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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:40 am
by jomaed
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:04 am

Now you're changing the argument entirely.

Do I think Bell is better than Conner and Samuels: Yes I do.

Do I think Bell is "clearly elite": No I dont. Not after what I've seen that system do this year.

When all you have is the "eye test" to stake your claim on one side; that is the equivalent to someone saying "because I said so".

Now all those guys you mentioned that had very RB friendly systems, which one of those studs that looked elite left that system and maintained stud status elsewhere? That's what you're saying Bell will do right? Since he is "clearly elite." Those backs leave that system and arent heard from again. Why? Because they were as much a product of their system as they were talented.
So we won't know if Zeek is elite until he changes teams or Dallas changes their system then?

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:45 am
by Forza_Azzurri
Neither Lev Bell or Hunt possess elite athletic profiles nor were they drafted in the first round ... I think it's a fair assessment to suggest they benefit considerably from their situations.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:14 am
by jenkins.math
jomaed wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:40 am
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:04 am

Now you're changing the argument entirely.

Do I think Bell is better than Conner and Samuels: Yes I do.

Do I think Bell is "clearly elite": No I dont. Not after what I've seen that system do this year.

When all you have is the "eye test" to stake your claim on one side; that is the equivalent to someone saying "because I said so".

Now all those guys you mentioned that had very RB friendly systems, which one of those studs that looked elite left that system and maintained stud status elsewhere? That's what you're saying Bell will do right? Since he is "clearly elite." Those backs leave that system and arent heard from again. Why? Because they were as much a product of their system as they were talented.
So we won't know if Zeek is elite until he changes teams or Dallas changes their system then?
Zeke was a top 5 pick. Not to mention there hasn't been another player in that system has produced at the same level production wise as Zeke. Where as James Conner had almost identical production to Lev Bell through 9 games this season.

But I do believe Zeke benefits from his system for sure.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:55 am
by Valhalla
Moss was a product of Culpepper and Brady...because look what he did in Oakland

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:34 am
by Cameron Giles
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:04 am
Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:54 am
Again, you fail to accept that any system in the right situation can continue to produce quality RB production without a premier RB behind it. Alfred Morris put up big numbers when Elliott was suspended. Thomas Rawls put up numbers when Lynch was out. There are plenty of examples. The Shanahans have a history of taking late round RBs and making them stars in their scheme.

If you can't legitimately recognize that Bell is different from the other two backs, then I really don't know what to tell you. It's not even meeting the baseline of an honest conversation.
Now you're changing the argument entirely.

Do I think Bell is better than Conner and Samuels: Yes I do.

Do I think Bell is "clearly elite": No I dont. Not after what I've seen that system do this year.

When all you have is the "eye test" to stake your claim on one side; that is the equivalent to someone saying "because I said so".

Now all those guys you mentioned that had very RB friendly systems, which one of those studs that looked elite left that system and maintained stud status elsewhere? That's what you're saying Bell will do right? Since he is "clearly elite." Those backs leave that system and arent heard from again. Why? Because they were as much a product of their system as they were talented.
So if Todd Gurley and Saquon Barkley get injured and their backup gives the team RB1 production, then we should conclude that Gurley and Barkley are system backs.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:37 am
by Cameron Giles
Valhalla wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:55 am
Moss was a product of Culpepper and Brady...because look what he did in Oakland
And Brady is a product of the Patriots system, because look at what Cassel and Garropolo did when he was out.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:52 am
by jenkins.math
Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:34 am
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:04 am
Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:54 am
Again, you fail to accept that any system in the right situation can continue to produce quality RB production without a premier RB behind it. Alfred Morris put up big numbers when Elliott was suspended. Thomas Rawls put up numbers when Lynch was out. There are plenty of examples. The Shanahans have a history of taking late round RBs and making them stars in their scheme.

If you can't legitimately recognize that Bell is different from the other two backs, then I really don't know what to tell you. It's not even meeting the baseline of an honest conversation.
Now you're changing the argument entirely.

Do I think Bell is better than Conner and Samuels: Yes I do.

Do I think Bell is "clearly elite": No I dont. Not after what I've seen that system do this year.

When all you have is the "eye test" to stake your claim on one side; that is the equivalent to someone saying "because I said so".

Now all those guys you mentioned that had very RB friendly systems, which one of those studs that looked elite left that system and maintained stud status elsewhere? That's what you're saying Bell will do right? Since he is "clearly elite." Those backs leave that system and arent heard from again. Why? Because they were as much a product of their system as they were talented.
So if Todd Gurley and Saquon Barkley get injured and their backup gives the team RB1 production, then we should conclude that Gurley and Barkley are system backs.
Deangelo Williams led the NFL in rushing after 4 weeks in 2015. James Conner puts up nearly identical stats as Mr. Elite Lev Bell through 9 games this season. Then a rookie, who wasn't even a full time RB in college, runs for 150 yards in his 2nd career start in this system. James Conner I ccould buy into being better than people thought. He was a pretty highly thought of RB until he got cancer, and I assume recovering from cancer fully might be a multi year process. But when a college TE comes in and does that last week, that opened my eyes big time.

