Jaylen Samuels

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Forza_Azzurri
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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby Forza_Azzurri » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm

Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell

16 Team PPR | QB (1) RB (2-4) WR (2-5) TE (1-2) K (1) | DT (1-2) DE (2-4) LB (2-5) CB (3-6) S (2-5)

|QB| R. Wilson, J. Allen, D. Carr, D. Lock, E. Stick (taxi)
|RB| A. Kamara, J. Jacobs, J. Mixon, L. Murray, R. Anderson (IR)
|WR| C. Godwin, D.J. Moore, D.K. Metcalf, M. Gallup, , J. Ross, Da. Moore
|TE| J. Hollister, M. Gesicki, K. Rudolph, T. Eifert, I. Thomas, M. LaCosse, R. Gronkowski
|K| B. Maher
|DT| S. Richardson, Q. Williams, T. Bryan, T. Hill (taxi)
|DE| J. Clowney, Y. Ngakoue, J. Pierre-Paul, D. Barnett, T. Charlton, E. Ansah, A. Key (IR), J. Sweat (taxi)
|LB| L. Vander Esch, D. Trevathan, C. Holcomb, N. Gerry, M. Kendricks, S. Dion Hamilton, S. Ebukam, T.J. Edwards, M. Jefferson, V. Joseph (IR), R. Foster (IR), K. Beckwith (IR), D. Cole (IR), S. Eguavoen (taxi)
|CB| S. Gilmore, M. Peters, D. Trufant, G. Conley, B. Jones, G. Haley
|S| M. Fitzpatrick, T. Walker, X. Woods, E. Thomas, E. Murray
|2020 PICKS| #1.03, 1.12, 3.02 & 6.15
|2021 PICKS| #1, #2, #3

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby Cameron Giles » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pm

Forza_Azzurri wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm
Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell
Mixon is a system back too. Did you see Gio's numbers when he doesn't play?

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby Forza_Azzurri » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:44 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pm
Forza_Azzurri wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm
Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell
Mixon is a system back too. Did you see Gio's numbers when he doesn't play?
Mixon is the anti-system back, because when Gio is in the game they throw to him & run out of pass formations. For most of Mixon's early-career, the Bengals have telegraphed very obviously a run-first play call.

16 Team PPR | QB (1) RB (2-4) WR (2-5) TE (1-2) K (1) | DT (1-2) DE (2-4) LB (2-5) CB (3-6) S (2-5)

|QB| R. Wilson, J. Allen, D. Carr, D. Lock, E. Stick (taxi)
|RB| A. Kamara, J. Jacobs, J. Mixon, L. Murray, R. Anderson (IR)
|WR| C. Godwin, D.J. Moore, D.K. Metcalf, M. Gallup, , J. Ross, Da. Moore
|TE| J. Hollister, M. Gesicki, K. Rudolph, T. Eifert, I. Thomas, M. LaCosse, R. Gronkowski
|K| B. Maher
|DT| S. Richardson, Q. Williams, T. Bryan, T. Hill (taxi)
|DE| J. Clowney, Y. Ngakoue, J. Pierre-Paul, D. Barnett, T. Charlton, E. Ansah, A. Key (IR), J. Sweat (taxi)
|LB| L. Vander Esch, D. Trevathan, C. Holcomb, N. Gerry, M. Kendricks, S. Dion Hamilton, S. Ebukam, T.J. Edwards, M. Jefferson, V. Joseph (IR), R. Foster (IR), K. Beckwith (IR), D. Cole (IR), S. Eguavoen (taxi)
|CB| S. Gilmore, M. Peters, D. Trufant, G. Conley, B. Jones, G. Haley
|S| M. Fitzpatrick, T. Walker, X. Woods, E. Thomas, E. Murray
|2020 PICKS| #1.03, 1.12, 3.02 & 6.15
|2021 PICKS| #1, #2, #3

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby jenkins.math » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:48 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:34 pm
Phaded wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:33 pm
Can we not just agree that no player is good and everything is about scheme?
Basically.

