You should probably sell George Kittle

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Cameron Giles
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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Cameron Giles » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:12 am

FantasyFreak wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:52 am Posted this in the injury thread. I actually dragged up the Kitltle thread last week, made a post about how he's not in the elite TE tier any more, and the sell window is closing fast. I made a long paragraph about it, then deleted it, for some reason. Still feel that way, and it may be too late. I traded him everywhere this off season. He's not getting targeted like Kelce or Waller, has a murky situation with QB's, gets hurt too often, and his HC/OC just doesn't feature him. He's in the tier of everybody else below Kelce and Waller, with Andrews, Hock etc. That's the truth. I saw this coming all off season, and got out. Hope others did too.

Didn't want to be negative, I think, that's why I deleted my post, but it would have definitely been apt at this point. When Kittle gets back off IR, if you can play any sort of trade to a contender, at the time, to get his value from the off season, do it. He's just not an elite asset at all. He's a falling knife in value. Get out if you can get anything close to elite value.
I'll play devil's advocate:

- Kittle is 85-95% of what Gronk is as a career trajectory right now: Extremely productive when healthy, but plays such a fearless and physical style of ball, that he misses games. This could be good or bad, depending on what you look for, but Kittle is still an elite TE asset. I'd argue that he's a buy right now, because at bare minimum, I'm getting someone who has the upside to have big games.

- Waller in his last 3 games has less targets than Kittle. Kittle and Waller have both been beneficiaries of teams who had middling WRs, so they were targeted more often. As those pieces have improved, they have been targeted less. Worth considering before touting targets as a reason to bail. It's difficult for TEs to sustain a role as the #1 option, because it would require them being better than the WRs who run more routes and are the primary reads most of the time. This is probably a better reason to sell in redraft.

- Either way, Kittle is averaging 7 targets a game, which isn't nothing. Only Hockenson (7.5), Kelce (8), and Waller (10) average more. And Waller's is bloated by a 19 target game.

- I would disagree that Kittle isn't featured. He's 2nd on the team in targets and nobody after that is particularly close. Because of his value as an elite blocker, they aren't going to send him out on passing routes on every single dropback. He doesn't need to be the #1 guy to be "featured."

Kittle is still an elite TE asset, because the position is still a wasteland of uncertainty. Dalton Schultz is currently a Top-5 TE in points right now and more useful than OJ Howard, Evan Engram, David Njoku, and the other TEs in that class who were supposed to change that position.

I'd love to buy Kittle, but I'd be hesitant to sell, because the upside is still there and the position is extremely shallow.

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Ice » Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 am

Kittle was a stud in the 2019 window. I offered a high 2nd for him early this year and was rejected. I sure wouldn't offer a 1st for him any longer.

He is good but in reality he is looking like just another guy in a growing list of good TE's around the league.
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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Cameron Giles » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:54 am

Ice wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 am Kittle was a stud in the 2019 window. I offered a high 2nd for him early this year and was rejected. I sure wouldn't offer a 1st for him any longer.

He is good but in reality he is looking like just another guy in a growing list of good TE's around the league.
How is Kittle a JAG?

Here are the Top 12 scoring leaders heading into Week 5:

Kelce
Gronk
Waller
Knox
Schultz
Hockenson
Goedert
Fant
Uzomah
Andrews
Gesicki
Ju. Johnson

How many of these TEs would you actually consider good and on the level of Kittle? I see 3.

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Anteaters » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:31 pm

Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:54 am How many of these TEs would you actually consider good and on the level of Kittle? I see 3.
The issue isn't talent. Not many people are doubting that Kittle has talent. The issue for me is what coach Herm always preaches: AVAILABILITY. Kittle is in his 5th season and has only played in every game 1 time. In 2020 he missed half the season. This year, he's already on IR and it's only week 5. Injuries are like compound interest ... it just keeps piling up. Players don't usually start careers with 5 injury plagued seasons and follow up with 5 completely healthy seasons.

My biggest worry about Kittles (not my only, but my biggest) is he will never be healthy enough to be worth the price I have to pay for him.

By comparison:
Gesicki has missed 1 game in 4 seasons.
Goedert has missed 6 in 4 seasons
Fant has missed 1 in 3 seasons
Kelce has missed 1 in the last 8 seasons
Waller has missed zero in the 3 seasons since he ascended
Logan T has missed 8 in the past 5 seasons
Andrews has missed 3 in 4 seasons.

And so it goes.

