Benching JuJu Smith-Schuster

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby SteveMaddensShoes » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:11 pm

Like an earlier poster said, so much noise. smh.

I wonder sometimes why I come here. I don't have the skill set to evaluate players well, i'll be the first to admit that. But just listening to this thread makes me think the same about most of us. So much production talk without anyone offering any opinion on if he is open? is he being missed on passes? is he running the wrong routes? the right routes? is he being manhandled? Can he not beat double coverage? I literally don't know the answers to this, but 5 pages later I haven't heard an answer to any of these questions. Just production, production, production. Yeah, production is going to be pretty awful with Rudolph in there for now. That's not surprising in the least.

I haven't been able to watch near as much football this year, so I'd love to hear from people who have watched the steelers and Juju a decent amount to find out if he is still playing well and just not getting the targets or is he not deserving of the targets?
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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Phaded » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:13 pm

thebeast wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:09 am
Interesting this was his NFL scouting notes:

"Smith-Schuster will get dinged for his lack of speed and separation but he reminds me of Anquan Boldin with his strong hands, physical approach and ability to win the combat catches. JuJu is missing some of the speed traits teams want from their WR1, but he could become a high-volume, possession target with the size to win some 50/50 throws down the field. Teams who have a speed merchant at one spot would be wise to take a look at Smith-Schuster as a physical counterpart."

It sounds like exactly the situation he succeeded in last year and could point to trouble going forward. Juju is not Hopkins who had a single down year due to playing with what might actually be the worst QB in NFL history, but proved to be QB proof prior and after that stint with plenty of other replacement-level talent. Anyway, I don't a horse in this fight, I don't own him anywhere and I'm not looking to acquire at this point, but I think there is more here then "hey he'll be fine", I think owners are still in a good spot to get a return on him if they have any concerns.
This scouting analysis is pretty spot on for who JuJu is as a receiver. It is not to say that there is anything bad about a possession receiver, they absolutely have their role to play in the NFL and can be highly productive if given the volume, however in my opinion they do not have the elite upside.

JuJu was the 4th most targeted receiver in the league this year, AB was the 3rd most targeted receiver in the league. A lot of the argument in favour of JuJu when AB left was a lot of people falsely assuming that JuJu would get even more targets with AB gone. Expecting an improvement on 166 targets is a foolish projection.

His target count is down for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with Mason Rudolph. His target count is down because he is not getting open as frequently as he was last year.

JuJu is a fine, upcoming NFL receiver - but he is not an elite option. I get that everyone always wants to chase the next big young thing, but sometimes that young player just ends up being very good and not elite.

Again, those guys have their value and it's not like JuJu is worthless - but if you were one of those who took JuJu as a 1st round startup guy, you should be worried. JuJu screamed "overvalued" when you looked at his ADP, but it is largely due to the over-emphasis on age.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby moishetreats » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:22 pm

thebeast wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:09 am
Interesting this was his NFL scouting notes:

"Smith-Schuster will get dinged for his lack of speed and separation but he reminds me of Anquan Boldin with his strong hands, physical approach and ability to win the combat catches. JuJu is missing some of the speed traits teams want from their WR1, but he could become a high-volume, possession target with the size to win some 50/50 throws down the field. Teams who have a speed merchant at one spot would be wise to take a look at Smith-Schuster as a physical counterpart."

It sounds like exactly the situation he succeeded in last year and could point to trouble going forward. Juju is not Hopkins who had a single down year due to playing with what might actually be the worst QB in NFL history, but proved to be QB proof prior and after that stint with plenty of other replacement-level talent. Anyway, I don't a horse in this fight, I don't own him anywhere and I'm not looking to acquire at this point, but I think there is more here then "hey he'll be fine", I think owners are still in a good spot to get a return on him if they have any concerns.

