Tie break dilemma

[Nascent]

Who wins the play-off seeding tiebreak in this situation and why? all advice appreciated

info:

* Wild card seedings, seeds 5&6 up for grabs. THREE teams finish the season 8&5
* Using ESPN
* Head to Head is our tiebreak with points scored de facto 2nd tiebreak
*16 team 4 division league so not all teams play each other every year

Team A has scored the most points of the three, hasn't played either of the other two
Team B has scored the least of the three but has beaten team C, didnt play team A
Team C has scored more than B but lost to them in the regular season

Now I am pretty clear A should be the 5 seed right but who gets the 6?

My original take was that as not all three teams have played each other then head to head cant be used so we straight away go to points scored (C is in) as a viable tiebreak (if there has been only two teams and they had played then h2h would be used)

but ESPN put Team B in (as the 6) over Team C as they have the head to head between the two


so what is everyone's take? confusing right?

who should be the 6?

[FiremanEd]

I’d have C out. Can’t remove A due to not having played anyone (and winning the third tie breaker of points). Can’t remove B since he has tie breaker over C, which is the tie breaker.

Update tie breaker in offseason.

[Metriculous]

ESPN sucks, but now to your issue:

B has to be in. He won the H2H matchup. He can't control the schedule. H2H is the listed tie-breaker.

[bjd5211]

You said 1st tie breaker is H2H, B beat C H2H, so B is clearly the answer.

[Jigga94]

I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.

3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.

Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed

You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules

[Nascent]

I’d have C out. Can’t remove A due to not having played anyone (and winning the third tie breaker of points). Can’t remove B since he has tie breaker over C, which is the tie breaker.

Update tie breaker in offseason.

Thanks for answering.

That's how ESPN has it too. so basically we are saying that h2h (being the first tiebreak) has precedence over all and points scored only matters after that to break subsequent ties and because B has beaten C but not played A that tiebreak (between 5th and 6th seed) goes down to points so A is 5 and B is 6.

Cheers, I think that is correct too.

any other input guys?

[Nascent]

I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.

3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.

Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed

You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules

Any suggestion for the bold bit? it gets complicated with a three team tie and not all teams having played each other. hard to make it clearer.

I like the way you explain it above though. makes sense.


seems we have a consensus. really appreciate all the answers guys, thanks

[Shoreline Steamers]

We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.

Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.

But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.

[Jigga94]

I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.

3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.

Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed

You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules

Any suggestion for the bold bit? it gets complicated with a three team tie and not all teams having played each other. hard to make it clearer.

I like the way you explain it above though. makes sense.


seems we have a consensus. really appreciate all the answers guys, thanks

I'd either
A. take the time to write it down concisely to explain the above bit. Where the H2H tiebreaker will only be used if teams have all played each other (I would exclude saying equal amount of times because 1-0 would beat 1-1 for example). It needs to be stated that you look at each seed independently. So exactly like you did with this one with 3 teams. Once you determine 1 out of 3 that made it, the 2 remaining teams are looked at on a separate basis in the tiebreaker breakdown.

B. Just throw out H2H and use total points for because it's easier to understand and in my opinion, more fair

[Nascent]

We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.

Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.

But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.

part of the charm of the league is the head to head and rivalry thing rather than just being a spreadsheet straight up points scored. the league has been going coming up a decade and we have very engaged players (all friendly) who contribute, including power rankings and owners adding colour around their franchise in terms of stadium names etc. it's all good fun.

4 divisions and a 13 game season works as:
6 games - your three divisional teams home and away
4 games - rotating around the other three divisions as per nfl
3 games - play the teams who finished in the equivalent position to you last year (again a la NFL, 4th place plays other 4th places etc)

We also have a +5 point homefield advantage to incentivise play-off seedings and give a bit more colour to home games in regular season (week 8 is 'London' game week so both teams get +5 to ensure each team plays 6 home, 6 away and one neutral)

then weeks 14-16 are standard play-offs. so the head to head is a big part of our league, it has worked well so far and I am a bit loath to change that now

[Nascent]

I believe the way you are looking at it is correct.

3 way tie between teams for 2 spots.
- Goes to 1st tiebreaker which is null because they didn't play each other or equal games (in a 16 team league this needs to be reconsidered because it will always happen).
- Go to 2nd tiebreaker which is points so Team A is 5 seed.

