Moore, Chark, Westbrook, M. Williams, Cole Beasley
Waller, Knox
--------

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby FantasyFreak » Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:40 pm

StegosaurusRex wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:28 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:22 pm
Phaded wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 7:18 pm
Cooper wasn't the same guy he is now.
Yeah, Coop was lost. He needed that trade for a fresh start. If he was playing even close to the way he is now, they would not have traded him.
He may have been lost but he was still the same player, evident by his immediate production once traded in what was probably his best stretch as a pro to date. I can understand not buying into Waller 100% yet as the sample size is small, but this type of thinking seems deliberately contrary rather than realistic. If anything Cook’s production with Amari there proves Carr’s over reliance on TEs which may explain the new Waller contract
Carr was using the WR's heavily when he had Crabtree and Cooper. I have watched almost every Raiders game for years. Carr looks to exploit mismatches. When he had Crabs/Coop and only a guy like Clive Walford at TE, he was targeting the mismatch at WR (which each game would often be different between Coop and Crab) way more. There were certain games where Coop just went invisible after Crabtree left, and the year before when Crabtree lost a step. Carr targeted Cook last year, and Waller this year because he is the most obvious mismatch. When Carr has talent at WR that is winning, he uses it. The OL also had a lot to do with Carr targeting the TE more last year, though. He simply didn't have the time to wait for the WR's routes to develop very often, and when he did they were covered most of the time.

The other issue with Coop was he didn't have Zeke to make it easier for him in Oakland. Teams were shifting coverage to take Cooper out of the game a lot before his departure from Oakland.
DLF Early Birds Special/ Year 1 (16 Team SuperFlex 25 man roster Start 10)

Record: 20-5

Wentz, Stafford. Driskel
Chubb, Cook, Carson, Breida, Ekeler, Penny, James White, Sproles
Evans, Sutton, Woods, Agholor, Sanu, Higgins, D Robinson, T Taylor
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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby Krypto_King » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:14 pm

Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:18 am
TheNuts wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:49 am
Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:27 am
We obviously disagree and I hope I'm wrong - but there are far too many red flags to ignore. Why they would give him this kind of extension with such a small sample size is beyond me.

TEs in the Raiders get a 39% target share - the 2nd highest amount in the league. That's not going to maintain when they get receivers.
Considering how well Jared Cook produced in last years Raiders offense, I would say this is one of the best spots for a tight end, and one of the most likely to produce a consistent TE1

I've said it before and I'll say it again, any player will produce if they get the targets.
other than Zay Jones

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby IZigUZag » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:50 pm

notweswelker wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:52 am
You're in the Waller thread after his breakout and big extension trying to hype a blocking TE that you're expecting to hit in 2021?

Smugness personified.

Overview
Moreau is a feisty, committed run-blocking tackle with solid technique and footwork to find proper angles in-line or on the move. He's tough enough to battle at the point of attack, but at his best when he's a lead blocker on iso, wham blocks, and outside zone with his ability to locate and land on second-level targets. He lacks finesse as a route-runner and is too content to be covered when matched up against a linebacker. While he's not dynamic, he should find work as a run-blocking option who can be moved around formations.
-Lance Zierlein
Oh, let's play the pre draft analysis game:

OVERALL

Foster Moreau is one of our favorite all-around prospects and people in the 2019 draft class. He's tough as nails as a blocker and runner, with added upside as a receiver over the middle. If he finds himself in a scheme that values throwing to the tight end as well as blocking in the run game, Moreau will be a middle-round steal.



GRADE: 6.00 (ROUND 3 - ROOKIE IMPACT/FUTURE STARTER)

PRO COMPARISON: George Kittle

Using these pre draft scouting reports to determine limitations on rookies is a fools errand. We know that Moreau has the athleticism to compete at a high level in the NFL, the blocking ability to stay on the field regardless of down/distance/and situation, and is showing the ability to efficiently produce on the NFL field when given the opportunity early into his career. Whether he can take the next step and become a play-making difference maker remains to be seen... but your incessant need to box him in as a one dimensional blocker is short sighted.

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby themburns » Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:11 am

Considering there are more posts in this thread that mention Foster Moreau than he has NFL catches so far, he must have a very efficient publicist.
#1 Purestrain Pain (12 team ppr):
QB: Jackson/, R Wilsonn, K. Murray
RB: McCaffrey, Chubb, A. Jones, Carson, Penny, D. Henderson, L. Murray, Breida, Edmonds,
WR: Beckham, Michael Thomas, JuJu Smith-Schuster, A. Cooper, C. Kupp, C. Davis, McLaurin, Hamilton
TE: A. Hooper, Hunter Henry, Goedert, , D. Waller, Ebron


#2 Deceitful Harpies (12 team ppr):
QB: Mahomes, Mayfield
RB: Chubb, T. Gurley, Carson, Penny, R. Freeman, T. Johnson, Armstead
WR: K. Allen, Diggs, A. Robinson, Watkins, C. Davis, Fuller, Isabella, Agholor, C. Coleman, A. Dulin
TE: Ebron, TJ Hockenson, J. Smith
3 2020 1sts

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QB: Mahomes, Goff, Bortles
RB: D. Cook, Conner, J. Jacobs, K. Johnson, Walton, J Richard,
WR: M. Evans, DJ Chark A. Robinson, DK Metcalf, Watkins, J. Gordon, Agholor, J. Reynolds, K. Stills, P. Williams
TE: Kittle, D Waller, Herndon,
2 2020 1sts

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby ArrylT » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:19 am

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/raide ... well-spent

Either I was not aware or I forgot that Darren Waller played WR prior to TE - positional converts to TE can hit late if I recall correctly. Either way while I was surprised by how quick the extension came - at the cost I cannot really complain as it is pretty much in line with other TEs who got signed recently are getting (on a per year basis).
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby TheNuts » Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:23 am

ArrylT wrote:
Sat Oct 19, 2019 5:19 am
https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/raide ... well-spent

Either I was not aware or I forgot that Darren Waller played WR prior to TE - positional converts to TE can hit late if I recall correctly. Either way while I was surprised by how quick the extension came - at the cost I cannot really complain as it is pretty much in line with other TEs who got signed recently are getting (on a per year basis).
I'm actually not surprised because Gruden loved Waller going back to last year. Waller has proven to be an excellent receiver and he has proven the faith in him is justified

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby Cameron Giles » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:14 am

I agree partially with Phaded that Waller's value this year is bloated by the Raiders having very little WR talent. They have to throw to someone.

However, that's a similar reason why George Kittle produced last season: Goodwin missed games, Garcon missed games, Pettis was a rookie. They didn't have anyone else to really throw to. With that said, Kittle is an elite TE talent, even though he wasn't expected to be. So, the situation simply sped up the realization of that and he played to his ability. Because of that, the 49ers are still using him as the #1 and he is still grading out as the best TE in football.

The question you have to ask is Waller an elite TE talent? If he is, the Raiders will continue to prioritize him no matter who they bring in at WR. If he's not, he will fade like Jordan Cameron and Gary Barnidge once they do bring in more options.

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Re: Darren Waller...is he the real deal?

Postby azthecrow » Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:14 am

I hope he stays clean. If so, I see a very successful career ahead of him. He’s tough, talented, and determined.
A good combination


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