I like Kittle, but I'd want any of those guys ahead of him, because I can trust them to be healthy.
TEAM 1:
12 Team ppr w/20 keepers - start 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1FLX 6IDP 1DEF
QB: Tua, Lamar, Levis
RB: Etienne, Pacheco, JavonteWms, JFord, CEH
WR: Lamb, JChase, Waddle, Pickens, MWilliams, Q Johnston
TE: Goedert, Friermuth
DEF: Cowboys, Ravens
IDP:(LB) Bolton, Greenlaw; (DE/DL) ZCollins, BJHill; (S/CB) Pitre, Bates, Witherspoon
2023 & 2022 Champion: 2020 third place: 2019 Champion

TEAM 2:
14 Team 30roster SF/ppr/TEP - QB/RB/WR/TE/5FLX/SF
QB: Tua, CJStroud, Carr, AOC, MWhite, Lock
RB: Etienne, Stevenson, GusE, AJD, Singletary, CEH, Spiller
WR: Amon-Ra, Kirk, Dell, Thielen, Gallup, Ch Jones
TE: Andrews, Waller, Taysom, Smythe, WMallory, JOliver
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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Cameron Giles » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:39 pm

Anteaters wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:31 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:54 am How many of these TEs would you actually consider good and on the level of Kittle? I see 3.
The issue isn't talent. Not many people are doubting that Kittle has talent. The issue for me is what coach Herm always preaches: AVAILABILITY. Kittle is in his 5th season and has only played in every game 1 time. In 2020 he missed half the season. This year, he's already on IR and it's only week 5. Injuries are like compound interest ... it just keeps piling up. Players don't usually start careers with 5 injury plagued seasons and follow up with 5 completely healthy seasons.

My biggest worry about Kittles (not my only, but my biggest) is he will never be healthy enough to be worth the price I have to pay for him.

By comparison:
Gesicki has missed 1 game in 4 seasons.
Goedert has missed 6 in 4 seasons
Fant has missed 1 in 3 seasons
Kelce has missed 1 in the last 8 seasons
Waller has missed zero in the 3 seasons since he ascended
Logan T has missed 8 in the past 5 seasons
Andrews has missed 3 in 4 seasons.

And so it goes.

I like Kittle, but I'd want any of those guys ahead of him, because I can trust them to be healthy.
Injuries are a concern, which is why I mentioned above that he's largely the fantasy asset that Rob Gronkowski was. Kittle only missed 3 games in his first 3 seasons and now has missed at least 8 in his past two.

I would gladly trade Logan Thomas, Dallas Goedert, and Mike Gesicki for Kittle, simply because Kittle has more upside and is better. None of those players have ever produced elite seasons and their production is merely fine or adequate. I raise my ceiling and I can find adequate backups to fill in if Kittle misses time. Win win.

If the dropoff in productivity for more certainty in availability is desirable, then I would gladly take advantage as a buyer.

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Anteaters » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:03 pm

Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:39 pmIf the dropoff in productivity for more certainty in availability is desirable, then I would gladly take advantage as a buyer.
But that's the issue. Kittle's price is that of an elite player. We're not talking about the same price for all these players.

If I need a TE, let's say I had Gronk as my starter and no one else. I put feelers out. 5 owners hit me back: Kittle, Gesicki, Waller, Fant, Thomas.

Looking at dynasty trade value charts, Kittle and Waller are virtually even. That's a joke for me. If the price is the same, I'm taking Waller every time.

Kittle costs 33% more than Fant. Through the first 4 games, Fant has outscored Kittle. And that's without accounting for Kittle's new injury. Easy choice for Fant here.

Kittle costs 100% more than Thomas and Gesicki. Through 4 games this season, Gesicki is scoring 0.1 less than Kittle, and his injury history is pristine. Thomas is actually scoring more than Kittle per game. So if I can get one of these guys for a late 2nd, but Kittle will cost me a mid 1st, I'm taking the guys not named Kittle.

I guess the big question is not whether Kittlemen and KittleAvoiders disagree about his talent. The question is what is the difference in valuation? I don't hate Kittles. I think he's very talented. I just don't want to waste assets to acquire him and watch him sit on my bench for half the season.