I'm not sure that scouting reports define a player's career. We have enough evidence in the NFL already that we can use that as a more accurate reflection of his strengths and limitations than a report from a few years ago. For instance:

Player X is an extremely productive receiver from a relatively smaller level football program that could use another year in college to continue to develop physically. He is undersized and will initially struggle with the physical aspects of the game at the next level. He generally has lined up out of the slot and would have trouble with his release against some of the physical cornerbacks at the next level if he lines up on the line of scrimmage. He is explosive off the line and will show a good burst out of his speed cuts but needs work on his hard cuts and underneath routes. He has decent hands but it looks like the ball gets big on him at times and he traps too many passes in his body.


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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Goddard » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:28 pm

Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:13 pm

His target count is down for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with Mason Rudolph. His target count is down because he is not getting open as frequently as he was last year.
This just isn't true. In the two games Rudolph started, he's attempted 27 and 28 passes. Ben averaged over 40 pass attempts per game last year. And if anyone watched that game against Cincinnati, they'll tell you that the majority of those passes were dump offs to RBs. So if you don't think the lack of targets were because of Rudolph and the game plan and it's because Juju isn't getting open, there's no point in even having this discussion/argument.

Also, no ones mentioned his toe injury during the first game, which he apparently aggravated on Monday, as a cause to why he may be struggling some.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Sriracha » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:38 pm

Goddard wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:28 pm
Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:13 pm

His target count is down for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with Mason Rudolph. His target count is down because he is not getting open as frequently as he was last year.
This just isn't true. In the two games Rudolph started, he's attempted 27 and 28 passes. Ben averaged over 40 pass attempts per game last year. And if anyone watched that game against Cincinnati, they'll tell you that the majority of those passes were dump offs to RBs. So if you don't think the lack of targets were because of Rudolph and the game plan and it's because Juju isn't getting open, there's no point in even having this discussion/argument.

Also, no ones mentioned his toe injury during the first game, which he apparently aggravated on Monday, as a cause to why he may be struggling some.
While that conservative gameplan worked last week, they won't be playing the Bengals every week.

Sooner or later they're going to have to uncork Rudolph, and if at that point Juju is healthy and he still can't produce I'll begin to worry about his ability to be a true #1 in the NFL.

Until then... I see this as a huge overreaction. I honestly can't remember a single elite WR2 that couldn't cut it as a #1. Anyone got a precedence for this "elite Wr2 but can't cut it as a #1" narrative being spun here?

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby grandmabetty » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:46 pm

in case anyone was wondering I'm going to bench him in one league and start him in another. :D
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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Phaded » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:50 pm

Goddard wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:28 pm
Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:13 pm

His target count is down for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with Mason Rudolph. His target count is down because he is not getting open as frequently as he was last year.
This just isn't true. In the two games Rudolph started, he's attempted 27 and 28 passes. Ben averaged over 40 pass attempts per game last year. And if anyone watched that game against Cincinnati, they'll tell you that the majority of those passes were dump offs to RBs. So if you don't think the lack of targets were because of Rudolph and the game plan and it's because Juju isn't getting open, there's no point in even having this discussion/argument.
And Roethlisberger threw it 47 times in week one and JuJu "only" had 8 targets.
In games last year where Big Ben threw 47+ times, JuJu had 19, 11, 9, 10, 17 & 15 targets.

Now - the team is passing less because they do not have the best receiver in the game on their roster any more. They had two of the four most targeted receivers, that in itself is absurd. Sure, they have to gameplan for Rudolph being in but overlooking the AB factor is a big mistake as well.
Last edited by Phaded on Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Goddard » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:50 pm

IZigUZag wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:38 pm
Goddard wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:28 pm
Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:13 pm

His target count is down for one simple reason, and it has nothing to do with Mason Rudolph. His target count is down because he is not getting open as frequently as he was last year.
This just isn't true. In the two games Rudolph started, he's attempted 27 and 28 passes. Ben averaged over 40 pass attempts per game last year. And if anyone watched that game against Cincinnati, they'll tell you that the majority of those passes were dump offs to RBs. So if you don't think the lack of targets were because of Rudolph and the game plan and it's because Juju isn't getting open, there's no point in even having this discussion/argument.

Also, no ones mentioned his toe injury during the first game, which he apparently aggravated on Monday, as a cause to why he may be struggling some.
While that conservative gameplan worked last week, they won't be playing the Bengals every week.

