Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby Phaded » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:49 am

Just to reiterate and for the record, I stated both that Sanders will be in a RBBC and that he will have fantasy value.
I feel like too many get too wrapped up in expectations and want every RB to be a workhorse, otherwise they do not have value.

While the majority of your top tier running backs obtain a ton of value from workhorse touches, unless you are playing in an insanely shallow league - the non workhorse guys can have value as well.

The Eagles coaching staff has produced uninspiring numbers thus far from their running backs up until this point, but the case could easily be made that they haven't had backs as talented as Sanders or even Howard.

I will again reiterate that I view him as a low-end RB2; but that isn't necessarily a bad thing for him, as long as he can consistently do it. I wouldn't touch Sanders at his ADP, but for those who don't have a choice - you just have to be realistic about what you are getting. It's not bellcow or bust.
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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby Bot101 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:52 am

Ice wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:43 am
Pac_Eddy wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:52 am
Ice wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:24 am
Read that sentence.....

Payton as a coach isn't a fool. Coaches highlight the best players. Kamara was a top 5 back in a so called committee approach with 194 carries. CMC was a top 2 fantasy back with only 219 carries.
I think the previous post was referring to when Sean Payton paid a first and second round pick to draft Mark Ingram. Many, including me, thought that meant the end of his RBBC and Ingram would be featured. Ingram was largely a disappointment for fantasy owners for the first three years.
I know exactly what he meant, that wasn’t the point. When Kamara was brought in he knew how to use his talents and expose defenses.

Too many fantasy owners get wrapped up in RBBC concepts but the reality in the NFL is all about talent utilization.

Sanders isn’t a Howard or Ingram type in his overall skill set.

I would be careful planting a flag that Sanders will be in negative RBBC situation.

He is an electric talent with elite burst, soft hands, and very good vision.
Stop it. Ive been Sanders lover for months. Gettin me all hot and sweaty over here.

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby PTW32 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:21 pm

Phaded wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:49 am
Just to reiterate and for the record, I stated both that Sanders will be in a RBBC and that he will have fantasy value.
I feel like too many get too wrapped up in expectations and want every RB to be a workhorse, otherwise they do not have value.

While the majority of your top tier running backs obtain a ton of value from workhorse touches, unless you are playing in an insanely shallow league - the non workhorse guys can have value as well.

The Eagles coaching staff has produced uninspiring numbers thus far from their running backs up until this point, but the case could easily be made that they haven't had backs as talented as Sanders or even Howard.

I will again reiterate that I view him as a low-end RB2; but that isn't necessarily a bad thing for him, as long as he can consistently do it. I wouldn't touch Sanders at his ADP, but for those who don't have a choice - you just have to be realistic about what you are getting. It's not bellcow or bust.
Just curious (because a value your opinion) what price would you touch him for?
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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby Phaded » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:28 pm

PTW32 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:21 pm
Just curious (because a value your opinion) what price would you touch him for?
It is hard to say because everyone is different with their price tags.

I would have him probably around the RB 20-25 range [so whatever you are willing to pay for that, personally around the same value/price as a guy like Penny (who I think will see a huge spike in value by this time next year and I actually prefer him over Sanders)]. In this class - I can see why he is being valued a little bit higher and I think trading down or out is the best option, but if you have no choice then I can understand the choice.

However, people are getting a bit too bullish on him.
DLF RB Rankings currently have him as their RB14 which is crazy to me.
Ahead of guys like Jacobs, Mack, A Jones, Freeman, Fournette, Hunt and more.

For me - he's not a guy I want as an every week RB, I would want him as my RB3 or FLEX guy; those are the prices I would consider paying for him (and even then, it depends).
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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby IZigUZag » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:52 pm

When people tell me that Sanders is doomed to be in an RBBC this is what y'all sound like to me:

"Pederson is basically Bill Belicheck. He's an Andy Reid disciple, but who cares-- he's committed to an RBBC approach regardless of talent discrepancies. Why? Well if he wanted a workhorse, why doesn't he have one already?! Why wouldn't he have implemented a one back system with Corey Clement, Wendell Smallwood, and Jay Ajayi on one knee and a fractured back? The eagles were in on all of those high profile RB trades because they wanted another back to add to their stable! They spent a premium draft pick on him because they don't think he's a 3 down back! Roseman saying otherwise was just lip service, of course!"

