You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby Phaded » Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:51 am

I continue to get lowball offers for him.
I was just offered Jamison Crowder for him.
No thanks, lol.

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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby Pullo Vision » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:04 am

dlf_mikeh wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:59 am
He's been successful in power plays, which isn't only the majority of his successful plays, it's almost 100% of them (he ran 1 good zone play in the 4th quarter 2 games ago). His success is purely the result of coaching & game-planning. Until he shows that he can run zone and find cutback lanes, I want no part of him.
That's a load of hogwash. Few players can prosper equally well in all schemes- that was one of the concerns with Lev Bell in FA, that he'd end up on more of a power run team. RoJo deserves kudos for actually performing well, not bashing for not doing well across all blocking schemes.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby Phaded » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:26 am

I've learned that it is hard to take him seriously when it comes to RoJo, he clearly has a very biased hatred toward him.

All players benefit from coaching and game-planning. Look at even elite prospects like Todd Gurley and how much of a difference it made with coaching/game-plan changes after Fisher left.

So a coaching staff utilizing the strengths of a player is somehow a negative on that player, right?

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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby dlf_mikeh » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:34 am

Phaded wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:26 am
I've learned that it is hard to take him seriously when it comes to RoJo, he clearly has a very biased hatred toward him.
It's not biased. It's the truth. All of the top RBs in fantasy have a great ability in zone schemes and finding lanes. Literally every one. I can't even think of a top back that doesn't. Perhaps some RBs run more power than zone (Carson), but all of those top guys run a good amount of zone plays successfully. RoJo cannot.

RoJo has great speed and power that I've rarely seen. His ability to use quick moves puts him in the top 5% of all RBs. He has all the talent in the world. I just need to see him learn how to play more than just power. That and blitz recognition/assignments. It's been 1.5 years and little-to-no improvement has been made.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby dlf_mikeh » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:41 am

Grrt wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:48 am
I'm in a rebuild and traded rojo and deion jones to a contender for Preston williams and David njoku in my TE premium league.
That is..... ridiculously good. Even if RoJo becomes a start-able weekly back, this is still a good deal if Williams keeps performing the way he has in 2020.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby dlf_mikeh » Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:47 am

Pullo Vision wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:04 am
That's a load of hogwash. Few players can prosper equally well in all schemes- that was one of the concerns with Lev Bell in FA, that he'd end up on more of a power run team. RoJo deserves kudos for actually performing well, not bashing for not doing well across all blocking schemes.
We're kind of saying the same thing here, but I think it's a negative and you think it's a positive. I underlined the important part. Teams run mostly power or mostly zone, but not only one or the other. You're happy that he's shown he's more-than-capable of running one type of scheme and that's all you need to have a favorable opinion of him. I can't argue that AND I agree with you. When he played against my beloved 49ers and he was running out of a power package, I was nervous every time lol.

In my eyes, RoJo needs to master both AND he needs to learn how to pass protect properly in order for me to feel the same way.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby Phaded » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:24 am

If the Bucs don't run a zone scheme, what does it matter if he cannot run in a zone scheme?

Most running backs need a particular scheme for success. Even a lot of the elite options are clearly better in one scheme than the other.

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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby dlf_mikeh » Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:41 am

Phaded wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:24 am
If the Bucs don't run a zone scheme, what does it matter if he cannot run in a zone scheme?
Well the Bucs do run zone. At the beginning of the year they were primarily a zone team. Now they seem to be more power. However, if you're a RB that can't run zone, that means teams know how to defend you since you're a one-dimensional runner. There's zero top RBs who can't run zone.