Sooner or later they're going to have to uncork Rudolph, and if at that point Juju is healthy and he still can't produce I'll begin to worry about his ability to be a true #1 in the NFL.

Until then... I see this as a huge overreaction. I honestly can't remember a single elite WR2 that couldn't cut it as a #1. Anyone got a precedence for this "elite Wr2 but can't cut it as a #1" narrative being spun here?
I've been asking this same question, but I don't think anyone's come up with one yet.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Phaded » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:53 pm

On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Under The Bridge » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:01 pm

grandmabetty wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:50 am
Its time for me. JuJu is on my bench in at least one of my leagues and will likely stay there. At this rate I doubt he makes it to 80 catches this year. Just sad
Bench him for Larry Fitzgerald. I love me some Fitz in PPR.

But with that said, this is yet another classic example of why I really dislike full PPR. 0.5 is much better, and 0.33 or 0.25 is ideal.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Sriracha » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:04 pm

Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:53 pm
On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.
Deandre Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Davante Adams, Julio Jones... the list is long friend

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Goddard » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:06 pm

Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:53 pm
On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.
To be fair, not many WR2s have ever put up the type of numbers Juju has. I'm not going to go and look up WR2s that ended up being WR1s, but the one that comes to mind most recently is Michael Thomas. Cooks was considered the #1 on that team his rookie year and I can't remember if people said MT would struggle without him. I'm sure there were some, but obviously he's doing just fine as the #1.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Phaded » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:10 pm

IZigUZag wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:04 pm
Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:53 pm
On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.
Deandre Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Davante Adams, Julio Jones... the list is long friend
...lol, that's your list?
Okay, that tells me all I need to know about your stance.

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Sriracha » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:13 pm

Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:10 pm
IZigUZag wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:04 pm
Phaded wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:53 pm
On the flipside, go ahead and list the elite WR2s that did end up being an elite WR1?
I don't think that in itself is a long list either.

As recently as September, JuJu was being drafted as the #6 overall asset and the #2 overall WR.
Again, those are the people that need to be worried.
Deandre Hopkins, Michael Thomas, Davante Adams, Julio Jones... the list is long friend
...lol, that's your list?
Okay, that tells me all I need to know about your stance.
Most WR1's were WR2s at some point; and the ones that emerged as elite were prolific in that role.

Davante Adams was behind Jordy Nelson, Julio Jones was behind Roddy White, Michael Thomas was behind Brandin Cooks, Deandre Hopkins was behind Andre Johnson.

If you're productive as a WR, you're just a good WR. It's not as if all or even most WR's across from Julio, Calvin Johnson etc saw much success.

If you want to poke holes at my logic, I'd be interested in hearing your arguments instead of a snarky response where you contribute nothing to the discussion ;)

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Re: Benching JuJu

Postby Phaded » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:17 pm

Adams was in the league for four years before he even put up his first 1000 yard season, I'm not sure he was ever even considered an elite WR2. I certainly wouldn't even call him an elite WR1 at this point.

Michael Thomas took over and out-targeted Cooks from the get-go.

The Falcons did not trade the farm to move up and grab Julio @ #4 to be a WR2 on their team.

It sounds like we may have different definitions of WR2 versus succession.

All of these other guys exploded when given the chance to be the #1. JuJu has not.
The biggest difference when the other guys became their WR1 is that they saw an uptick in targets that helped elevate them to that point.

JuJu is basically the equivalent of Jarvis Landry from a production/talent standpoint.
The point is - all teams have a WR who is going to be fed targets, the difference is whether you turn that volume into elite production or if your production is primarily volume based. Being fed targets does not automatically mean you're elite, it's the same default logic that causes people to chase the Terrelle Pryors of the world.

Targets = production, no matter who you are. The point is, a guy like JuJu is not the world beating talent that is going to hold off someone from usurping him.

Here's a question for you - is he your dynasty WR2?
Again, I'm not saying JuJu is BAD - but he's not the high end WR1 he is being valued as.


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