Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby Ice » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:18 am

The Browns made a good move. This team is rising with very good talent and a GM that knows what it takes. No issues at all with staying inside their organization to build on a productive season.

Will be interested to see the build out of the staff but this tam is poised to win a division sooner than later.

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby ArrylT » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:10 am

I certainly do not hate the hire - the only point I've been making, like Cameron Giles alluded to, is that the odds are not ideal for first time coaches coming from OC/DC ranks, and when you add in his relative inexperience & the fact that the Browns are still in the process of building their identity & culture (ie they are not the most stable of organizations) - that lower expectations should be given.
Please speak to clarion contrarion before considering the use of vetos..

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby Ice » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:29 am

ArrylT wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:10 am
I certainly do not hate the hire - the only point I've been making, like Cameron Giles alluded to, is that the odds are not ideal for first time coaches coming from OC/DC ranks, and when you add in his relative inexperience & the fact that the Browns are still in the process of building their identity & culture (ie they are not the most stable of organizations) - that lower expectations should be given.
Doug Peterson might disagree. The league seems to be changing and OC's are ruling the day as HC hires these days. The biggest concern for the Browns might be their new batch of Coordinators.

Agree they haven't been the most stable of organizations but they now have a strong GM, Better talent, and a QB that sure looks the part of a Franchise Player. Those components can bring stability pretty quickly.

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby ericanadian » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 pm

The hiring of Monken doesn’t fill me with hope for Mayfield’s long term prospects. Two possibilities, Mayfield struggles under his third offensive system entering only his second year in the NFL. Or, he does well, and some team continues the trend of hiring innovative offensive coordinators and Monken heads for an HC role leaving Mayfield on his fourth offensive system going into year three. Mayfield would be approaching Alex Smith/Sam Bradford territory at that point.
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QB - Stafford, Tannehill, Mariota
RB - Gordon, Cook, Penny, Guice, Harris, Laird, Love
WR - Julio, C. Davis, AJ Brown, Samuel, Washington, Di. Johnson, Isabella
TE - Henry, Andrews
LB - Kuechly, R. Smith
DL - Hunter, Armstead, Quinn
DB - D. James, Baker, Edmunds
K - Just a stupid kicker

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby Ice » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:59 pm

ericanadian wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 pm
The hiring of Monken doesn’t fill me with hope for Mayfield’s long term prospects. Two possibilities, Mayfield struggles under his third offensive system entering only his second year in the NFL. Or, he does well, and some team continues the trend of hiring innovative offensive coordinators and Monken heads for an HC role leaving Mayfield on his fourth offensive system going into year three. Mayfield would be approaching Alex Smith/Sam Bradford territory at that point.
If it makes you feel better, Kitchens plans on calling the plays in 2019. Don't expect any major changes in their system next season.

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby ericanadian » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:15 pm

Ice wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:59 pm
ericanadian wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 pm
The hiring of Monken doesn’t fill me with hope for Mayfield’s long term prospects. Two possibilities, Mayfield struggles under his third offensive system entering only his second year in the NFL. Or, he does well, and some team continues the trend of hiring innovative offensive coordinators and Monken heads for an HC role leaving Mayfield on his fourth offensive system going into year three. Mayfield would be approaching Alex Smith/Sam Bradford territory at that point.
If it makes you feel better, Kitchens plans on calling the plays in 2019. Don't expect any major changes in their system next season.
Surprised Monken would sign up for that. Good news though. Thanks.
All I Der Is Win - 16 Team IDP League (Pass TD 6pts)

QB - Stafford, Tannehill, Mariota
RB - Gordon, Cook, Penny, Guice, Harris, Laird, Love
WR - Julio, C. Davis, AJ Brown, Samuel, Washington, Di. Johnson, Isabella
TE - Henry, Andrews
LB - Kuechly, R. Smith
DL - Hunter, Armstead, Quinn
DB - D. James, Baker, Edmunds
K - Just a stupid kicker

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby FantasyFreak » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:54 pm

Bump.

Baker seems to be imploding this year. The pressure seems to be getting to him and his recent teenage like outburst at a press conference is not a good sign. This team, and Baker are going in the wrong direction. Baker is showing even less composure with the press than he does on the field.