Honest question: What do you think Kittle is worth in trade value? For me, it's less than a 1st.
TEAM 1:
12 Team ppr w/20 keepers - start 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1FLX 6IDP 1DEF
QB: Tua, Lamar, Levis
RB: Etienne, Pacheco, JavonteWms, JFord, CEH
WR: Lamb, JChase, Waddle, Pickens, MWilliams, Q Johnston
TE: Goedert, Friermuth
DEF: Cowboys, Ravens
IDP:(LB) Bolton, Greenlaw; (DE/DL) ZCollins, BJHill; (S/CB) Pitre, Bates, Witherspoon
2023 & 2022 Champion: 2020 third place: 2019 Champion

TEAM 2:
14 Team 30roster SF/ppr/TEP - QB/RB/WR/TE/5FLX/SF
QB: Tua, CJStroud, Carr, AOC, MWhite, Lock
RB: Etienne, Stevenson, GusE, AJD, Singletary, CEH, Spiller
WR: Amon-Ra, Kirk, Dell, Thielen, Gallup, Ch Jones
TE: Andrews, Waller, Taysom, Smythe, WMallory, JOliver
2023 semifinals loser

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Cameron Giles » Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:10 pm

Anteaters wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:03 pm
Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:39 pmIf the dropoff in productivity for more certainty in availability is desirable, then I would gladly take advantage as a buyer.
But that's the issue. Kittle's price is that of an elite player. We're not talking about the same price for all these players.

If I need a TE, let's say I had Gronk as my starter and no one else. I put feelers out. 5 owners hit me back: Kittle, Gesicki, Waller, Fant, Thomas.

Looking at dynasty trade value charts, Kittle and Waller are virtually even. That's a joke for me. If the price is the same, I'm taking Waller every time.

Kittle costs 33% more than Fant. Through the first 4 games, Fant has outscored Kittle. And that's without accounting for Kittle's new injury. Easy choice for Fant here.

Kittle costs 100% more than Thomas and Gesicki. Through 4 games this season, Gesicki is scoring 0.1 less than Kittle, and his injury history is pristine. Thomas is actually scoring more than Kittle per game. So if I can get one of these guys for a late 2nd, but Kittle will cost me a mid 1st, I'm taking the guys not named Kittle.

I guess the big question is not whether Kittlemen and KittleAvoiders disagree about his talent. The question is what is the difference in valuation? I don't hate Kittles. I think he's very talented. I just don't want to waste assets to acquire him and watch him sit on my bench for half the season.

Honest question: What do you think Kittle is worth in trade value? For me, it's less than a 1st.
If I could spend less than a 1st and get a TE who is capable of having elite seasons and posting high-end TE numbers, then why wouldn't I do it?

I just don't think that value is accurate. The TE position still sucks and Kittle at his best is a difference maker, even if the injuries are frustrating. If what people are saying in this thread is truthful, then everyone should be buying right now.

His use isn't the issue. Like I said, only 3 TEs are averaging more targets per game. The points aren't there, but there were signs pointing to them coming before the injury.

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Ice » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:37 pm

Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:54 am
Ice wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:07 am Kittle was a stud in the 2019 window. I offered a high 2nd for him early this year and was rejected. I sure wouldn't offer a 1st for him any longer.

He is good but in reality he is looking like just another guy in a growing list of good TE's around the league.
How is Kittle a JAG?
.......
How many of these TEs would you actually consider good and on the level of Kittle? I see 3.
No doubt Kittle has talent but he simply can't stay on the field and really isn't much of a TD threat when he is in the game. We can blame scheme or a lot of things I guess but I now value him as 2nd round talent with upside. I don't see a first round player any longer in their system.

He is now in his 5th season and his only 2 1000 yard seasons were in 2018 and 2019. His rookie year he had 515 yards, in 2020 he had 634 and this year before his injury he has 227 yards.

During his 4 plus year career he has a total of 14 TD's and 10 of those were 5 per year in 2018 and 2019.

Through week 4 he averaged just over 10 points per game basically tied with Mike Gesicki for 10th / 11th and in a group of 5 averaging less than 11 points per fantasy contest.

I like his talent, worried about his ability to stay healthy given he played 8 last year and will be lucky to play many more than that this year. I also don't like his utilization.

I picked up Shultz as an example to pair with Knox in one league and wouldn't trade either away to get Kittle these days.

He was great in 2018 and 2019. He simply hasn't kept pace with the big boys. Last year in the 7 games he played in the fantasy season he had 3 single digit games 4 good games with one of them being a great game in week 4. More than 1/2 his season points came in 2 of those 7 contests.

His production last season along with only 14 career TD's, injury, and scheme made me drop his valuation heading into the season.

I don't blame those that are holding out thinking he will be a stud again but I think a first round pick is an overpay given the weapons that are developing in San Fransisco.

He may not be a JAG but he is has been playing like one YTD given 2 of 4 games were under 10 and the other 2 were under 20.
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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Valhalla » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:37 pm

Ice wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:37 pm
He is now in his 5th season and his only 2 1000 yard seasons were in 2018 and 2019. His rookie year he had 515 yards, in 2020 he had 634 and this year before his injury he has 227 yards.
You realize it’s quite uncommon for TEs to have 1000 yard season…
Kittle held the record for yards for a year (Kelce broke it).