Now there are 2 teams left
- Tiebreaker 1 is H2H and the 2 teams HAVE played each other so Team B gets 6th seed

You need to square this away for next season though in my opinion. Shouldn't need this much wording in the league rules

Any suggestion for the bold bit? it gets complicated with a three team tie and not all teams having played each other. hard to make it clearer.

I like the way you explain it above though. makes sense.


seems we have a consensus. really appreciate all the answers guys, thanks

I'd either
A. take the time to write it down concisely to explain the above bit. Where the H2H tiebreaker will only be used if teams have all played each other (I would exclude saying equal amount of times because 1-0 would beat 1-1 for example). It needs to be stated that you look at each seed independently. So exactly like you did with this one with 3 teams. Once you determine 1 out of 3 that made it, the 2 remaining teams are looked at on a separate basis in the tiebreaker breakdown.

B. Just throw out H2H and use total points for because it's easier to understand and in my opinion, more fair

bam, think you nailed it there in bold.

we want to keep h2h for reasons i posted above. i think your post here clarifies the rest.

thanks. definitely appreciated. that goes for all respondees

(I'm the 5 seed by the way. started 1&5 and on a 7 game tear!)

[skip]

It's actually quite easy given your rules... Since there is no H2H involving all of the teams, it doesn't apply thus the first team in is based on total points (team A). You then go back and start again to determine the next team in and B defeated C in H2H.

[Orenthal Shames]

We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.

Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.

But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.

part of the charm of the league is the head to head and rivalry thing rather than just being a spreadsheet straight up points scored. the league has been going coming up a decade and we have very engaged players (all friendly) who contribute, including power rankings and owners adding colour around their franchise in terms of stadium names etc. it's all good fun.

4 divisions and a 13 game season works as:
6 games - your three divisional teams home and away
4 games - rotating around the other three divisions as per nfl
3 games - play the teams who finished in the equivalent position to you last year (again a la NFL, 4th place plays other 4th places etc)

We also have a +5 point homefield advantage to incentivise play-off seedings and give a bit more colour to home games in regular season (week 8 is 'London' game week so both teams get +5 to ensure each team plays 6 home, 6 away and one neutral)

then weeks 14-16 are standard play-offs. so the head to head is a big part of our league, it has worked well so far and I am a bit loath to change that now

Total points as tie breaker shouldn't decrease rivalries throughout the season. It just simplifies the process. It's way too messy as it currently stands.

[Nascent]

It's actually quite easy given your rules... Since there is no H2H involving all of the teams, it doesn't apply thus the first team in is based on total points (team A). You then go back and start again to determine the next team in and B defeated C in H2H.

agreed.

[Nascent]

We always use total points after record for the first tie breaker. That way, you don't have to account for scheduling inequities. I'd switch to total points as tie breaker #1 for 2019 followed by H2H as tiebreaker #2.

Besides, everyone has a bad week now and then. It would stink to have a superior team overall during the course of the season (by total points) miss out on the playoffs because another team happened to beat them in a given week during the league schedule.

But for this season, might as well play by the rules you've established and award the playoff spots to Team A and Team B for the reasons already presented.

part of the charm of the league is the head to head and rivalry thing rather than just being a spreadsheet straight up points scored. the league has been going coming up a decade and we have very engaged players (all friendly) who contribute, including power rankings and owners adding colour around their franchise in terms of stadium names etc. it's all good fun.

4 divisions and a 13 game season works as:
6 games - your three divisional teams home and away
4 games - rotating around the other three divisions as per nfl
3 games - play the teams who finished in the equivalent position to you last year (again a la NFL, 4th place plays other 4th places etc)

We also have a +5 point homefield advantage to incentivise play-off seedings and give a bit more colour to home games in regular season (week 8 is 'London' game week so both teams get +5 to ensure each team plays 6 home, 6 away and one neutral)

then weeks 14-16 are standard play-offs. so the head to head is a big part of our league, it has worked well so far and I am a bit loath to change that now

Total points as tie breaker shouldn't decrease rivalries throughout the season. It just simplifies the process. It's way too messy as it currently stands.

messy when i am confusing things haha I like the way it is described above by skip and jigga94. v simple. no room for future confusion there i think