Barry Sanders was probably a system back too.
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:05 pm
Lev Bell is elite no matter what data is presented. Why? Because you say so. Got it man. Let's move on.
I literally just explained it. But, you have James Conner on your team so I don't expect you to be objective.
I've been objective the entire time. We arent even talking Conner. It's a Jaylen Samuels thread.

This will be my last reply to you on this topic, and I honestly doubt you will answer the question directly because that isnt your style.

Does the success of these other backs give you any pause at all that Lev Bell may not be as elite as you originally thought? Or is everything that happened this season completely irrelevant to your elite grade on Lev Bell?
14 team dynasty, 25 man roster, keep 14, .5 PPR
QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 2Flex, D/ST, K, DL, LB, DE
QB: Ryan, Mayfield
RB: Barkley, Kerryon Johnson, Gus Edwards, Pollard, Brian Hill
WR: OBJ, Mike Evans, Juju, Cooks, Corey Davis, Dede Westbrook, Fitz
TE: Njoku, Jonnu
K: Slye
D/ST: Titans, Eagles
DL: Heyward
LB: Littleton
DB: Bell

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby Cameron Giles » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:03 pm

jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:48 pm
Does the success of these other backs give you any pause at all that Lev Bell may not be as elite as you originally thought? Or is everything that happened this season completely irrelevant to your elite grade on Lev Bell?
I've already explained it to you.

Your mindset is that only one thing can be true. However, it's entirely reasonable that multiple things are true.

1. Pittsburgh has consistently graded out as at least an above-average offensive line in run blocking over the last five seasons: 13th (2018), 7th (2017), 3rd (2016), 8th (2015) and 6th (2014) in adjusted line yards.

Offensive line play is the biggest factor in the run game. If you have a really good offensive line, you can put essentially any replacement level player or better back there and get great results. Tackle on playcalling, schemes, and the respect you have to give the WR options, and it's a fantastic situation for RB's to land in. It explains why an older DeAngelo Williams, James Conner and Jaylen Samuels can step in and produce. It's also why Pittsburgh made the correct call in not giving Bell the deal he wants. It would be irresponsible to if you have faith in your offensive line long-term.

2. Le'Veon Bell is an elite RB, who is in an elite situation.

He's arguably the best WR from the position in football. He can lineup in the slot, on the outside. He gets a good release off the line and shows excellent footwork to create separation from defenders. It's why the Steelers can run him on such a wide variety of routes. In the run game, he brings elite patience, vision, cutback ability at high volume. The bonus is that his run style rarely exposes him to taking big hits and allows the large workload. On top of it, he's been one of the league's best RB's in blitz pickup and pass protection. Bell is arguably the most complete RB in the NFL because of these things. These skills are clear separators from what is an elite situation. However, this doesn't mean that Bell can maximize his ability behind a poor offensive line, or in a trash offense. It's the same reason why Todd Gurley did not look great under Jeff Fisher, but looks like an all-time special RB in Sean McVay's offense with a vastly improved line.

The play of Conner and Samuels should not give you pause that Bell isn't an elite RB. It should merely confirm that all RB's are expendable and that Pittsburgh has consistently produced one of the league's top schemes and offensive lines to maximize that expendability.

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby jenkins.math » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:16 pm

Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:03 pm
jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:48 pm
Does the success of these other backs give you any pause at all that Lev Bell may not be as elite as you originally thought? Or is everything that happened this season completely irrelevant to your elite grade on Lev Bell?
I've already explained it to you.

Your mindset is that only one thing can be true. However, it's entirely reasonable that multiple things are true.

1. Pittsburgh has consistently graded out as at least an above-average offensive line in run blocking over the last five seasons: 13th (2018), 7th (2017), 3rd (2016), 8th (2015) and 6th (2014) in adjusted line yards.

