DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Ice » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:12 am

I find it mildly amusing about how D.K. Metcalf can't run routes.

To all those buying this group think comment I would like to hear just 2-3 legitimate reasons and show it on tape. No issues with those arguing he ran a limited route tree as an X WR on one side of the field but claiming he can't run routes doesn't show up on film. Assuming he can't run routes because of scheme is pretty.....well if you know what assume means then you get my point.

No issues with anyone not liking him at 1.1 in this draft but it's not route running. Many are downgrading him due to to his floor, injury or the fact he had a solid WR on the other side running underneath routes but the fact remains he was a starter as a freshman and a 4 star coming out of High school. I have heard body fat issues and a bad 3 cone.

On the 3 cone BTW, I went back and researched verified results and he had a 6.80 L cone coming out of high school prior to Ole Miss.

His floor may appear low but IMO that has far more to do with his ceiling. He could star early if he goes to the right to the team. If he goes to the Raven's as an example it may take a while.

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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Phaded » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:02 am

His 3 cone sucked now as opposed to high school because he is more concerned with having an extreme bodybuilder physique (even less body fat than most) than a football player physique. No agility or flexibility. That is a bigger concern than his actual 3 cone time.

He will be in for a rude awakening when he has to play against men and not boys. It takes more than athleticism to win in the NFL. That first big hit is going to crush him.

Even his "highlight reels" on YouTube which are supposed to highlight the best in a player is extremely underwhelming.

I am not saying he will bust but I think the odds are good that he does bust. Athleticism, like for many players gives a high ceiling. However it is very rare for those athletes to hit that ceiling.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Ice » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:45 am

Phaded wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:02 am
His 3 cone sucked now as opposed to high school because he is more concerned with having an extreme bodybuilder physique (even less body fat than most) than a football player physique. No agility or flexibility. That is a bigger concern than his actual 3 cone time.
No offense intended but as someone who has much experience professionally in the world of rehab, you are factually incorrect. Old school thought was that weights reduced flexibility. Not the case with advancement in medical.

Flexibility is a function of stretching not lifting. In fact lifting and stretching actually increase flexibility. Plenty of competitive body builders are far more flexible than most realize.

What neither of us know is how much stretching he does; My take is he probably stretches a lot given how well his muscles fire in his lower body in running, and jumping.

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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Phaded » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:57 am

I was not directly saying muscle mass correlates to flexibility; I was saying that Metcalf himself is more concerned with it than flexibility. You need a healthy balance of both and Metcalf looks extremely rigid. You CAN absolutely be muscular and flexibile, but the flexibility is often neglected.

Of course in rehab you understand the importance of flexibility. A lot of these young kids do not and just want to look jacked.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Ice » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:18 am

Phaded wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:57 am
I was not directly saying muscle mass correlates to flexibility; I was saying that Metcalf himself is more concerned with it than flexibility. You need a healthy balance of both and Metcalf looks extremely rigid. You CAN absolutely be muscular and flexibility, but the flexibility is often neglected.

Of course in rehab you understand the importance of flexibility. A lot of these young kids do not and just want to look jacked.
That could be true. That said, I see plenty of functional flexibility in Metcalf. You can't run like that without being flexible. He didn't blow out his hamstrings which shows something as those muscles are at peak in both concentric and eccentric movements.

Could he increase flexibility, I am sure he could. What everyone needs to understand being drafted in the NFL is going for a full time job. Team have their own medical staffs, strength and nutrition experts. I am 100% certain if flexibility is really an issue it will be dealt with and improved on.

None of these players are completely locked into a static number. I know he didn't run his 3 cone clean. I watched it frame by frame. Had he run it clean he would have been closer to the better numbers even though he was less than .5 of a second slower.

Metcalf doesn't look rigid on film or running. He looks fast with gear changes to go get the ball. In fact he looks pretty smooth in some routes so unless you go frame by frame you can easily miss the nuance when you watch a 3 minute video in 3 minutes instead of breaking it down for over an hour.

I get he is polarizing. I also believe people get locked into a position and don't believe their eyes. D.K. had an amazing combine by all accounts. He looked better than most in all pass catching drills. Caught the ball easily with his body and came out of his breaks just fine.

His detractors are zeroing in on one drill but anyone that watched his combine in detail will walk away from it like many pro coaches seem to have and the best word to describe it is Impressive.

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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby FantasyFreak » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:31 am

There is little chance Metcalf busts. He may not be a 1500 yard receiver, but there is basically no chance he is Kevin White. Metcalf was on pace for 1138 yards and 10 TD's this year, before his injury, basically, too. Metcalf isn't going to win with a ton of double moves etc., and he doesn't need to. He was widely considered the top WR prospect before his injury, and his combine basically helped that cause.