So yes, if Gurley or Saquon go down, and there is a 3 year track record of every single RB that comes in and produces RB1 numbers, then you clearly have to look at them being more system guys than we thought. You can still be a good player in a good system, but the sample size in Pitt is getting hard to ignore.

It's not like this is 1 guy. It's 3 different players over 3 years with different ages, styles, college production, draft pedigree, etc all putting up RB1 numbers when Lev Bell goes out. How many more RBs have to do this in Pitt? How much larger does the sample size have to be?

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:59 am
by ninotoreS
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:52 am
Deangelo Williams led the NFL in rushing after 4 weeks in 2015. James Conner puts up nearly identical stats as Mr. Elite Lev Bell through 9 games this season. Then a rookie, who wasn't even a full time RB in college, runs for 150 yards in his 2nd career start in this system. James Conner I ccould buy into being better than people thought. He was a pretty highly thought of RB until he got cancer, and I assume recovering from cancer fully might be a multi year process. But when a college TE comes in and does that last week, that opened my eyes big time.

So yes, if Gurley or Saquon go down, and there is a 3 year track record of every single RB that comes in and produces RB1 numbers, then you clearly have to look at them being more system guys than we thought. You can still be a good player in a good system, but the sample size in Pitt is getting hard to ignore.

It's not like this is 1 guy. It's 3 different players over 3 years with different ages, styles, college production, draft pedigree, etc all putting up RB1 numbers when Lev Bell goes out. How many more RBs have to do this in Pitt? How much larger does the sample size have to be?
Man has a point. The facts paint it clearly.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:02 pm
by trc
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:48 am
Saying Bell or Hunt is better than (insert RB here) is entirely different than saying Bell is "clearly elite" when the system continues to produce RBs. You have no facts or legs to stand on in this. You're just dug into your stance and using the ole "eye test" as your reasoning because your stance is crumbling and you dont want to admit it.
Have you bothered looking at his games?
And compare to Conner/Samuels?

Your arguments scream boxscore-only-analysis.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:04 pm
by Valhalla
ninotoreS wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:59 am
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:52 am
Deangelo Williams led the NFL in rushing after 4 weeks in 2015. James Conner puts up nearly identical stats as Mr. Elite Lev Bell through 9 games this season. Then a rookie, who wasn't even a full time RB in college, runs for 150 yards in his 2nd career start in this system. James Conner I ccould buy into being better than people thought. He was a pretty highly thought of RB until he got cancer, and I assume recovering from cancer fully might be a multi year process. But when a college TE comes in and does that last week, that opened my eyes big time.

So yes, if Gurley or Saquon go down, and there is a 3 year track record of every single RB that comes in and produces RB1 numbers, then you clearly have to look at them being more system guys than we thought. You can still be a good player in a good system, but the sample size in Pitt is getting hard to ignore.

It's not like this is 1 guy. It's 3 different players over 3 years with different ages, styles, college production, draft pedigree, etc all putting up RB1 numbers when Lev Bell goes out. How many more RBs have to do this in Pitt? How much larger does the sample size have to be?
Man has a point. The facts paint it clearly.
He does have a point, no doubt. Yet you also have to consider that DeAngelo was ALSO a very talented RB that mostly had durability issues. Maybe the Steelers are just BETTER than your average team at scouting RB talent...

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:47 pm
by mild
Piling on here - to bring it back to Samuels, calling him a "College TE" is kind of doing a disservice to his (readily available) film. He was a swiss army knife that caught passes and made plays, be it running routes, screens, blocking, or toting the rock.

He's a good football player, and he's running behind one of the better lines in football, with HOF-level receiver(s) running on the outside. At best, he would be third on the totem pole of "players to stop" from a defensive perspective. It is not that surprising that he both found success with his talent AND also dominated a great OL matchup against a bad defense.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:52 pm
by Cameron Giles
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:52 am
Deangelo Williams led the NFL in rushing after 4 weeks in 2015. James Conner puts up nearly identical stats as Mr. Elite Lev Bell through 9 games this season. Then a rookie, who wasn't even a full time RB in college, runs for 150 yards in his 2nd career start in this system. James Conner I ccould buy into being better than people thought. He was a pretty highly thought of RB until he got cancer, and I assume recovering from cancer fully might be a multi year process. But when a college TE comes in and does that last week, that opened my eyes big time.

So yes, if Gurley or Saquon go down, and there is a 3 year track record of every single RB that comes in and produces RB1 numbers, then you clearly have to look at them being more system guys than we thought. You can still be a good player in a good system, but the sample size in Pitt is getting hard to ignore.