Trent Richardson was similar. He had great speed and power, great moves in the open field, but damn if he couldn't see anything, and that was ultimately his downfall. I hope RoJo doesn't turn into TRich, but the comparison is eerily similar. I think RoJo has far better lateral movement, FWIW.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby jenkins.math » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:25 am

dlf_mikeh wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:41 am
Phaded wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:24 am
If the Bucs don't run a zone scheme, what does it matter if he cannot run in a zone scheme?
Well the Bucs do run zone. At the beginning of the year they were primarily a zone team. Now they seem to be more power. However, if you're a RB that can't run zone, that means teams know how to defend you since you're a one-dimensional runner. There's zero top RBs who can't run zone.

Trent Richardson was similar. He had great speed and power, great moves in the open field, but damn if he couldn't see anything, and that was ultimately his downfall. I hope RoJo doesn't turn into TRich, but the comparison is eerily similar. I think RoJo has far better lateral movement, FWIW.
So a RB cant be successful or FF relevant if he cant run zone? Is that what are you saying? If so that seems to be awfully biased. Any good coach will develop a scheme to get the most out of his players, or will go and get guys that fit his scheme. Just 4 seasons ago DeMarco Murray led the AFC in rushing in a power man scheme in TN.

I can understand someone having a preference on scheme or a certain style of play especially one that has coached before like yourself. But saying an individual (or entire postion) can't be successful unless they succeed in a certain scheme is akin to the idea Lamar Jackson cant beat you consistently in the pocket so he should be moved to WR.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby Lumps » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:43 am

Also said it doesn't matter if you catch passes unless you're Cohen or CMC. That might be news to PPR owners, but there you have it.

I'm done looking at this nonsense that's gone on far too long.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby moishetreats » Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:46 am

dlf_mikeh wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:41 am
There's zero top RBs who can't run zone.
Would you mind clarifying what you mean by this? You've written something similar a few times. It seems like you're suggesting by this statement that Jones has close to no shot of becoming a top RB. And that that's an essential factor in your call to sell. Limited as a power-runner, he's not diverse enough to ever be elite. So, trade him.

If I'm reading that correctly, though, then it seems surprisingly binary: stud or bust. If that's your approach to RBs, then I get it (and I'm not suggesting that I disagree!). That would also explain why you are so adamant about selling Jones: he'll never be a stud.

For many, though, there's a middle ground: an RB2 / RB3 by production, if not by skill, with both upside and downside. That player has value, too, and it seems by your comments that you are focusing exclusively on the stud-or-bust approach to the exclusion of more intermediary forms of value.

So, would you mind clarifying? Am I off, close, on...?

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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby dlf_mikeh » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:13 pm

jenkins.math wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:25 am
So a RB cant be successful or FF relevant if he cant run zone? Is that what are you saying? If so that seems to be awfully biased.
That is sort of what I'm saying. I feel it's a strong flex play RB at best and flex RBs don't need to be great all-around, but that's not bias. I have bias towards Tyreek Hill & Dalvin Cook, where my critique of them will always be clouded with my personal feelings towards them. I like RoJo's skills and as a human being. Kid is great in interviews. I just need to see a full package of zone and blitz pickup ability before I buy in.
Just 4 seasons ago DeMarco Murray led the AFC in rushing in a power man scheme in TN.
Murray was able to run zone and power. He was a one-cut zone runner with his skills, similar to that of Lamar Miller and Arian Foster. TRich is the only back I can think of who was strictly a power runner and never developed into anything more.
Lumps wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:43 am
Also said it doesn't matter if you catch passes unless you're Cohen or CMC. That might be news to PPR owners, but there you have it.
Out of context and not what I said. I said pass catching doesn't matter TO ME unless that's your job or if you're supplementing your running abilities. That was completely opinionated and meant for my views only. If someone said they wanted RoJo in their lineup because they are satisfied with what he can do out of the backfield based on what they've seen, then I have no argument for that.
moishetreats wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:46 am
dlf_mikeh wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:41 am
There's zero top RBs who can't run zone.
Would you mind clarifying what you mean by this? You've written something similar a few times. It seems like you're suggesting by this statement that Jones has close to no shot of becoming a top RB.
I wouldn't say he has "no shot". He actually has some amazing power abilities imo. I'd like to see a full package RB because otherwise you're one dimensional. It's been 1.5 years and he hasn't shown any improvement and that's disappointing. This also includes his inability to pass block, and I hate the fact that he carries the ball in the same hand every play.