I fully expect Sanders to have to earn this backfield, and I'm not saying he's going to start week 1 as the starter... but is Jordan Howard going to hold him back? Hell no. Is Corey Clement, Wendell Smallwood? Again, no. This has the Nick Chubb, Carlos Hyde feel to it all over again, but I don't think Pederson will be as stubborn about changing status quo as Hue Jackson was. If Sanders is the vastly superior back, he's going to take over this backfield. If your rationale for not wanting Sanders is that he's just not very good, I'm ok with that. But don't use the PHI is committed to the RBBC philosophy as your primary defense for discounting his value in Dynasty.

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby ArrylT » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:11 pm

In my opinion there are 3 separate things.

Rankings
ADP
Trade value

You can rank a player RB X but still not be willing to draft him at ADP Y or acquire him at Price Z.

So based on talent I could have Sanders as say RB20, but where ADP says RB20 should be drafted in a startup or Rookie 3 in a rookie draft, I might still not be willing to take him there, because a different player at a different position is seen as a better fit for my team.

Further if I own the 1.03 and am in a rebuild, I might pass on an 'older' back whose production value might be worth more than the 1.03, because Sanders longer term & potential upside appeals to me than the other players shorter but better production period & known upside. But if I am a contender, and an owner offers the 1.03/Sanders for my player, I'm doing the exact opposite, and holding on to my vet.

Part of the issue for me has always been that ADP is basically where you have to take him FIRST. Now that I am playing in leagues with multiple copies - it is very interesting to see the spread of 2/4/8 copies of players in the drafts adp. But in a single copy league if you want Sanders normally you have to take him in Round X of a startup, or 1.03-1.04 in rookie drafts (league format dependant).

That is why, to me at least, it is important to be sold on a player, when you acquire them / draft them at their price. If you get Sanders with the mindset of well I dont really like him or believe in him - but if he does well I can flip him for more in half a year - then sometimes you get stuck. Owners who tried to flip RoJo have hopefully learned that lesson.

No I am not comparing Sanders to RoJo or anyone. The point is just that you cannot look at a players Ranking or ADP or trade value in isolation and think I can take him and profit if I decide to sell him. Rather it is important to know your league mindset, and think to yourself, worst case am I going to be comfortable owning this player a year from now. Better yet it is always a good idea to think - do I actually need this player for my team.

There is a reason many owners recommend focusing on BPA in drafts. Maybe you feel your need is at RB - but right now projection wise Sanders is only projected to be an RB3-4 in 2019. You may be able to get better production out of other assets at better prices.

So if you feel yeah Sanders may be in an RBBC at the moment and it could be rough - but I believe his talent will shine through at some point, and even in an RBBC he'll become very efficient and eventually reach RB1 production - then taking/acquiring him at his current price in drafts/trades may be the right move for you. But if you have doubts on his talent, or his situation, or your ability to trade him - cost wise it may not be the right thing to do.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby IZigUZag » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:36 pm

ArrylT wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:11 pm
So if you feel yeah Sanders may be in an RBBC at the moment and it could be rough - but I believe his talent will shine through at some point, and even in an RBBC he'll become very efficient and eventually reach RB1 production - then taking/acquiring him at his current price in drafts/trades may be the right move for you. But if you have doubts on his talent, or his situation, or your ability to trade him - cost wise it may not be the right thing to do.
That's pretty much where I am with Sanders. Where people see just another meh RB in an underwhelming RB class, I see a borderline elite prospect hidden behind the greatest RB in college football history; with room to grow.