There are basically 2 things that will lead to him not having any success in the NFL. Injuries and off field trouble. That's it. He came back from an injury to get into the best shape of his life for the combine, so there is little doubt on his work ethic.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby jenkins.math » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am

FantasyFreak wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:31 am
There is little chance Metcalf busts. He may not be a 1500 yard receiver, but there is basically no chance he is Kevin White. Metcalf was on pace for 1138 yards and 10 TD's this year, before his injury, basically, too. Metcalf isn't going to win with a ton of double moves etc., and he doesn't need to. He was widely considered the top WR prospect before his injury, and his combine basically helped that cause.

There are basically 2 things that will lead to him not having any success in the NFL. Injuries and off field trouble. That's it. He came back from an injury to get into the best shape of his life for the combine, so there is little doubt on his work ethic.
The only way he fails is by injury or off field trouble? That's about as false as proclaiming "there is little chance he busts". Plenty of prospects fail for actual football reasons. Chance Warmack and Robert Gallery were 2 lineman that were called the safest prospects in a decade at their position with a pro bowl floor. They both failed miserably compared to expectations. I feel like the Metcalf supporters have dug in so much that statements like these are putting him on Saquon level of being safe as a prospect. He isnt that.

As far as what he was on pace for this past season, he was lighting up the directional schools and no names. The 2 good defenses he played he had that one monster blow by vs Bama to open the game. The rest of his work vs Bama and LSU totals to 4 catches for about 50 yards. He will be seeing a lot more guys similar to Greedy Williams than whoever lined up across from him vs Kent State, UT Martin, Southern Illinois, and La Monroe.

I get the intrigue. I also get how enticing it is to think of him becoming a really good WR with his natural gifts. I agree his potential is through the roof. Which from what I've read, even the non believers admit. But to start acting like he is cant miss is just way too much for me.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby mild » Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:55 am

Krypto_King wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:14 pm
can you name some of these players that learned to become great route runners after entering the NFL?

All my peaks behind the curtain to the NFL are more of the, "wtf are you doing?" from coaches rather than some sort of nurturing, developmental, teaching atmosphere.
"NFL players don't become better at their technique from coaching (because it is tough love)" is a freakin' wiiiiiild take man. Do you think they watch hours upon hours of film and do 1-on-1 drills with DB's for giggles?

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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby FantasyFreak » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:00 am

jenkins.math wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:52 am
FantasyFreak wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:31 am
There is little chance Metcalf busts. He may not be a 1500 yard receiver, but there is basically no chance he is Kevin White. Metcalf was on pace for 1138 yards and 10 TD's this year, before his injury, basically, too. Metcalf isn't going to win with a ton of double moves etc., and he doesn't need to. He was widely considered the top WR prospect before his injury, and his combine basically helped that cause.

There are basically 2 things that will lead to him not having any success in the NFL. Injuries and off field trouble. That's it. He came back from an injury to get into the best shape of his life for the combine, so there is little doubt on his work ethic.
The only way he fails is by injury or off field trouble? That's about as false as proclaiming "there is little chance he busts". Plenty of prospects fail for actual football reasons. Chance Warmack and Robert Gallery were 2 lineman that were called the safest prospects in a decade at their position with a pro bowl floor. They both failed miserably compared to expectations. I feel like the Metcalf supporters have dug in so much that statements like these are putting him on Saquon level of being safe as a prospect. He isnt that.

As far as what he was on pace for this past season, he was lighting up the directional schools and no names. The 2 good defenses he played he had that one monster blow by vs Bama to open the game. The rest of his work vs Bama and LSU totals to 4 catches for about 50 yards. He will be seeing a lot more guys similar to Greedy Williams than whoever lined up across from him vs Kent State, UT Martin, Southern Illinois, and La Monroe.

I get the intrigue. I also get how enticing it is to think of him becoming a really good WR with his natural gifts. I agree his potential is through the roof. Which from what I've read, even the non believers admit. But to start acting like he is cant miss is just way too much for me.
I'm talking bust like Kevin White, which people are throwing around here. Again, I did mention injuries, which can stifle development, but he's not a similar prospect to White. That is basically what I am referring to.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Kcarr » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:11 am

What I have trouble seeing is how this combine seems to have changed people's minds on dk, either good because of what he did well or bad because of the drills he was near the bottom in.

Did anyone expect him to come in and not be fast, not be strong, or not jump well? I have heard people say the expected mid 4.3s but were blown away he was .02 seconds faster, that is such a tiny difference that you usually see the same player have more difference on consecutive runs. If that little difference is changing your whole eval in any way you are doing it wrong.