Offensive line play is the biggest factor in the run game. If you have a really good offensive line, you can put essentially any replacement level player or better back there and get great results. Tackle on playcalling, schemes, and the respect you have to give the WR options, and it's a fantastic situation for RB's to land in. It explains why an older DeAngelo Williams, James Conner and Jaylen Samuels can step in and produce. It's also why Pittsburgh made the correct call in not giving Bell the deal he wants. It would be irresponsible to if you have faith in your offensive line long-term.

2. Le'Veon Bell is an elite RB, who is in an elite situation.

He's arguably the best WR from the position in football. He can lineup in the slot, on the outside. He gets a good release off the line and shows excellent footwork to create separation from defenders. It's why the Steelers can run him on such a wide variety of routes. In the run game, he brings elite patience, vision, cutback ability at high volume. The bonus is that his run style rarely exposes him to taking big hits and allows the large workload. On top of it, he's been one of the league's best RB's in blitz pickup and pass protection. Bell is arguably the most complete RB in the NFL because of these things. These skills are clear separators from what is an elite situation. However, this doesn't mean that Bell can maximize his ability behind a poor offensive line, or in a trash offense. It's the same reason why Todd Gurley did not look great under Jeff Fisher, but looks like an all-time special RB in Sean McVay's offense with a vastly improved line.

The play of Conner and Samuels should not give you pause that Bell isn't an elite RB. It should merely confirm that all RB's are expendable and that Pittsburgh has consistently produced one of the league's top schemes and offensive lines to maximize that expendability.
I'm assuming you're saying what's happened is irrelevant to your view of Bell. All I wanted to hear. Thanks.
14 team dynasty, 25 man roster, keep 14, .5 PPR
QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 2Flex, D/ST, K, DL, LB, DE
QB: Ryan, Mayfield
RB: Barkley, Kerryon Johnson, Gus Edwards, Pollard, Brian Hill
WR: OBJ, Mike Evans, Juju, Cooks, Corey Davis, Dede Westbrook, Fitz
TE: Njoku, Jonnu
K: Slye
D/ST: Titans, Eagles
DL: Heyward
LB: Littleton
DB: Bell

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby Cameron Giles » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:22 pm

Forza_Azzurri wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:44 pm
Cameron Giles wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pm
Forza_Azzurri wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:40 pm
Seeing as this thread is not divisive & polarizing enough ... let me throw this out there: Mixon > Bell
Mixon is a system back too. Did you see Gio's numbers when he doesn't play?
Mixon is the anti-system back, because when Gio is in the game they throw to him & run out of pass formations. For most of Mixon's early-career, the Bengals have telegraphed very obviously a run-first play call.
Nope, Mixon is a system back. That's how it works.

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby Valhalla » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:54 pm

Great systems are driven by great players. Bell is great, and yes, I say that by watching him play, so it’s subjective. Conner and Samuels are pretty damn good too. That’s my subjective take from watching them play.
Edit- oh and Samuels is more “Bell-like” than Conner. Again just by my eyes

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby trc » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:06 am

jenkins.math wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:16 pm


I'm assuming you're saying what's happened is irrelevant to your view of Bell. All I wanted to hear. Thanks.
Stop feeding this troll
12 team ppr | 0.5 per reception | 4pts pass TD | 6pts rec/rush TD | 1pts per 25 passing yard | 1 pts per 10 rec/rush yard
Start: 1QB, 2 RB, 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB/WR/TE

QBs: Mahomes - Garoppolo - Teddy B
RBs: Zeke - Chubb - Gio - Ito Smith - Mark Walton - Darrell Williams - Crowell - Gaskin
WRs: OBJ - Kupp - Godwin - DJ Chark - Sammy Watkins - Corey Davis - N'Keal Harry - JJAW - DT
TEs: Jonnu Smith - Herndon - Trey Burton

Rebuild progress -> http://forum.dynastyleaguefootball.com/ ... 6&t=150498

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby JFever » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:07 am