And if you disagree with me on this evaluation, that's completely fine. He's definitely a pretty raw RB who could benefit from a little time to develop (notably his game in the open field where he's strangely less elusive than when he's in a crowd near the LoS). That might have something to do with not being the starter for 3 years, or it might be a fatal flaw in his mental wiring.

At his current price (significantly discounted 1.03-1.05) I think his upside makes him a bargain, and his floor in that offense is higher than people are giving him credit for. If you think he's a mediocre talent, then obviously he's not going to be worth it for you. But the reason I've heard for hating on his ADP up to this point has been focused mainly on the RBBC implemented by PHI the past few years.. which is just flawed logic.

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby FantasyFreak » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:52 pm

Phaded wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:28 pm
PTW32 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:21 pm
Just curious (because a value your opinion) what price would you touch him for?
It is hard to say because everyone is different with their price tags.

I would have him probably around the RB 20-25 range [so whatever you are willing to pay for that, personally around the same value/price as a guy like Penny (who I think will see a huge spike in value by this time next year and I actually prefer him over Sanders)]. In this class - I can see why he is being valued a little bit higher and I think trading down or out is the best option, but if you have no choice then I can understand the choice.

However, people are getting a bit too bullish on him.
DLF RB Rankings currently have him as their RB14 which is crazy to me.
Ahead of guys like Jacobs, Mack, A Jones, Freeman, Fournette, Hunt and more.

For me - he's not a guy I want as an every week RB, I would want him as my RB3 or FLEX guy; those are the prices I would consider paying for him (and even then, it depends).
Sanders is ahead of Jacobs? I haven't seen that as a trend in rookie drafts. This is news to me. Had no idea he was that high already. Why on earth would people take him ahead of Mack? Wow. Had no idea. I like him, but I guess the consensus is I'm now lower on him than others if that's the case.
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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby IZigUZag » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:24 pm

FantasyFreak wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:52 pm
Phaded wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:28 pm
PTW32 wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:21 pm
Just curious (because a value your opinion) what price would you touch him for?
It is hard to say because everyone is different with their price tags.

I would have him probably around the RB 20-25 range [so whatever you are willing to pay for that, personally around the same value/price as a guy like Penny (who I think will see a huge spike in value by this time next year and I actually prefer him over Sanders)]. In this class - I can see why he is being valued a little bit higher and I think trading down or out is the best option, but if you have no choice then I can understand the choice.

However, people are getting a bit too bullish on him.
DLF RB Rankings currently have him as their RB14 which is crazy to me.
Ahead of guys like Jacobs, Mack, A Jones, Freeman, Fournette, Hunt and more.

For me - he's not a guy I want as an every week RB, I would want him as my RB3 or FLEX guy; those are the prices I would consider paying for him (and even then, it depends).
Sanders is ahead of Jacobs? I haven't seen that as a trend in rookie drafts. This is news to me. Had no idea he was that high already. Why on earth would people take him ahead of Mack? Wow. Had no idea. I like him, but I guess the consensus is I'm now lower on him than others if that's the case.
He's also the RB13 ahead of Mack, Jacobs, Kerryon Johnson, James Conner on playerprofiler's Dynasty rankings.

These aren't seasonal rankings, and is buffered by some people who believe he's the best RB talent in this class by a fair margin. Jacobs, Mack, Conner are obviously ranked higher than him in seasonal leagues.

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby FantasyFreak » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:28 pm

IZigUZag wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:24 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:52 pm
Phaded wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:28 pm


It is hard to say because everyone is different with their price tags.

I would have him probably around the RB 20-25 range [so whatever you are willing to pay for that, personally around the same value/price as a guy like Penny (who I think will see a huge spike in value by this time next year and I actually prefer him over Sanders)]. In this class - I can see why he is being valued a little bit higher and I think trading down or out is the best option, but if you have no choice then I can understand the choice.

However, people are getting a bit too bullish on him.
DLF RB Rankings currently have him as their RB14 which is crazy to me.
Ahead of guys like Jacobs, Mack, A Jones, Freeman, Fournette, Hunt and more.