His rookie year, that whole offense was just bad. Bad passing game, with the majority of the season coming through Beathard and Hoyer. The team totaled 15 passing TDs that season…and Kittle wasn’t the starting TE immediately as he was a rookie. Started 7 games. I’m those circumstances, I’m not sure how you hate on 515 yards.

His second year…record breaking. Moving on.

His third year, another 1000 and close to the same pace as his 1300 yard season (missed a couple games). A yawn to you I guess?

Fourth year, he plays a little less than half the season and gets 634 yards…on pace for nearly another 1300 yards. Man this guy just cannot seem to impress me.

I guess you’re right. He’s no better than any of the other guys out there.

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Anteaters » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:13 am

Cameron Giles wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:10 pm
Anteaters wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 1:03 pm Honest question: What do you think Kittle is worth in trade value? For me, it's less than a 1st.
If I could spend less than a 1st and get a TE who is capable of having elite seasons and posting high-end TE numbers, then why wouldn't I do it?
The question isn't "would you pay what I think Kittle is worth?". The question is, "what do you think Kittle is worth?"

For instance, you disagree with me that Kittle is no better than a 2nd round value. I assume that means you'd trade more for Kittle.

Would you trade a random 1st? Would it have to be a late 1st? Would you be okay with trading a mid-1st? What if the Kittle owner asked for a 1st+2nd?

What's the most you'd trade to acquire Kittle today?
TEAM 1:
12 Team ppr w/20 keepers - start 1QB 2RB 3WR 1TE 1FLX 6IDP 1DEF
QB: Tua, Lamar, Levis
RB: Etienne, Pacheco, JavonteWms, JFord, CEH
WR: Lamb, JChase, Waddle, Pickens, MWilliams, Q Johnston
TE: Goedert, Friermuth
DEF: Cowboys, Ravens
IDP:(LB) Bolton, Greenlaw; (DE/DL) ZCollins, BJHill; (S/CB) Pitre, Bates, Witherspoon
2023 & 2022 Champion: 2020 third place: 2019 Champion

TEAM 2:
14 Team 30roster SF/ppr/TEP - QB/RB/WR/TE/5FLX/SF
QB: Tua, CJStroud, Carr, AOC, MWhite, Lock
RB: Etienne, Stevenson, GusE, AJD, Singletary, CEH, Spiller
WR: Amon-Ra, Kirk, Dell, Thielen, Gallup, Ch Jones
TE: Andrews, Waller, Taysom, Smythe, WMallory, JOliver
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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Ice » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:18 am

Valhalla wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:37 pm
Ice wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:37 pm
He is now in his 5th season and his only 2 1000 yard seasons were in 2018 and 2019. His rookie year he had 515 yards, in 2020 he had 634 and this year before his injury he has 227 yards.
You realize it’s quite uncommon for TEs to have 1000 yard season…
Kittle held the record for yards for a year (Kelce broke it).

His rookie year, that whole offense was just bad. Bad passing game, with the majority of the season coming through Beathard and Hoyer. The team totaled 15 passing TDs that season…and Kittle wasn’t the starting TE immediately as he was a rookie. Started 7 games. I’m those circumstances, I’m not sure how you hate on 515 yards.

His second year…record breaking. Moving on.

His third year, another 1000 and close to the same pace as his 1300 yard season (missed a couple games). A yawn to you I guess?

Fourth year, he plays a little less than half the season and gets 634 yards…on pace for nearly another 1300 yards. Man this guy just cannot seem to impress me.

I guess you’re right. He’s no better than any of the other guys out there.
Yes and you do realize you're making my point. :biggrin:

Like his heart but do not think he has the body type to play a Gronk type game at the position. This position is changing. Kelce and Waller are now leading the way with Pitts and a few others coming on.

Again, many will continue value Kittle highly which is fine and I tried to buy him for a 2nd at the start of the season and was rejected and scoffed at by his owner but then again.......The fact I tried to buy him should indicate I don't hate him... 8-)
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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Intoodeep » Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:58 am

Ice wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:18 am
Valhalla wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:37 pm
Ice wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:37 pm
He is now in his 5th season and his only 2 1000 yard seasons were in 2018 and 2019. His rookie year he had 515 yards, in 2020 he had 634 and this year before his injury he has 227 yards.
You realize it’s quite uncommon for TEs to have 1000 yard season…
Kittle held the record for yards for a year (Kelce broke it).

His rookie year, that whole offense was just bad. Bad passing game, with the majority of the season coming through Beathard and Hoyer. The team totaled 15 passing TDs that season…and Kittle wasn’t the starting TE immediately as he was a rookie. Started 7 games. I’m those circumstances, I’m not sure how you hate on 515 yards.