Despite all of this, When Conner is healthy, I'm betting he will be the primary ball carrier for Pittsburgh. Why? Because he is talented enough, well rounded, and fits their system. He is a good blocker, runs hard, he isn't "elite" at catching passes out of the backfield, but... he is dang good at it, and the staff loves him. He finishes strong and over the course of his 9-10 game stretch, he outproduced the elite L.Bell in any 9 game stretch Bell ever had in the NFL. So, lets not minimize or sweep that under the rug. We are anointing J.Samuels as being on the same tier as Conner after Samuels was active in the starting role in just two games. Lets look closer at the sample size and the opposition in those games before we get all revved up about Samuels being in the conversation with L.Bell and or J.Conner. Samuels first game playing - I felt he was less than impressive. I felt he was too hesitant, too patient, and less than decisive with his decisions. He left yards on the field and frankly, I came away less than impressed. He was ok and he filled in adequately. His 2nd game, he put up rb1 numbers. Is it because he himself was SO much better and made improvements? - or is it perhaps a combination of him improving a bit, being less nervous, and also a reflection of the opposing run defense, game flow, game script, and play calling? I don't see it as complicated in the least. I think far too many fantasy enthusiasts get too heavily influenced by recent events and weigh them heavier than events from just a few weeks back. Seems strange to me but, it is human nature.

L.Bell was not a highly drafted first round prospect. Bell was not viewed in his draft class like D.Williams was viewed in his at the time of his draft. L.Bell didn't get drafted in fantasy drafts at the 1.01 or even 1.02 or even 1.03 spot in many leagues I'm assuming. Heck, I looked back and in my one long standing league, Bell was drafted AFTER M.Ball, and T.Austin. Anyway, He is most definitely talented but, more importantly, his skill fit the system he was drafted into. You all remember Willie Parker? How about Rashard Mendenhall? Very similar to now.... J.Conner's skill fits the RB friendly system he is currently in and in that light - it makes a hell of a lot of sense for Pittsburgh to NOT overpay him as they know / knew that they could get the production they need with Conner and or J.Samuels.

From all of this we can take a few things. L.Bell is talented but talent doesn't always equate to fantasy gold when it comes to the rb position. It's more like a puzzle piece that needs to fit. So, Bell's fantasy production is likely to take a dip from where it was.
James Conner may not be an elite talent, but, since the coaching staff loves him, when he is healthy, he will be a rb1 producing rb with J.Samuels providing very nice affordable and versatile depth.
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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby xxironskullxx » Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:28 am

It's looking like Conner will miss another week...where do you think that puts Samuel's in Yahoo leagues where he has TE eligibility this week?
10 Team (15 Keepers) - 1QB 2RB 3WR 1Flex 1TE - Standard Scoring Full Point PPR

QB - A. Rodgers, D. Prescott, L.Jackson, J. Winston, J. Allen
RB - E. Elliott, J. Mixon, N. Chubb, L. McCoy, J. Samuels, L. Murray, J. Adams, K. Ball age
WR - A. Cooper, A. Jeffery, C. Davis, T. Boyd, G. Tate, J. Reynolds, C. Kirk, Mar. Jones
TE - E. Engram, O.J Howard, I. Thomas, M. Lacosse, C. Uzomah

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby jenkins.math » Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:32 am

xxironskullxx wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:28 am
It's looking like Conner will miss another week...where do you think that puts Samuel's in Yahoo leagues where he has TE eligibility this week?
As a TE, he has to be top 3 with Kelce and Ertz right?
14 team dynasty, 25 man roster, keep 14, .5 PPR
QB, 2RB, 2WR, TE, 2Flex, D/ST, K, DL, LB, DE
QB: Ryan, Mayfield
RB: Barkley, Kerryon Johnson, Gus Edwards, Pollard, Brian Hill
WR: OBJ, Mike Evans, Juju, Cooks, Corey Davis, Dede Westbrook, Fitz
TE: Njoku, Jonnu
K: Slye
D/ST: Titans, Eagles
DL: Heyward
LB: Littleton
DB: Bell