For those who are knocking him just for having historically bad agility drills, both 3 cone and 20 yard, that would have been bad for a tight end and were worse than most tight ends, was that really all that unexpected? Was there anything on his tape that suggested he could change direction without losing speed? I mean the actual numbers may have been surprising but would a 7.1 really have been any different, we still would look at it and say there is little chance he wins with change of direction, he is going to have to win with either speed, fear of his speed, or physicality.

What it all comes down to and what it came down to before the combine as well, he dominated in college by being a superior athlete, will he be able to dominate at the next level based on those same traits.

Now, I will admit I have not yet watched the actual catching drills so if he did really well there maybe it answers some questions about his hands though his hands weren't ever what worried me personally.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Ice » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:12 am

FantasyFreak wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:31 am
There is little chance Metcalf busts. He may not be a 1500 yard receiver, but there is basically no chance he is Kevin White. Metcalf was on pace for 1138 yards and 10 TD's this year, before his injury, basically, too. Metcalf isn't going to win with a ton of double moves etc., and he doesn't need to. He was widely considered the top WR prospect before his injury, and his combine basically helped that cause.

There are basically 2 things that will lead to him not having any success in the NFL. Injuries and off field trouble. That's it. He came back from an injury to get into the best shape of his life for the combine, so there is little doubt on his work ethic.
While any player can bust, I agree there is little chance he does. He posses a ton of skill. He may not become Julio, TO, Moss, Or Calvin as those types are truly rare but there is low risk of being bust for this player. The truly important characteristics are all present with this player. He plucks the ball with his hands, has great leaping ability, tracks the ball well at speed, press coverage is easily won, and he can take the top of a defense. There are plenty of reasons he is being compared to greats by scouts and coaches at the same point in his career.. He flashes rare ability.

BTW, Great point about his desire. I also liked the cut away to him overcome with emotion when he was on the phone as it shows a dose of humility IMO.

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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby Vcize » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:52 am

Phaded wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:57 am
I was not directly saying muscle mass correlates to flexibility; I was saying that Metcalf himself is more concerned with it than flexibility. You need a healthy balance of both and Metcalf looks extremely rigid. You CAN absolutely be muscular and flexibile, but the flexibility is often neglected.

Of course in rehab you understand the importance of flexibility. A lot of these young kids do not and just want to look jacked.
We have no idea what Metcalf cares about and the idea that he just wants to look jacked and doesn't care about improving in areas that could make him millions of dollars is pure speculation on your part.

Thankfully even if he does feel that way (unlikely) it won't really be up to him and so long as his NFL trainers are as up to snuff on modern flexibility training as DLF forum member Phaded and all his advanced degrees, I think they will have him do a stretch or two.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby xlur8ed » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:01 am

I'm curious to learn everyone's take a Metcalf vs busting. I worry of him 'busting' to the fact 1.01-1.03 was a poor decision. As stated previously in this thread, he is now being proclaimed this years Edit: 'Can't Miss' and that simply isn't true.

The thread started as an opinion on what the 'public' will view Metcalf as....not what he IS. We are all arguing for or against his worth, but I'm not sure any of us would pass on him at 1.10, so it isn't like he is worthless.

1.01 should always be the safest player on the board. At this time I do not believe that to be Metcalf, but if you put him on GB with their 1R pick, sure, I'm buying at 1.01.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby FantasyFreak » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:31 am

xlur8ed wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:01 am
I'm curious to learn everyone's take a Metcalf vs busting. I worry of him 'busting' to the fact 1.01-1.03 was a poor decision. As stated previously in this thread, he is now being proclaimed this years Barkley AND. HE. IS. NOT.

The thread started as an opinion on what the 'public' will view Metcalf as....not what he IS. We are all arguing for or against his worth, but I'm not sure any of us would pass on him at 1.10, so it isn't like he is worthless.

1.01 should always be the safest player on the board. At this time I do not believe that to be Metcalf, but if you put him on GB with their 1R pick, sure, I'm buying at 1.01.
Literally nobody is saying that.
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Re: DK Metcalf is your 1.01 now.

Postby wickerkat1212 » Mon Mar 04, 2019 10:39 am

As it's been said elsewhere, this is a risky class. I've considered Jacobs at 1.01, as well as Metcalf, and I know both are risky. I agree that it's going to depend on where they land. GB is an excellent example of a place he could do well. I'm not concerned with his 3Cone drill and times, his other efforts balance that, and even outshine it. As it's been said, you can WORK on flexibility, but a lot of his traits are unique, that whole "freak" label. I don't see any safe picks at 1.01. So Metcalf works for me as much as anyone.
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