I think the hire of Kitchens was a catastrophic mistake at this point, as it has helped to derail the career arc of their number 1 overall pick. Baker deserves his share of the blame, but I think a rookie HC, who was probably at best qualified to be an OC, (and that's debatable), was the wrong move.
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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby IZigUZag » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:30 pm

FantasyFreak wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:54 pm
Bump.

Baker seems to be imploding this year. The pressure seems to be getting to him and his recent teenage like outburst at a press conference is not a good sign. This team, and Baker are going in the wrong direction. Baker is showing even less composure with the press than he does on the field.

I think the hire of Kitchens was a catastrophic mistake at this point, as it has helped to derail the career arc of their number 1 overall pick. Baker deserves his share of the blame, but I think a rookie HC, who was probably at best qualified to be an OC, (and that's debatable), was the wrong move.
Trading Zeitler for Olivier Vernon was a monumental mistake.

There are a lot of problems with CLE this year, but interior pressure has very little counterplay, and Baker is getting hounded by it on a weekly basis

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby jenkins.math » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:32 am

IZigUZag wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:30 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:54 pm
Bump.

Baker seems to be imploding this year. The pressure seems to be getting to him and his recent teenage like outburst at a press conference is not a good sign. This team, and Baker are going in the wrong direction. Baker is showing even less composure with the press than he does on the field.

I think the hire of Kitchens was a catastrophic mistake at this point, as it has helped to derail the career arc of their number 1 overall pick. Baker deserves his share of the blame, but I think a rookie HC, who was probably at best qualified to be an OC, (and that's debatable), was the wrong move.
Trading Zeitler for Olivier Vernon was a monumental mistake.

There are a lot of problems with CLE this year, but interior pressure has very little counterplay, and Baker is getting hounded by it on a weekly basis
The trade for Zeitler was bad, but the hype train was overblown last season. I believe the Browns only beat 1 team with a winning record last season and that was the Ravens in week 5 (the pre Lamar Ravens). So you had this enormous hype around a team that managed to win 6 games against bad teams and 1 game against a bad team at the time they played them.

Then add in the whole "going from hunter to hunted" target and teams are getting up to play you instead of being the traditional dress rehearsal you have been for 2 decades.

I didn't think it would be this ugly, but I never bought into the "Browns are a good team now" hype at all. I expected struggles, but not like this.
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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby Weknownothing86 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:54 am

jenkins.math wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:32 am
IZigUZag wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:30 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:54 pm
Bump.

Baker seems to be imploding this year. The pressure seems to be getting to him and his recent teenage like outburst at a press conference is not a good sign. This team, and Baker are going in the wrong direction. Baker is showing even less composure with the press than he does on the field.

I think the hire of Kitchens was a catastrophic mistake at this point, as it has helped to derail the career arc of their number 1 overall pick. Baker deserves his share of the blame, but I think a rookie HC, who was probably at best qualified to be an OC, (and that's debatable), was the wrong move.
Trading Zeitler for Olivier Vernon was a monumental mistake.

There are a lot of problems with CLE this year, but interior pressure has very little counterplay, and Baker is getting hounded by it on a weekly basis
The trade for Zeitler was bad, but the hype train was overblown last season. I believe the Browns only beat 1 team with a winning record last season and that was the Ravens in week 5 (the pre Lamar Ravens). So you had this enormous hype around a team that managed to win 6 games against bad teams and 1 game against a bad team at the time they played them.

Then add in the whole "going from hunter to hunted" target and teams are getting up to play you instead of being the traditional dress rehearsal you have been for 2 decades.

I didn't think it would be this ugly, but I never bought into the "Browns are a good team now" hype at all. I expected struggles, but not like this.
Yup. Im sorry but i was totally rooting against the Browns due to all of the undeserved hype. I tried to tell a few of my friends that football is not a sport where you can put together a bunch of good free agents and have it work, its just not like that, its not the NBA. Baker is annoying now, sounds like a brat, and poor Kitchens is in way over his head. IMO Adam Gase is the worst coach in football but Kitchens is a close second. This really would have been the browns chance too with Big Ben out for season and a 2nd year Qb in Lamar Jackson (love Lamar but didnt expect him to be this good). I expect Kitchens to be fired in the offseason and OBJ to grow frustrated and do something stupid soon which will cause them to totally collapse and OBJ be gone in the offseason as well.
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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby bjd5211 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:37 am

John Dorsey walked into an almost dream scenario for a GM taking over a team with massive amounts of cap space, promising young talent on the existing roster plus a plethora of draft picks including the 1st overall pick. He quite frankly has done an absolutely terrible job of using those advantage to improve the team. The draft picks are all gone and the cap space is largely locked up in the WR position and there are potential cap issues looming in the future due to the vets he's brought in plus the young players that will need paying soon. This organization is a mess from the top down and goes to show just how important ownership is in the NFL.