It's not like this is 1 guy. It's 3 different players over 3 years with different ages, styles, college production, draft pedigree, etc all putting up RB1 numbers when Lev Bell goes out. How many more RBs have to do this in Pitt? How much larger does the sample size have to be?
This is a really flawed way of thinking. Multiple things can be true:

1. Pittsburgh has the offensive line, scheme and coaching to maximize strengths of various RB's without needing a truly elite RB. Above the guy who's in the backfield, the scheme, line and playcalling matter a lot more. It's why the Steelers made the correct call in not paying Bell.

2. Le'Veon Bell is truly an elite RB, who was also in an elite situation. Just like Zeke landing in Dallas, McCoy being in an Andy Reid offense and Gurley being in a Sean McVay offense.

Todd Gurley struggled in a Jeff Fisher offense, but looks like an MVP candidate in Sean McVay's scheme, with an improved offensive line, coaching and better playcalling. His backup Malcolm Brown has 106 carries, for a 4.32 YPC in the past two seasons and has shown signs of being a more than competent replacement if Gurley gets injured. Gurley is in one of the best situations in the NFL for an RB, but has consistently displayed elite skills, ability and traits that distance him from the situation. He would not be a system back if there is a long track record of RB's producing at a similar rate in his absence.

Bell arguably has the best WR instincts of any RB in football. Him, Kamara, David Johnson, CMC among others are very, very close. He has excellent footwork, gets a good release off the line and creates separation consistently. Someone like James Conner is certainly capable of catching the ball and producing similar basic stats if the volume is there on check downs , but he can't be used in the same way as a WR all over the field. He also doesn't have the vision, patience, or cutting ability that Bell has in the hole.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:33 pm
by Phaded
Can we not just agree that no player is good and everything is about scheme?

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:05 pm
by jenkins.math
Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:52 pm
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:52 am
Deangelo Williams led the NFL in rushing after 4 weeks in 2015. James Conner puts up nearly identical stats as Mr. Elite Lev Bell through 9 games this season. Then a rookie, who wasn't even a full time RB in college, runs for 150 yards in his 2nd career start in this system. James Conner I ccould buy into being better than people thought. He was a pretty highly thought of RB until he got cancer, and I assume recovering from cancer fully might be a multi year process. But when a college TE comes in and does that last week, that opened my eyes big time.

So yes, if Gurley or Saquon go down, and there is a 3 year track record of every single RB that comes in and produces RB1 numbers, then you clearly have to look at them being more system guys than we thought. You can still be a good player in a good system, but the sample size in Pitt is getting hard to ignore.

It's not like this is 1 guy. It's 3 different players over 3 years with different ages, styles, college production, draft pedigree, etc all putting up RB1 numbers when Lev Bell goes out. How many more RBs have to do this in Pitt? How much larger does the sample size have to be?
This is a really flawed way of thinking. Multiple things can be true:

1. Pittsburgh has the offensive line, scheme and coaching to maximize strengths of various RB's without needing a truly elite RB. Above the guy who's in the backfield, the scheme, line and playcalling matter a lot more. It's why the Steelers made the correct call in not paying Bell.

2. Le'Veon Bell is truly an elite RB, who was also in an elite situation. Just like Zeke landing in Dallas, McCoy being in an Andy Reid offense and Gurley being in a Sean McVay offense.

Todd Gurley struggled in a Jeff Fisher offense, but looks like an MVP candidate in Sean McVay's scheme, with an improved offensive line, coaching and better playcalling. His backup Malcolm Brown has 106 carries, for a 4.32 YPC in the past two seasons and has shown signs of being a more than competent replacement if Gurley gets injured. Gurley is in one of the best situations in the NFL for an RB, but has consistently displayed elite skills, ability and traits that distance him from the situation. He would not be a system back if there is a long track record of RB's producing at a similar rate in his absence.

Bell arguably has the best WR instincts of any RB in football. Him, Kamara, David Johnson, CMC among others are very, very close. He has excellent footwork, gets a good release off the line and creates separation consistently. Someone like James Conner is certainly capable of catching the ball and producing similar basic stats if the volume is there on check downs , but he can't be used in the same way as a WR all over the field. He also doesn't have the vision, patience, or cutting ability that Bell has in the hole.
Lev Bell is elite no matter what data is presented. Why? Because you say so. Got it man. Let's move on.

Re: Jaylen Samuels

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 pm
by Cameron Giles
Phaded wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:33 pm
Can we not just agree that no player is good and everything is about scheme?
Basically.

Barry Sanders was probably a system back too.
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:05 pm
Lev Bell is elite no matter what data is presented. Why? Because you say so. Got it man. Let's move on.
I literally just explained it. But, you have James Conner on your team so I don't expect you to be objective.