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby xxironskullxx » Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:02 am

jenkins.math wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:32 am
xxironskullxx wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 8:28 am
It's looking like Conner will miss another week...where do you think that puts Samuel's in Yahoo leagues where he has TE eligibility this week?
As a TE, he has to be top 3 with Kelce and Ertz right?
I'm thinking the same thing. I have Engram (w/Odell out he's been good in full point PPR) in my one league and I'm benching him for Samuel's. Hopefully I don't regret it if Samuels falls flat in a tough matchup vs. NO lol
10 Team (15 Keepers) - 1QB 2RB 3WR 1Flex 1TE - Standard Scoring Full Point PPR

QB - A. Rodgers, D. Prescott, L.Jackson, J. Winston, J. Allen
RB - E. Elliott, J. Mixon, N. Chubb, L. McCoy, J. Samuels, L. Murray, J. Adams, K. Ball age
WR - A. Cooper, A. Jeffery, C. Davis, T. Boyd, G. Tate, J. Reynolds, C. Kirk, Mar. Jones
TE - E. Engram, O.J Howard, I. Thomas, M. Lacosse, C. Uzomah

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby BigJoeWall72 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:52 am

Bumping this and bringing it forward to Samuels' 2019 outlook and beyond...

I'm looking at having to make roster cuts in a week's time, and I just don't know what to make of Samuels... He produced pretty good numbers down the stretch in 2018 when he was the lead guy for a minute, but how do we think he will be used now that Conner is back at full health?

Full blown RBBC?
3rd down back?
Hardly at all?

What kind of trade value is everyone seeing out there? What's your buy/hold/sell tipping point?
1: 12-team PPR, all TD=6 pts, tackle heavy, start 22 (11-O, 11-D, 3 Flex each)
Stafford, Wentz, Minshew, Trubisky
CMC, M.Ingram, Dam.Williams, McKissic, Ito
Hopkins, OBJ, T.Hill, Landry, Cobb, E.Sanders, Edelman, C.Kirk, P.Williams [IR], Isabella [TS]
Kelce, Hollister, Ebron, Oliver
J.Bosa, Larry.O, D.Payne, Taco, R.Quinn
Hicks, Hitchens, Littleton, T.Edmunds, Warner, Reddick, Biegel, Kwiatkoski
Collins, J.Adams, K.Neal [IR], S.Williams, M.Hyde
2011, 2013, 2014 Champ

2: 14-team balanced scoring (TE super-premium), start 18 (9-O, 9-D, 2 Flex each)
Mahomes, Rodgers
M.Gordon, Dam.Williams, C.Carson, Lindsay, McKissic
Keenan, Landry, Golladay, Edelman, T.Boyd, Demaryius, Pettis, D.Johnson [TS]
Kelce, Olsen, D.Waller, Oliver, Warring [IR]
Buckner, Cox, D.Lawrence, T.Flowers, D.Hand
Leonard, Wagner, B.Martinez, Kwon, Roquan, Trevathan, B.Copeland, Kwiatkoski
J.Adams, J.Johnson [IR], R.Harrison, Teamer, T.Wilson
2015, 2016, 2018 Champ

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Re: Jaylen Samuels

Postby Prison_Mike » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:02 pm

BigJoeWall72 wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:52 am
Bumping this and bringing it forward to Samuels' 2019 outlook and beyond...

I'm looking at having to make roster cuts in a week's time, and I just don't know what to make of Samuels... He produced pretty good numbers down the stretch in 2018 when he was the lead guy for a minute, but how do we think he will be used now that Conner is back at full health?

Full blown RBBC?
3rd down back?
Hardly at all?

What kind of trade value is everyone seeing out there? What's your buy/hold/sell tipping point?
I view Samuels as an elite handcuff, but I think those who envision him as a consistent weekly flex play with a lot of stand-alone value will be disappointed. As a fan of both the Steelers & Jaylen Samuel, I would love to see him get significantly more involved in the offense; But I just don't see it with Conner healthy

I could be wrong though, I've been wrong once or twice before in my life


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