I think the coaching staff he has this year is exactly what he needs to help him become successful, but until I see it, I'm not buying in.
If I'm reading that correctly, though, then it seems surprisingly binary: stud or bust. If that's your approach to RBs, then I get it (and I'm not suggesting that I disagree!). That would also explain why you are so adamant about selling Jones: he'll never be a stud.
Yes I am a very "stud or bust" owner, especially for these young guys. I want guys who have the ability to get you 40 points a game a few times a year. But beyond that, I wouldn't be shocked if RoJo isn't a starter in two years time.
For many, though, there's a middle ground: an RB2 / RB3 by production, if not by skill, with both upside and downside. That player has value, too, and it seems by your comments that you are focusing exclusively on the stud-or-bust approach to the exclusion of more intermediary forms of value.

So, would you mind clarifying? Am I off, close, on...?
You are mostly correct. I'm focusing mostly on the bust potential of RoJo. If he picks up the zone to my liking and becomes a solid RB2, I'd gladly leave him alone and admit defeat. FWIW I do hope I am wrong, but as I type this, the Bucs went with Peyton Barber on their goal-to-go downs. Why choose him over RoJo? I dunno.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby moishetreats » Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:18 pm

@dlf_mikeh: Thank you for replies!
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby Pullo Vision » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:39 am

dlf_mikeh wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:47 am
Pullo Vision wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 9:04 am
That's a load of hogwash. Few players can prosper equally well in all schemes- that was one of the concerns with Lev Bell in FA, that he'd end up on more of a power run team. RoJo deserves kudos for actually performing well, not bashing for not doing well across all blocking schemes.
We're kind of saying the same thing here, but I think it's a negative and you think it's a positive. I underlined the important part. Teams run mostly power or mostly zone, but not only one or the other. You're happy that he's shown he's more-than-capable of running one type of scheme and that's all you need to have a favorable opinion of him. I can't argue that AND I agree with you. When he played against my beloved 49ers and he was running out of a power package, I was nervous every time lol.

In my eyes, RoJo needs to master both AND he needs to learn how to pass protect properly in order for me to feel the same way.
I don't have a favorable opinion of his skill set as it currently stands, but I do have a favorable view on his improvement.. I don't assume this is the end of his improvement.

Your response later showed how much you focus on whether a player can be elite. I'm fine with that, but I personally accept that not all players will be elite, either from an NFL skillset or fantasy production/performance. Henry has a limited skill set but has been an elite producer. Lindsay has a more well rounded skill set, but his size limitations limit his touch count and hence production.

I personally focus on a RB's ability to stand in on 3rd down, whether pass blocking or pass catching. You only get points for one of those, but at least you're on the field. There's no way you can get points standing on the sidelines.

Pre draft, I had questions about Jones' inability to earn 3rd down snaps. From that start point, Jones' ability to rack up catches in on game is a good development. I had previously dismissed him as a long term fantasy option, but his improvements suggest I need to reconsider that stance.
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Re: You Can Trade Away RoJo Now... Last Chance?

Postby Gtdano_14 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:30 am

Two days and no update!? Where’s my reading material???

For or against him, still sucking at pass pro nearly 2 years in.... not a great outlook while there’s an old school coach around.
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RB- D. Cook, J. Jacobs, D. Freeman, J. McKinnon, D. Johnson, B. Scarbrough, Jo. Williams, A. Collins, I. Smith, B. Hill, R. Armstead, M. Boone
WR- J. Smith-Schuster, T. Boyd, K.Stills, C. Sutton, M. Brown, S. Miller, J. Watson, J. Doctson, Dez
TE- G. Kittle, C. Herndon, B. Watson
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