For me - he's not a guy I want as an every week RB, I would want him as my RB3 or FLEX guy; those are the prices I would consider paying for him (and even then, it depends).
Sanders is ahead of Jacobs? I haven't seen that as a trend in rookie drafts. This is news to me. Had no idea he was that high already. Why on earth would people take him ahead of Mack? Wow. Had no idea. I like him, but I guess the consensus is I'm now lower on him than others if that's the case.
He's also the RB13 ahead of Mack, Jacobs, Kerryon Johnson, James Conner on playerprofiler's Dynasty rankings.

These aren't seasonal rankings, and is buffered by some people who believe he's the best RB talent in this class by a fair margin. Jacobs, Mack, Conner are obviously ranked higher than him in seasonal leagues.

Yeah, I can't get on board with this. I like him, but that's a bit much for me. I find Matt Kelley entertaining, but I find his rankings and takes too metric centric, as he admits that he basically doesn't even really watch football, and tends to diminish everything around the game other that metrics, which are only a piece of the puzzle.
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Record: 14-4

Wentz, Stafford
Chubb, Cook, Carson, Breida, Ekeler, Penny, James White, Sproles
Evans, Sutton, Woods, Agholor, Sanu, Higgins, D Robinson, T Taylor, D Shepard, Hardy
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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby IZigUZag » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:40 pm

FantasyFreak wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:28 pm

Yeah, I can't get on board with this. I like him, but that's a bit much for me. I find Matt Kelley entertaining, but I find his rankings and takes too metric centric, as he admits that he basically doesn't even really watch football, and tends to diminish everything around the game other that metrics, which are only a piece of the puzzle.
Yea, you gotta take everything he says with a grain of salt. He also has a tendency to take the contrarian point of view 9/10 times.

He's far from the only person that has Sanders rated in this area in Dynasty, though. It really depends on how you project his talent moving forward in the NFL. If he can seize this backfield, how much is a 3 down back on the PHI offense going to be worth? I'm thinking... a lot

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby FantasyFreak » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:10 pm

IZigUZag wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:40 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:28 pm

Yeah, I can't get on board with this. I like him, but that's a bit much for me. I find Matt Kelley entertaining, but I find his rankings and takes too metric centric, as he admits that he basically doesn't even really watch football, and tends to diminish everything around the game other that metrics, which are only a piece of the puzzle.
Yea, you gotta take everything he says with a grain of salt. He also has a tendency to take the contrarian point of view 9/10 times.

He's far from the only person that has Sanders rated in this area in Dynasty, though. It really depends on how you project his talent moving forward in the NFL. If he can seize this backfield, how much is a 3 down back on the PHI offense going to be worth? I'm thinking... a lot
Agreed on just about everything you say here.
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Wentz, Stafford
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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby joeylitz » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:44 pm

FantasyDumDum wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:55 pm
There is ZERO evidence for the completely fabricated 60-70% of work in Philly. It is very, very, very unlikely that that happens. All evidence points towards the highest end of the spectrum for Sanders, if EVERYTHING goes his way, to squeak above 30%.

It is a mountain of facts vs some unlikely made up dream scenario at this point.

No intelligent person would invest much in Sanders in fantasy at this point, given the facts. If you are honest that much is clear and indisputable.
Lol
I’m still reading all the posts but I can’t wait to go back after the season is over and see how this plays out. Hopefully everyone status healthy.
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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby ArrylT » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:21 pm

The latest DLF article found here:

https://dynastyleaguefootball.com/2019/ ... kie-draft/

Suggests that in a combined 2019/2020 rookie draft Sanders would be the consensus 1.08
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Why is the majority so high on Miles Sanders???

Postby Goirish374 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:18 am

IZigUZag wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:36 pm
if you disagree with me on this evaluation, that's completely fine.
I don’t disagree with you on your Sanders take but...

Barkley as
IZigUZag wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:36 pm
...the greatest RB in college football history...
Come on, now.
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