And all those issues are before you account for the moronic decision to hire Freddie Kitchens. Firing him will be a step in the right direction, but they'll inevitably take another 2 steps back with the next hire or some other decision.

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby ericanadian » Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:55 am

bjd5211 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:37 am
John Dorsey walked into an almost dream scenario for a GM taking over a team with massive amounts of cap space, promising young talent on the existing roster plus a plethora of draft picks including the 1st overall pick. He quite frankly has done an absolutely terrible job of using those advantage to improve the team. The draft picks are all gone and the cap space is largely locked up in the WR position and there are potential cap issues looming in the future due to the vets he's brought in plus the young players that will need paying soon. This organization is a mess from the top down and goes to show just how important ownership is in the NFL.

And all those issues are before you account for the moronic decision to hire Freddie Kitchens. Firing him will be a step in the right direction, but they'll inevitably take another 2 steps back with the next hire or some other decision.
And yet Dorsey was celebrated for blowing through all that value. The Moneyball strategy was never really given a shot in Cleveland because the owner listened to one of the worst coaches in the NFL over the guys he actually paid to manage the roster.
All I Der Is Win - 16 Team IDP League (Pass TD 6pts)

QB - Stafford, Tannehill, Mariota
RB - Gordon, Cook, Penny, Guice, Harris, Laird, Love
WR - Julio, C. Davis, AJ Brown, Samuel, Washington, Di. Johnson, Isabella
TE - Henry, Andrews
LB - Kuechly, R. Smith
DL - Hunter, Armstead, Quinn
DB - D. James, Baker, Edmunds
K - Just a stupid kicker

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby bjd5211 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:07 am

Sashi Brown had them on the right path but was not allowed the time to see it through, similar to Sam Hinkie with the 76'ers in the NBA. They both get fired right on the verge of when their plan that was always in place was about to start paying off. I love what the Dolphins are doing currently, but am skeptical that they will actually be give the opportunity to see it through. It will probably be the Browns all over again and some new GM will be brought in and get the chance to be proclaimed savior of the franchise; when it was Chris Grier and Brian Flores that did all the the work to acquire all the picks and young players that were getting ready to blossom into a good team anyway.

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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby Orenthal Shames » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:30 am

jenkins.math wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:32 am
IZigUZag wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:30 pm
FantasyFreak wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:54 pm
Bump.

Baker seems to be imploding this year. The pressure seems to be getting to him and his recent teenage like outburst at a press conference is not a good sign. This team, and Baker are going in the wrong direction. Baker is showing even less composure with the press than he does on the field.

I think the hire of Kitchens was a catastrophic mistake at this point, as it has helped to derail the career arc of their number 1 overall pick. Baker deserves his share of the blame, but I think a rookie HC, who was probably at best qualified to be an OC, (and that's debatable), was the wrong move.
Trading Zeitler for Olivier Vernon was a monumental mistake.

There are a lot of problems with CLE this year, but interior pressure has very little counterplay, and Baker is getting hounded by it on a weekly basis
The trade for Zeitler was bad, but the hype train was overblown last season. I believe the Browns only beat 1 team with a winning record last season and that was the Ravens in week 5 (the pre Lamar Ravens). So you had this enormous hype around a team that managed to win 6 games against bad teams and 1 game against a bad team at the time they played them.

Then add in the whole "going from hunter to hunted" target and teams are getting up to play you instead of being the traditional dress rehearsal you have been for 2 decades.

I didn't think it would be this ugly, but I never bought into the "Browns are a good team now" hype at all. I expected struggles, but not like this.
This could happen all over again. Their schedule the rest of the way isn't too tough. They could win 5 or 6 of the remaining games and start this whole nonsensical SB contender narrative again.
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Re: Browns being Browns again? Or bold genius move? Kitchens

Postby notweswelker » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:32 am

Why god why did they not keep Gregg Williams as HC. He had them going in the right direction, they were winning, they looked like a real team. They sacrificed the right decision for Freddie f*cking Kitchens. Was Kitchens really going anywhere? Just another case of Browns, Brownsing it all up.


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