His second year…record breaking. Moving on.

His third year, another 1000 and close to the same pace as his 1300 yard season (missed a couple games). A yawn to you I guess?

Fourth year, he plays a little less than half the season and gets 634 yards…on pace for nearly another 1300 yards. Man this guy just cannot seem to impress me.

I guess you’re right. He’s no better than any of the other guys out there.
Yes and you do realize you're making my point. :biggrin:

Like his heart but do not think he has the body type to play a Gronk type game at the position. This position is changing. Kelce and Waller are now leading the way with Pitts and a few others coming on.

Again, many will continue value Kittle highly which is fine and I tried to buy him for a 2nd at the start of the season and was rejected and scoffed at by his owner but then again.......The fact I tried to buy him should indicate I don't hate him... 8-)
I think your last comment is a bit disingenuous. Dynasty and FF in general is more about value than players you like. Acquiring a dynasty TE for a 2nd round pick is a major steal, even if you think he will never replicate those numbers due to his body holding up. You could have immediately tripled your value had you flipped him.
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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby sloth8u » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:27 am

Intoodeep wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:58 am I think your last comment is a bit disingenuous. Dynasty and FF in general is more about value than players you like. Acquiring a dynasty TE for a 2nd round pick is a major steal, even if you think he will never replicate those numbers due to his body holding up. You could have immediately tripled your value had you flipped him.
I think he pretty much summed it up with his comment. Your adding to proving his point. Kittle may or may not be elite and quite honestly....I'd hope you could get a 1st, but people aren't lining up to overpay for kittle. The position is deeper than most realize. With the young guys out there...kittle may not have the market some assume.

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby dynastyninja » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:10 am

sloth8u wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:27 am
Intoodeep wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:58 am I think your last comment is a bit disingenuous. Dynasty and FF in general is more about value than players you like. Acquiring a dynasty TE for a 2nd round pick is a major steal, even if you think he will never replicate those numbers due to his body holding up. You could have immediately tripled your value had you flipped him.
I think he pretty much summed it up with his comment. Your adding to proving his point. Kittle may or may not be elite and quite honestly....I'd hope you could get a 1st, but people aren't lining up to overpay for kittle. The position is deeper than most realize. With the young guys out there...kittle may not have the market some assume.
Maybe my judgement is clouded by the fact that I roster 7 TEs in one league without a single 10+ ppg guy, but I think it's just as shallow as it's ever been.

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Re: You should probably sell George Kittle

Postby Ice » Mon Oct 11, 2021 7:18 am

Intoodeep wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:58 am
Ice wrote: Mon Oct 11, 2021 5:18 am
Valhalla wrote: Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:37 pm

You realize it’s quite uncommon for TEs to have 1000 yard season…
Kittle held the record for yards for a year (Kelce broke it).

His rookie year, that whole offense was just bad. Bad passing game, with the majority of the season coming through Beathard and Hoyer. The team totaled 15 passing TDs that season…and Kittle wasn’t the starting TE immediately as he was a rookie. Started 7 games. I’m those circumstances, I’m not sure how you hate on 515 yards.

His second year…record breaking. Moving on.

His third year, another 1000 and close to the same pace as his 1300 yard season (missed a couple games). A yawn to you I guess?

Fourth year, he plays a little less than half the season and gets 634 yards…on pace for nearly another 1300 yards. Man this guy just cannot seem to impress me.

I guess you’re right. He’s no better than any of the other guys out there.
Yes and you do realize you're making my point. :biggrin:

Like his heart but do not think he has the body type to play a Gronk type game at the position. This position is changing. Kelce and Waller are now leading the way with Pitts and a few others coming on.

Again, many will continue value Kittle highly which is fine and I tried to buy him for a 2nd at the start of the season and was rejected and scoffed at by his owner but then again.......The fact I tried to buy him should indicate I don't hate him... 8-)
I think your last comment is a bit disingenuous. Dynasty and FF in general is more about value than players you like. Acquiring a dynasty TE for a 2nd round pick is a major steal, even if you think he will never replicate those numbers due to his body holding up. You could have immediately tripled your value had you flipped him.
I have been playing this crazy game well over 3 decades now and I can honestly say I have never bought an injured player for a late 1st or early 2nd and immediately tripled my value by flipping him.

I get an owner such as yourself may have an extremely high opinion of Kittle. I have no doubt his value is taking a hit and based on my valuation so it would be foolish for me to overpay for this player.

Value is relative It doesn't matter if I like or don't like a player.
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